Bible Verses Ignored, by Rapture theory

[Georges]

Re: Paul Is Writing About Things "Hidden In God"

Hi George:

Thank you for writing.

George >> FWIW, I agree with Terral on this.

In regard to JT's statement found above, Terral, there are those who don't consider the last week of the 70 to be a complete 7 year period of violent tribulation. Many of them only consider the last 3 1/2 years as the "tribulation period", the tribulation period only includes the time of God's wrath. Of course there are those "such as Lutherans" who do not believe in a tribulation period at all.

Daniel’s ‘one week’ is still divided into two parts and the number of days equal 3.5 years almost exactly. Did Christ begin the wars and rumors of wars AFTER Matthew 24:15 and the appearance of the ‘abomination of desolation’?? No. False prophets rise up and “mislead many†back in Matthew 24:5 and we see famines and earthquakes in verse 7. Christ says “they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you†back in Matthew 24:9 and ‘lawlessness is increased’ in verse 12. The antichrist will destroy many through the ‘peace’ of the first 3.5 years and even more through the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21) that follows.

[quote:4a6e8]George >> I see the last week of the 70 as a 7 year period known as the "time of Jacob's trouble". I see the events (seals, trumpets, bowls) of course as a timeline event, with the events happening concurrently and not successively (simulating what the OT describes as the "labor pains") . The first event, the first seal begins the 70th week. That the 2nd seal happens early in the week is an indication that there is "tribulation" going on. Where I think the mistake comes in is that many Christians think that the tribulation involves future Christians.....where in fact it involves mankind and nature in total.

Very good, George, but please forgive if I am reluctant to even give comment on the 2nd Seal and other ‘end of the age’ events that we will see from heaven. Paul had no need to write about the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2), because we are taken with this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†COMES (2 Thessalonians 2:2) or when that Period BEGINS. Revelation is all about what happens AFTER we are taken (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and the great and terrible part takes place at the very END of that same 1000 Years. You guys have the events STARTING and the ENDING the same 1000 Year Period crammed together.

George >> The last week of the 70 is still a 7 year tribulation period....beginining with mild birthpains increasing in intensity until the birth of the Messianic Kingdom. Gotta have the labor pains before the birth, in this case 7 years worth.

The Kingdom must be restored and the Temple FIRST (Matthew 17:10-11), before the Antichrist can appear 1000 Years later to make all of that desolate. If the Antichrist appeared today (NOT), then where is the Temple for him to enter the Holy Place (Matthew 24:15)? How can the “gospel of the kingdom†(Matthew 24:14) go to the “Whole World,†when we do NOT even preach that gospel today? Again, you guys are mixing the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24 and Revelation with the START of the same 1000 years Day of the Lord and apparently have no room in your theology for the vast differences. There is no such thing as any 7 years of tribulation leading up to the “Day of the Lord†beginning. That is foolishness, because that day comes like a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). Daniel is counting the days to the END OF THE AGE (Daniel 12:11-13, Matthew 24:15-31) and not that 1000 Years BEGINNING some 1000 years EARLIER. Paul is describing this 2000 Years Mystery Time that Daniel was not given to see. Daniel sees ONLY the ‘end of the age’ that Christ is describing and events that take place some 1000 Years from today at the ‘end of the age.’ Larkin and most everyone here has moved the Tribulation 1000 years to the START of the 1000 Years, instead of placing it at the ‘end of the age’ like the Bible says. My diagram above is very much accurate. Here it is again for this page:

Daniel can see over into the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†perfectly to the ‘end of the age.’ However, he cannot see anything in the red “Mystery Revealed†section leading up to our “Body Rapture†(1 Thessalonians 4:17) that STARTS that same 1000 Years period. Our Rapture STARTS the 1000 Years that Satan is in the Pit and Christ’s ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24 END the same 1000 Years. You and I are living just about the time represented by “Today†on that timeline that STARTS the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Satan is chained at our Body Rapture (not shown) and is released to participate in the Great Tribulation (in purple) at the ‘end of the age.’

In Christ,

Terral[/quote:4a6e8]


Terral.....I just responded to your other post (indepth). It took me 2 hours....and when I hit submit....I lost it....I had typed a great deal showing where you were in err, and don't have the heart to go do it again......can't believe that all that typing and now it's gone.....

To sum up what I did type......I can't do it........it had taken me quite a while because there was too much to dispute. But, I won't do it again because your timeline is way to screwed up to unravel in a short time. At least to convince you anyway.

 

[Terral]

Sorry To Hear About Your Loss

Hi George, (JM's Diagram used as example):

Thank you for writing.

George >> Terral.....I just responded to your other post (indepth). It took me 2 hours....and when I hit submit....I lost it....I had typed a great deal showing where you were in err, and don't have the heart to go do it again......can't believe that all that typing and now it's gone.....

Most of us have been there and done that and I am sorry that we cannot see your reply. My way to beat the internet black whole is to use the word process and paste the reply. Then when the whole thing goes up in smoke we still have the original on the hard drive.

George >> To sum up what I did type......I can't do it........it had taken me quite a while because there was too much to dispute. But, I won't do it again because your timeline is way to screwed up to unravel in a short time. At least to convince you anyway.

Heh . . . Go to this thread ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20421 ) and note how I downloaded JM’s chart and made corrections. A picture is worth a thousand words . . . Here is the revised version.

Just right click on my diagram and download the thing to your desktop. Then open your Microsoft Paint Program and make your corrections. My timeline is very accurate, laid out exactly like Scripture, and you would be trying to convince the third party judges. : 0 ).

GL in the Debate and thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Georges]

thanks for the advice...I'll use it.

 

[Georges]

Hi George:

Thank you for writing. We appear to agree on most everything to this point of your post.
Quote:
Terral Original >> The reason that my interpretation appears off is because you are following Larkin’s same mistakes.

George’s Reply >> Here our paths split.....Larkins term age isn't written in stone but is merely guideline description of a shift in prophetic themes.


We disagree. Larkin fails to use ‘the definition’ of Age (aion #165) and he misapplies that term to where he is describing ‘dispensations’ (oikonomia #3622). Bible Commentary is either accurate and uses the ‘Greek’ definitions OR inaccurate by replacing those true definitions with the false notions of the commentator. You have to admit that this is a grave error for one called a “Dispensationalist.â€Â

Terral…..Both terms are interchangeable depending on the proper accepted context and definition. Of course (oikonomia) in the Greek doesn’t mean dispensation as a period of time. You would have to find the Greek equivalent to the more modern term for dispensation….wait a minute….I’ve found it….it’s “aionâ€Â. Terral…please don’t lecture me on NT Greek. Just because there is an English word that might better define the concept, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Larkin could have easily have said “age†instead of “dispensationâ€Â, would that have made you more happy?

Quote:
Terral Original >> He misuses the term 'age' also in describing a “Kingdom Age, Age of Conscience, Age of Law, Etc.†(Page 3.5) and "Millennial Age" (Dispensational Truth Page 41, 1918 Edition).

George >> How so?


How so? Those are ‘dispensations’ (oikonomia #3622) and not ‘ages’ (aion #165) at all.

Again, these are not (oikonomia #3622) as put forth in definition by Strong’s, and Age merely designates a change in theme. The beginning and ending of a specific defining period of time.

Quote:
Terral Original >> He also separates the coming of the “Antichrist†and “Satan†by 1000 Years (Page 16),

George >> Not so....Larkin has Satan being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period.... Disp Truth (Chart: Satan, god of this age) as a matter of fact, most of the charts show the "dragon" being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period. Explanation D.T. page 114


You quoted my statement about Page 16 and moved on to talk about something else.

No…I didn’t, Look at your quote….you said the AC and Satan were separated by1000 years. I said not so, because in many of his other charts rightly he shows Satan being Kicked out of Heaven, headed for earth. At the same time as the AC breaks the peace covenant. I was showing you in another chart how Satan and the AC are not separated by 1000 years.

You are WRONG, George. Please go back to Page 16 and look at what you claim is “Not so.†Larkin shows the “Sixth Day†the “6th Thousand Years†to then show the “Antichrist AD2000†Then he moves into the “Seventh Day The 7th Thousand Years†and has his little circle there saying “End of Satan AD 3000.â€Â

That is correct…..End of the AC Rev 19. End of Satan, Rev 20.
How many years do you count between AD 2000 AND AD 3000???

1000……kinda funny how that worked out.

Larkin INCORRECTLY has the Antichrist appearing BEFORE “The Millennium†and Satan appearing AFTER the same “Millennium.â€Â

That is not correct…..Larkin correctly has the AC appearing before the Messianic Kingdom. He also has Satan appearing before the Millennial kingdom. He also correctly has the end of Satan as post Millennium. Not one of his Charts show’s Satan as appearing after the Millennium.

If you look above on the same page (16 of Dispensational Truth) you see a big gap and Larkin saying “The Length of Time between the Rapture and ‘Revelation†is UNKNOWN.â€Â

That is correct….to him it may have been unknown, and it is unknown to a certain degree. If he is a pre trib guy, the rapture can come at any time before the tribulation period. Besides, there is no big gap….Pre trib people understand that the rapture will happen close to the beginning of the Trib, as the theory goes, gives everyone a chance to be rescued.

Heh. That length of time is unknown TO LARKIN, and he has “The Tribulation†appearing in AD 2000.

Larkin penned his charts in ca 1920, using the information available to him he did very well in getting it close to 2000 AD. It is the grace of God that keeps the Trib from happening at this present time. Of course Larkin bases 2000 AD on the Jewish eschatological premise that man’s lease on earth will last 7000 years. This is based on the 7 days of the creation week. 6000 years of man’s run on earth, the last 1000 years the Millennial Sabbath were Messiah will reign.

We are living in 2006 partner and Larkin’s charts are OFF.

Come on Terral, Larkin’s 2000 AD is a ballpark guestimate. There is no way to know for certain when the 6000 years will officially end. Of course this in part is due to historical (year) estimates and of course God’s time, that is when he has had enough. Since God is a God of order, I expect him to keep to the creation week timeline template.

Christ returns only AFTER the 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8)

Your misinterpretation here Terral. 2 Pet 3:8 concerns the end of the Millennium and the creation of the new heaven and earth. This includes the New Jerusalem. This has nothing to do with the return of Christ. It has everything to do concerning God himself living with us, an event that happens 1000 years after Christ returns.

Day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10) is complete and AFTER Elijah returns

That is true…..albeit 1000 years after Elijah appears.

FIRST (Matthew 17:10) to restore ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:11).

Elijah as one of the 2 witnesses of Revelation begins to prepare the people for the return of the Messiah. Jewish eschatology states that Elijah will introduce the Messiah to the people at the “beginning†of the Messianic Kingdom. Elijah prepares the people, and restores Judaism as the religion of the Messianic Kingdom. At that point Messiah will reign.

Larkin’s diagrams have this “Length of time UNKOWN†lingo to cover for his lack of vision.

Not so….he recognizes that there are 7000 years to this age and that we are somewhere near the beginning of the 7000 years….Larkin was smart enough not to date set….

When you place the 1000 Years that Satan is in the pit (Rev. 20:2-7) BEFORE that Tribulation and make his release (Revelation 12:12) PART of that ‘short time’ (Tribulation), then Larkin and Terral are in complete agreement. He just needs to make the “Second Coming†in “3000 AD†instead of “2000 AD.â€Â

Well it’s obvious to most that that’s not how it will happen….Revelation 12:12 is an event that occurs midway through the Tribulation period. Rev 12:12 is not the release of Satan from the pit, it is his expulsion from heaven. Contrary to popular belief…..Satan has access to God’s throne as we speak…It is only at the point of Rev 12:12 that he is actually kicked out of heaven.
1. Satan now has access to heaven
2. Satan midway through the Trib period is kicked out of heaven Rev 12:6
3. Satan is Chained in the pit Rev 20
4. Satan loosed for a short time Rev 20
5. End of Satan Rev 20
Satan is not destroyed by the 2nd coming of Christ, the beast is.

Quote:
Terral Original >> which is refuted by the fact that the dragon and beast work together in Revelation 13 and go into the lake of fire following the same battle described in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

George >> As I've stated above, both charts and explanation show Satan being expelled from heaven midway through the trib period. However, Satan is bound for 1000 years, the AC is thrown into the lake of fire before the 1000 years.


No sir. Go back to Page 16 of ‘Dispensational Truth’ and look at the top “Larger Scale†diagram where he places the “Second Coming†and the arrow pointing down to “AD 2000†clear as day.

I see it….again ballpark figure as the Messiah doesn’t appear until 7 years after the 6000th begins…6007 AC. This of course is based on the creation week model.

Note that this “Second Coming†FOLLOWS “The Tribulation.â€Â

It does as a matter of fact….
Then look down at the timeline and find where he places the 2000 AD on the timeline. He places the “AD 2000†on the “Antichrist.â€Â
And again it is a ballpark figure…I will be surprised (and disappointed) if you had taken it to be Jan 1, 2000.

Then he passes through the entire 7th Thousand Years and deals with Satan in “AD 3000.â€Â

That is correct in this timeline…….the End of Satan occurs 1000 years after the dunking of the AC.

Therefore, unless you want to try and prove that Larkin has invented another “Tribulation,†which he DOES NOT NAME in this diagram, then your assertion that he expels Satan mid way through the Tribulation is false.

Not so….expulsion and destruction are 2 different things……

The notion that the Antichrist (Beast) appears apart from Satan (Dragon) is also false. What does John see in Revelation 13?

I haven’t asserted that…..I think it is quite clear that Satan (who is kicked out of heaven midway through the tribulation period, before the 2nd coming of Christ) is in cahoot’s with the False Messiah.

Quote:
“And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.†Revelation 13:1-2.



The dragon (Satan) precedes his beast and is preparing the way like John the Baptist did for Christ in the Four Gospels.

Not quite so……Satan has always been present on earth. He facilitates the appearance of the Beast, but it is in fact the False Prophet (False Elijah) that prepares the people for the False Messiah.

The dragon (Satan) is giving his power and throne and authority to his Son (Beast), just like the Father gave life and authority to judge to His Son (John 5:26-27). The ‘thousand years’ that Satan was in the pit just ended with his release in Revelation 12:12.

Again you are mistakened with the Rev 12:12 reference. Satan is kicked out of heaven, not released from the pit….unless you consider the pit as heaven.

Quote:
"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time (Revelation 20:7)." And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) who gave birth to the male child (Christ).†Revelation 12:12-13.



The dragon is not cast down in the middle of any Tribulation period, because he is the instigator paving the way for the Beast from the beginning.

The book doesn’t say that…..Rev 12:14 clearly states the time of 3 ½ years…..uh…that’s half of 7. Again, Satan doesn’t have to be cast out of heaven to pave the way for the false messiah. Satan is already alive and well on planet earth. He’s already paving the way baby…..

Elijah has already returned and restored the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7)

No he has not….Elijah as one of the 2 witnesses in Rev is prophesying during the 2nd half of the Trib period. At the point of his resurrection and rapture, he returns to lead the Messiah to the promised land.

during the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) that STARTED the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†The restored Kingdom AND Temple is what the Beast comes to use in setting up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13).

No, the Millennial temple is built by the Messiah upon his return. In fact he officiates temple worship, and teaches Torah from Messianic Jerusalem. The temple that the AC defiles is the temple the Jews are itching to build now….It is the tribulation period temple.

This same Beast must come and make the covenant of peace to start the ‘one week’ (Daniel 9:27), but then he stops the offerings in the middle. That tells you that the Kingdom and Temple are already restored at his coming (Matthew 24:15).

That’s a twist……The Beast comes and desecrates the Temple the Jews will build when the time is right. This is a tribulation period event…..once Messiah comes….he will either destroy and rebuild the defiled Temple, or he will cleanse it like the Maccabee’s had done during the previous desecration.

There is only one 1000 Years Day of the Lord and Satan with his Beast appear together at the ‘end’ of that 1000 Years and work within the same “short time,†just prior to Christ’s one “coming†at the “end of the age†(Matthew 24:3+).

Again that isn’t quite right…the disciples where asking him when the end of the present age would occur, that is, the age prior to the Messianic Kingdom…they are fully aware of the 7000 year timeline as taught in Judaism. You have the wrong perception of what age they are talking about. You are trying to include the Messianic Kingdom in you timeline for the age reference of (Mat 24:3…and that ain’t right.

Quote:
Terral Original >. He never understood that both the antichrist and Satan work at the end of this current evil age just prior to Christ’s single coming (Matthew 24:30-31)

George >> He clearly states this and shows it in many of his charts......In many charts Satan (dragon) and the beast are shown in the tribulation period. Satan bound at the 2nd coming, beast takes a swim in the heated pool.


Satan is what??? Satan is bound for the same thousand years that Elijah is restoring all things.

Not true….Satan is bound for 1000 years….Elijah only prepares the way for the Messiah. Elijah restores Judaism back into the Millennial Kingdom. It doesn’t take 1000 years for Elijah to restore all things…Elijah as one of the 2 witnesses in Revelation spends 3 ½ years doing that.

The battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) is the same battle fought to end both Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

That is not true….The armies of the False Messiah muster at Armegeddon. The final battle fought at Jerusalem (Rev 19). The event of Rev 20 are 1000 years later and God himself destroys Satan.

There is just one Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) following that battle and the Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) and the dragon (Revelation 20:10) are in the lake of fire BEFORE that judgment takes place.

You are not right here either. There are plainly at least 2 judgments….The first is for the righteous coming out of the tribulation period. They will live in the Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years. After the 1000 years the wicked dead are judged. At the beginning of the 1000 years the Beast and False Prophet are cast into the lake, after the 1000 years Satan joins them….It can’t be any more clear than that….
God deals with both the Beast AND the Dragon AFTER the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.â€Â

Again, as proven….not so.
Quote:
Terral Original >> and that they are both in the lake of fire before the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

George >> Of course they are in the lake of fire by 20:11-15, but however comma, there is a 1000 year period in between the event of Rev 20:1 and 20:11. They clearly are not thrown into the lake of fire at the same time.


No sir. Revelation 20 is an overview of the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†that started back with John standing in the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) in Revelation 1:10.

Not so my friend…..different “agesâ€Â.

Satan was bound by the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the sound of the trumpet “behind†John back in Revelation 1.

Not so my friend….Satan bound after the tribulation period at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom period. That is another topic of discussion.

The 1000 Years day of the Lod and the events of the “short time†that follow have been transpiring from Revelation 1 to Revelation 12:12 and Satan’s release.

Not so my friend…….the short time is only the amount of time Satan has from his release until his destruction. This in no way ties into Rev 12:12. The short time there refers to the 3 ½ years he has before he is bound and pitted.

You have created your own second 1000 Years from John’s overview chapter (Revelation 20) given from Satan’s perspective of this same 1000 Years; and thus you are duplicating Larkin’s mistake . . .

Not so my friend…..it’s quite clear you have your timeline of events jumbled…..hopefully I helped straightening it out a bit.
Quote:
Terral Original >> The reason many cannot distinguish between an ‘age’ and a ‘dispensation’ is because Larkin used those terms interchangeable without regard for the differences. GL in the discussion and thank you for writing,

George >> By definition Age and Dispensation are the same....Just looked them up in Websters to make sure.....


My God, George. Webster does not define the ancient Greek terms used in the New Testament. Try using Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words or Strongs Lexicon. Webster indeed . . . That is funny . . . We will try to pretend you did not make that statement . . .

Well, I think I addressed that in the beginning……

Thank you for writing,

My pleasure…..same to you….

In Christ Jesus,

 

[Terral]

The New Testament Is Written In Ancient Greek!

Hi George:

Thank you for writing. (snip) If you wish to use Webster to define your terms, then that is your prerogative. (snip) I will concede that you can follow Larkin’s blunder in interpreting end time events if you wish. We can pick it up here:

Terral Original >> The dragon (Satan) precedes his beast and is preparing the way like John the Baptist did for Christ in the Four Gospels.

George >> Not quite so……Satan has always been present on earth. He facilitates the appearance of the Beast, but it is in fact the False Prophet (False Elijah) that prepares the people for the False Messiah.

We disagree. Revelation 13:1 shows the dragon standing on the sand of the seashore and NOT the false prophet. Then the Beast is coming up out of the sea in the same verse after the dragon. The dragon gives power and authority to the Beast like John the Baptist passed the Holy Spirit to Christ in the Jordan River (Matthew 3:15-16). The great deception between these two key figures (dragon and beast) is what amazes the whole earth in Revelation 13:3. There is clearly NO FALSE PROPHET yet in the picture. The ministry of John the Baptist preceded that of Christ and he was sent FROM GOD (John 1:6). The antithesis counterpart of Elijah (spirit) coming to prepare the way for the Son of God (blood) is Satan (spirit) preparing the way for his Beast (blood). Hebrews 1:1-8 shows the Father saying to the Son “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever . . .†Hebrews 1:8. The ‘son of destruction’ is the one to take “his seat in the Temple of God, displaying himself as being God.†2 Thessalonians 2:4. Satan will pass all things from himself to his own ‘son of destruction’ for the end time scenarios to mimic God sending His Only Begotten Son.

The reason Satan is in the picture (dragon) instead of a witness like John the Baptist (Elijah = Matthew 11:14), is because Satan has been ‘cut off’ from God’s Infinite Realm and he is cast down through heaven (Revelation 12) to find himself on the earth among men (Revelation 13). The short time of Revelation 12:12 is typical of the ‘short time’ of Revelation 20:7, which culminates in the ‘end of the age’ events of Revelation 13 (Matthew 24:15+). Satan (dragon) and the son of destruction (Beast) are working in unison at the end of the same age in Revelation 13, which finds the beast standing in the Holy Place of Matthew 24:15.

If the false prophet is preparing the way for the beast (not), then we would see the false prophet mentioned before the dragon (Satan) in Revelation 13 with power and authority being transferred from the false prophet to the son of destruction. This false prophet is the ‘water’ witness that follows behind like the Holy Spirit (water) at Pentecost. Recognizing the correct order of the ‘spirit and water and blood’ (1 John 5:7-8) witnesses is seeing Satan (spirit), Beast (blood) and False Prophet (water) just like Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water).

Terral Original >> The dragon (Satan) is giving his power and throne and authority to his Son (Beast), just like the Father gave life and authority to judge to His Son (John 5:26-27). The ‘thousand years’ that Satan was in the pit just ended with his release in Revelation 12:12.

George >> Again you are mistakened with the Rev 12:12 reference. Satan is kicked out of heaven, not released from the pit….unless you consider the pit as heaven.

Of course this side of the discussion knows the difference. That does not change the fact that John is giving the same information over and over again from various perspectives in these chapters. Revelation 20 is an ‘overview chapter’ from the perspective of the ‘god of this world’ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4). The chaining of Satan in Revelation 20:2 actually takes place ‘behind’ John in Revelation 1:10 where the "Lord's Day" (Day of the Lord) begins. Revelation 19 is the same story and the same ‘Battle of Armageddon’ (Revelation 16), but told from the perspective of his Beast and False prophet. Revelation 12 is told from the perspective of events that span Genesis 1:2 through Christ’s ascension (Revelation 12:5) to his chaining with all the members of his evil body (Revelation 12:10 = thrown down) to the time of his release for the same “short time†(Revelation 12:12) of Revelation 20:7. Satan going off to make war with the rest of her (Israel’s) children (Revelation 12:17) is the same war of Revelation 20:8-9. Scripture is paralleling the events of Michael’s war and the upcoming Battle of Armageddon, where Satan is cast down to earth in the first and finds himself in the lake of fire in the second (Revelation 20:10).

Terral Original >> The dragon is not cast down in the middle of any Tribulation period, because he is the instigator paving the way for the Beast from the beginning.

George >> The book doesn’t say that…..Rev 12:14 clearly states the time of 3 ½ years…..uh…that’s half of 7. Again, Satan doesn’t have to be cast out of heaven to pave the way for the false messiah. Satan is already alive and well on planet earth. He’s already paving the way baby…..

You are missing the point, George. There is a huge difference between the ‘god of this world’ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) being the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Ephesians 2:2) on planet earth today and him ‘incarnating’ onto the earth as a man at the ‘end of the age,’ as the ‘dragon.’ We can agree that the times (two years), time (one year) and half a time (6 months) connected with Michael’s campaign against the dragon translate to three and a half years of the ‘Great Tribulation’ of Matthew 24:21. However, that places the dragon together at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +) with his beast (Revelation 13), so that his “son of destruction†can stand in the “Holy Place†of Matthew 24:15. Scripture then shows the “serpent (dragon) poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman†(Revelation 12:15), which is typical of the Father (spirit) sending the Holy Spirit (water) as the Helper (John 15:26) in Day of Pentecost fashion. Peter and the Twelve were taking the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) to the whole world and Satan (spirit) is sending his False Prophet (water) in the very same way. Everything that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did through John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve is being carried out in the precise order at the ‘end of the age.’ The difference is that those obeying Satan’s false ‘gospel of the kingdom’ are being baptized into his ‘false kingdom’ to receive the spirit of his ‘False Prophet’ (antithesis of the Holy Spirit).

Terral Original >> Elijah has already returned and restored the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7)

George >> No he has not….Elijah as one of the 2 witnesses in Rev is prophesying during the 2nd half of the Trib period. At the point of his resurrection and rapture, he returns to lead the Messiah to the promised land.

Heh . . . No George. Those two witnesses are typical of Adam (spirit) and Eve (water). Elijah is prophesied to COME ALONE (Malachi 3:1, Malachi 4:5-6, Matthew 11:14 (is to come), Matthew 17:10-11 (Elijah is coming)). You have conveniently inserted Elijah’s name into Revelation 11:3 to prop up another interpretation based upon what is not written. Those two witnesses are the ‘last’ who were also ‘first’ (Genesis 2) and they have all the powers of the original ‘cultivator of the land’ (like Adam). By contrast, Peter prophesies about ‘the prophet’ coming to restore all things in Acts 3:21-26, which is Elijah of Matthew 17:10-11.

Terral Original >> during the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) that STARTED the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†The restored Kingdom AND Temple is what the Beast comes to use in setting up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13).

George >> No, the Millennial temple is built by the Messiah upon his return. In fact he officiates temple worship, and teaches Torah from Messianic Jerusalem. The temple that the AC defiles is the temple the Jews are itching to build now….It is the tribulation period temple.

Wooo horsy . . . You have two temples being restored? Please . . . The Jews are NOT going to rebuild any Temple, until Elijah comes to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11). Christ says that Elijah MUST come first AND restore ALL THINGS. Please forgive, but I will take Christ’s words over yours any day. If you would pay attention, then the Antichrist comes to the restored Temple (Ezekiel 40 +) to stand in the Holy Place (Matthew 24:15) BEFORE Christ’s return (Matthew 24:30-31) to judge the living (Matthew 25:31-33) and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15). There is NO TIME between that SINGLE JUDGMENT and the coming New Creation (Revelation 21:1 +) for another 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†That single 1000 Years "Day of the Lord" is OVER by the time Christ returns in Matthew 24:30. That is why Scripture calls that the 'END of the age.' Matthew 24:3 +. Your words above contain NO SCRIPTURE, because what you are proposing is NOT SCRIPTURAL. Christ says that Elijah must come first and restore all things, and you just toss that out the window and replace His words with your double temple hocus pocus . . .

Terral Original >> This same Beast must come and make the covenant of peace to start the ‘one week’ (Daniel 9:27), but then he stops the offerings in the middle. That tells you that the Kingdom and Temple are already restored at his coming (Matthew 24:15).

George >> That’s a twist……The Beast comes and desecrates the Temple the Jews will build when the time is right. This is a tribulation period event…..once Messiah comes….he will either destroy and rebuild the defiled Temple, or he will cleanse it like the Maccabee’s had done during the previous desecration.

Please George. The words you are quoting from me have Scriptural support AND the statements I am writing here have Scriptural support saying the same exact thing. Your OPINIONS here include ZERO Scriptural references and do not mean anything. You say the Beast is coming to desecrate the Temple. Baaaaa! Daniel (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11) and Christ (Matthew 24:15) and Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) say that the ‘son of destruction’ is coming to SET UP his ‘abomination of desolation.’ He is NOT going to tear down any Temple, because that would NOT serve his purpose of deceiving the entire world into believing that HE IS GOD HIMSELF (2 Thessalonians 2:4). He is going to SET UP the ‘abomination of desolation’ and deceive the whole wide world into believing beyond ALL DOUBT that he is most certainly God Himself. If he comes and destroys the same Temple of God, then WHO WOULD BELIEVE HE IS GOD???? Nobody. Your interpretation is not only unscriptural, it makes ZERO SENSE. Satan and his cronies come to take over the same kingdom and the same Temple that Elijah RESTORED, when he returned to restore ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:10-11) to START the 1000 Years "Day of the Lord." Elijah has ALREADY COME and restored all things by the time the antichrist appears in the Holy Place in Matthew 24:15.

The single Battle of Armageddon of Revelation 16 AND Revelation 19:17-19 AND Revelation 20:8-9 takes place at the end of the ‘great tribulation’ of Matthew 24:21, as Christ returns to send them all to the lake of fire in Matthew 24:30-31 (Matthew 25:31-33). You act like 1 billion Arabs are just going to let 5 million Jews take over and rebuild their Temple apart from the return of Elijah, when that is quite IMPOSSIBLE. Our mystery church is ‘caught up’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) and Satan is chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) to START the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord,†which is the exact moment that God sends the Holy Spirit back to the earth for the awaiting Elijah. The combined power and spirit contained within every Christian in the world today (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19) will be upon this single man and he will most certainly take the entire Promised Land (Genesis 15:18) from Esau without the firing of a single shot. Everyone who resists Elijah in that day will be “utterly destroyed from among the people.†Acts 3:23.

Terral Original >> There is only one 1000 Years Day of the Lord and Satan with his Beast appear together at the ‘end’ of that 1000 Years and work within the same “short time,†just prior to Christ’s one “coming†at the “end of the age†(Matthew 24:3+).

George >> Again that isn’t quite right…the disciples where asking him when the end of the present age would occur, that is, the age prior to the Messianic Kingdom…

This is where you guys toss the term ‘age’ (aion #165) around like flapjacks in the morning around the breakfast table in complete IGNORANCE. While Larkin’s work is very good in areas, he is responsible for blinding more people from seeing ‘the truth’ than you realize. There is no ‘age’ change from this ‘evil age’ (Galatians 1:4), until the New Creation of Revelation 21:1 +. Satan and his cronies are in power within the darkness of Genesis 1:2 and still in power today (Ephesians 6:12) and until they are all in the lake of fire at the FINAL JUDGMENT of Revelation 20:10-15. There is NO age shift between Genesis 1:2 AND Revelation 20:15 and you can carry that to the bank. The ‘times and epochs’ established by the authority of THE FATHER (Acts 1:6-7) MUST be fulfilled in THIS EVIL AGE. Scripture says that heaven must hold Christ by the hand (Acts 3:21) until the times of restoration of ALL THINGS spoken by the OT prophets. The ‘prophet’ (Acts 3:22-26) to come is the same prophet of Matthew 17:10-11, which you choose to ignore. He returns and rebuilds the 'tabernacle of David' on Acts 15:16-18) so that the Gentiles can seek the Lord during this same 1000 Years 'Day of the Lord.'

That is the heart of our differences on this topic and quite frankly the remainder of our differences is based upon that single point. I can see no reason to continue hashing out things with a brother who defines terms contrary to the true Greek definitions and invents 'ages' to prop up things not written in God's Living Word. Thank you for the opportunity to share my views,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

lol another know it all!

 

[Terral]

Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi JM and George (mentioned):

Thank you for writing.

JM >> lol another know it all!

Please feel free to “quote >>†anything presented above from any of my posts and offer your rebuttal testimony using Scripture. Adding “LOL’s†to the discussion is not edifying anyone. You guys can help to refine my interpretations by pointing out those errors to everyone AND by drawing from your own knowledge of this topic. Are you defining “aion†(#165) and “oikonomia (#3622) using Webster’s Dictionary like George? Are you also creating ‘ages’ apart from any authority of Scripture to prop up a ‘two Temple’ restoration? Do you also see the antichrist coming to tear down the same Temple he must use to deceive everyone into believing he is God (2 Thessalonians 4:3-4)? Does Daniel say he is coming to ‘tear down’ the Temple OR to ‘set up’ his ‘abomination of desolation?’ Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13?? Does Paul show the 'son of destruction' (2 Thessalonians 4:3-4) coming to tear down the Temple of God OR to use it in his deception? My case is standing in the post above, if you ever get off your ‘LOL’ rocking horsy and decide to enter the debate. My interpretation reconciles every word of Scripture and I challenge JM and everyone here to find any errors. If you can find one, then this side will bless you.

God's Living Word is just like a 'two-edged' sword (Hebrews 4:12) and it cuts both ways for those sending "LOL's," when my interpretation turns out to be 100 Percent Truth. Maybe you would be wise to prove something errant first . . .

Thank you for your five words that say more about you than anyone here,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

“You probably think this post is about you, you’re so vain…†(kidding, it's a joke)

Terral, why did you think my post was for you?

Anyways, the chart isn’t mine and I only posted it to help further your study. I don’t have the time to correct the assumptions you made concerning my recent posts, nor do I can to. Here’s a link to where the chart was taken from and others can be found there as well. http://trianglebiblechurch.org/

Peace,

Jason

 

[Terral]

Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi JM, George and Trinity (mentioned):

Thank you for writing.

JM >> “You probably think this post is about you, you’re so vain…†(kidding, it's a joke) Terral, why did you think my post was for you?

Your reply (Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:28 pm) is posted directly under mine (Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:56 pm) on this thread. George and I are the only two members posting on this page and you were obviously not directing your humor at him, so please stop thinking that you are kidding anyone. Paul writes,

“These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.†Titus 2:15.

If you have nothing but smart remarks to add to our deliberations on this topic, then the wise thing is to remain silent.

“Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.†Proverbs 17:28.

JM >> Anyways, the chart isn’t mine and I only posted it to help further your study.

Oh. You are talking about my reply (Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:37 pm) to your errant chart post (Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:52 pm) containing no commentary. Were you able to quote anything from my seven points against that chart? No? The left hand side was not bad, but the "Dispensation of God’s grace" section and beyond contained many errors. George wrote concerning my charts (Jan 19, 2006 1:20 am), saying,

George >> I'm in agreement with Irish on this one. Chart Wrong....Commentary off.....

The difference is that this side of the Debate has provided commentary AND downloaded your chart AND provided points against your positions, even though you provided NONE. Some might say that you guys are behind in this Debate and that your “LOL’s†make your side appear rather foolish indeed.

JM >> I don’t have the time to correct the assumptions you made concerning my recent posts, nor do I can to.

Of course. You only have time to paste the charts of others that you cannot write your own commentary about OR defend against my seven points. The fact that my charts are withstanding the test of Debate is no surprise at all to me, because they have been tested for some time. Has anyone here provided one argument supported by Scripture leading to the change of one thing in either of my charts? No. Of course you guys have no time for that . . . Heh . . .

JM >> Here’s a link to where the chart was taken from and others can be found there as well. http://trianglebiblechurch.org/

Do you expect me to download and correct those also? Please . . . If you cannot write commentary on someone else’s work, then you have no business pasting that to any of these threads. The work of others should be used to ‘support’ your own positions and your own interpretations and not serve your excuse of having no time to adequately present explanations and defend them. I would like to ‘quote you >>’ and give additional testimony about my own diagrams, but JM, George and Irish have yet to make a case. In the event that any one of you steps up to the plate to take a swing, then I will most certainly make the time to defend the diagrams drawn with my own hands.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Georges]

Re: Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi JM, George and Trinity (mentioned):

Thank you for writing.

JM >> “You probably think this post is about you, you’re so vain…†(kidding, it's a joke) Terral, why did you think my post was for you?

Your reply (Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:28 pm) is posted directly under mine (Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:56 pm) on this thread. George and I are the only two members posting on this page and you were obviously not directing your humor at him, so please stop thinking that you are kidding anyone. Paul writes,

[quote:75202]“These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.†Titus 2:15.

If you have nothing but smart remarks to add to our deliberations on this topic, then the wise thing is to remain silent.

“Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.†Proverbs 17:28.

JM >> Anyways, the chart isn’t mine and I only posted it to help further your study.

Oh. You are talking about my reply (Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:37 pm) to your errant chart post (Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:52 pm) containing no commentary. Were you able to quote anything from my seven points against that chart? No? The left hand side was not bad, but the "Dispensation of God’s grace" section and beyond contained many errors. George wrote concerning my charts (Jan 19, 2006 1:20 am), saying,

George >> I'm in agreement with Irish on this one. Chart Wrong....Commentary off.....

The difference is that this side of the Debate has provided commentary AND downloaded your chart AND provided points against your positions, even though you provided NONE. Some might say that you guys are behind in this Debate and that your “LOL’s†make your side appear rather foolish indeed.

JM >> I don’t have the time to correct the assumptions you made concerning my recent posts, nor do I can to.

Of course. You only have time to paste the charts of others that you cannot write your own commentary about OR defend against my seven points. The fact that my charts are withstanding the test of Debate is no surprise at all to me, because they have been tested for some time. Has anyone here provided one argument supported by Scripture leading to the change of one thing in either of my charts? No. Of course you guys have no time for that . . . Heh . . .

JM >> Here’s a link to where the chart was taken from and others can be found there as well. http://trianglebiblechurch.org/

Do you expect me to download and correct those also? Please . . . If you cannot write commentary on someone else’s work, then you have no business pasting that to any of these threads. The work of others should be used to ‘support’ your own positions and your own interpretations and not serve your excuse of having no time to adequately present explanations and defend them. I would like to ‘quote you >>’ and give additional testimony about my own diagrams, but JM, George and Irish have yet to make a case. In the event that any one of you steps up to the plate to take a swing, then I will most certainly make the time to defend the diagrams drawn with my own hands.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral[/quote:75202]

Terral....from one know it all to another...GLTY...I can tell by your smugness that you won't be convinced....I won't waste any more of my time trying.... :wink: .

 

[Vic C.]

Not so my friend…..it’s quite clear you have your timeline of events jumbled…..hopefully I helped straightening it out a bit.

Goerge, you did a fine job of sorting out the timeline in Revelation. Not bragging now, but I think once people realize that not all of Revelation is chronological and 'round about Ch.12 to 15 or so, John brings us back to midawy, it's sort of easy to put the timeline together.

I understand dispensation and age to be the same in the sense that both can be in a specific "timeframe". Age differs from dispensation in that it can also exist outside of any definable "timeframe". There are times where both words can be interchangable and times when thay cannot.

Jason can probably better explain this.

 

[JM]

Hey folks, God bless and keep doing the Lord's work with the same good spirit. Don't let any one get you down. :D

 

[Vic C.]

Jason can probably better explain this.

Hey folks, God bless and keep doing the Lord's work with the same good spirit. Don't let any one get you down. :D

That's no explaination! :


How far off was I? :o

 

[Terral]

Shouting "WRONG!" And Proving Your Case Are Very D

Hi George:

Thank you for writing. Heh . . . You are a funny guy.

George >> Terral....from one know it all to another...GLTY...I can tell by your smugness that you won't be convinced....I won't waste any more of my time trying....

Anyone writing Bible Commentary under the pretense of defining his terms from Webster is in no way qualified to refer to himself as a ‘know it all.’ The terms used in your New Testament are all written in Greek and we must think in that ancient language to derive proper ‘context.’ Your job as my debating ‘opponent’ is to present your opposing views using Scripture AND the third party readers judge us both. My duty to God, His Word and ‘the truth’ has nothing whatsoever to do with convincing George of anything. Do you really believe that God hands out His rewards (2 Corinthians 5:10) based upon whether you changed Terral’s mind about his own interpretations? Please . . . Your study to try and refute my case is where God takes the opportunity to show you something. Your attempt to support your own interpretations against my attacks is where the rubber meets the road in our deliberations on this topic. If you were willing to ‘waste’ your own time in properly reconciling all of these things with God’s Word, then perhaps we would have no need for this discussion. The primary reason for engaging in the ‘war of words’ on any topic is understood from your probability of successfully building and presenting a case for the third party judges. We can agree that your time would be wasted and that your probability of success is somewhere between nil and none. This side of the Debate has seen your arguments many times and this so-called ‘smugness’ is an enormous amount of confidence having been victorious in every encounter over a long span of time. This was your excuse earlier for failing to show the errors in my charts and commentary:

George (Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:30 pm) >> To sum up what I did type......I can't do it........it had taken me quite a while because there was too much to dispute. But, I won't do it again because your timeline is way to screwed up to unravel in a short time. At least to convince you anyway.

Now you just want to throw in the towel. Surely you could tell by my original presentations on this thread that my mind was made up from the very beginning. If your decision to engage others in meaningful debate includes picking out people undecided about the interpretations of these topics, then you might be wasting your time on this Board. Those are the readers to this Site shown as ‘guests’ and the third party to our deliberations over the correct interpretations. The fact that George and Terral disagree and are both firmly convinced of their position is the vital component for a ‘Great Debate.’ Since your side is so easily discouraged, then our judges are lead into believing that my side was in the right all along. Why should they believe anything different? It is one thing to shout that someone is wrong, but quite another to quote him and prove your case using God’s Word. Thank you for your help in showing the difference,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Jay T]

Re: Larkin's Work Is Good, But Off Here And There

There is no 7 year Tribulation period in the Bible.

I'll repeat this again....There is no 7 year Trib. in the Bible.

And ...the 'Elijah message' is already going forth throughout the world, at this present time, by the 3 angels message of Revelation 14:6-12, which contains the 'EVERLASTING GOSPEL'.

 

[Terral]

Paul's Mystery Body Versus Peter's Kingdom Bride

Hi Jay T:

Jay T >> I'll repeat this again....There is no 7 year Trib. in the Bible.

Okay Jay T. How many years would you like to exist for the ‘Great Tribulation’ of Matthew 24:21 (Revelation 7:14)?? Daniel divided the time up by half weeks (Daniel 9:27). Jumping up and down and saying something does not exist only proves that you do not see it. Unbelievers jump up and down and say there is most certainly NO GOD and they have no Bible verses to make their case either. Perhaps someone could agree or disagree with your ‘no 7 years Trib.’ Interpretation, if you stated your case in the form of a few paragraphs for something that made sense. That “Elijah’s Gospel†deal also is not flying, because Christ says that the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) is preached to the ‘end.’ We preach Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel today, which is most certainly not any Elijah’s gospel from Revelation. Please help me to understand the interpretation you are really trying to convey in your posts.

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

7 years called 70th week, or Jacob's trouble.

Owwww. You guys have made my head hurt. I tried to get through it all - I really did. Let me comment on a few things from my memory (sketchy at best!)

First, does Elijah have to come first? What did Jesus say right after he said this?

Matt 11
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

If John the Baptist satisfied Jesus as to the old testament prophecies, then why should we continue to look for him in our future? Wasn't Jesus words good enough?

Next, what ever happened to the 70th week, divided into two parts, each about 1260 days, with the abomination taking place very near the midpoint of this week? I thought this was a given.

Continuing with the week, the trumpets take place in the first half, and the vials in the second half. Jesus comes back sometime after this 70th week has closed.

Can we pinpoint the week in Revelation? Yes. The 70th week starts with the 7th seal, the midpoint is the 7th trumpet, and the end comes with the 7th vial. The "Day of the Lord," is concurrent with the 70th week, starting at the 6th or 7th seal. The cosmic signs (sun moon and stars) take place at the sixth seal, which shows that the Day of the Lord will start then. However, Jesus said that there will also be cosmic signs just before His return, so these signs will be repeated just before Jesus is seen on the white horse in Revelation 19.

The period some call the "great tribulation" takes place starting at the abomination of desolation which is again near the midpoint, after the 7th trumpet has sounded. It is also at this time that Satan is cast down, and these two together cause "great tribulation." However, God has declared that he will cut short this great tribulation. How does HE do this? The bowls of wrath are designed to cut short any plans the beast has for destroying the Jews, and in the end, all of mankind. His armies will find it impossible to continue any kind of warfare after a few of the vials are poured out. Therefore, the "great tribulation" i.e. the great stress caused by millions being put to death because they are Jews or because they have the testimony of Jesus, will slow down and come to a stop some time before the 7th vial is poured out, and the 70th week ends.

Who said the book of Revelation is not chronological? It is so much so, that John must at times stop his "real-time" events and go into an "intermission" to bring the readers up to date on everything else that is happening at the same time. Case in point: the 7th seal cannot kick off the 70th week until the 144,000 are sealed. So John breaks from the "real-time" time line, and goes into his first intermission, covering the sealing.

Where do the seals fit into this picture? The first seal was broken as soon as Jesus rose from the dead. Seals 2-5 soon followed. We are now waiting on the 6th seal.

As I see it, usually the last thing God has written on a subject will be the most complete. Therefore, most of our discussion of the 70th week will come from the book of Revelation. Also as I see it, any doctrine or belief that has to "mix up" the chronology of this book will immediately be suspect.

This is as I see it
Coop

 

[Terral]

Elijah Is Coming And Will Restore All Things

Hi Lecoop:

Thank you for writing, but I wish you would have pasted someone’s name atop your thread and quoted something from the thread above to give your words context to something. Otherwise this is just another Opening Post of your very own.

Coop >> Owwww. You guys have made my head hurt. I tried to get through it all - I really did. Let me comment on a few things from my memory (sketchy at best!)

Why not just “quote >>†the member and his words you are seeking to correct?

Coop >> First, does Elijah have to come first?

Yes. Elijah Must Come First. Matthew 17:10-11.

Coop >> What did Jesus say right after he said this? Matt 11 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The correct translation is “Elijah, who is to come . . .â€Â. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... 51.html#14 Go down to the last phrase “ho mello erchamai†and click on ‘tense’ for ‘mello’ (is to = present tense) all the way over to the right. Christ appropriated John’s “spirit and power of Elijah†(Luke 1:17) in the Jordan River (Matthew 3:15-16 = Holy Spirit), which caused John to “decrease†(John 3:30) without restoring anything.

Coop Quotes >> Matt 17 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Coop Commentary >> If John the Baptist satisfied Jesus as to the old testament prophecies, then why should we continue to look for him in our future? Wasn't Jesus words good enough?

Please . . . Jesus told you in Matthew 17:10-11 that Elijah is coming to restore all things. Why are Christ’s words not good enough for you??? Christ is coming again at the “End of the Age†(Matthew 24:3-31), but Israel did not recognize Him as their Messiah either. The Lord is telling you that BOTH were rejected and that BOTH are coming again. The difference is that Elijah is ‘coming first’ to restore ALL THINGS. Matthew 17:10-11. What did John the Baptist restore? Nothing. Then what do you do with Christ’s words in Matthew 17:10-11? You pretend that Christ said 'Elijah is NOT coming' again. Remember that he was beheaded back in Matthew 14:10 and was already dead by this time of Matthew 17. Are you also going to try and say that Christ is not coming again? Because Christ is rejected in Matthew 17:12 right along with Elijah. What are you going to do with verses like this?

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times (plural) of restoration of ALL THINGS about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.†Acts 3:19-21.

Peter says that heaven must hold Christ by the hand until the times of restoration of ALL THINGS spoken by the OT Prophets. Are we going to pretend that this restoration of ALL THINGS is invisible to prop up your “Elijah is not coming†interpretation? If heaven is going to receive Christ until the times of restoration of ALL THINGS, then who is the ‘prophet’ that comes to do these things?

"Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me FROM YOUR BRETHREN; to him you shall give heed to everything he says to you. 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed THAT PROPHET shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' "And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. "It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' "For you first, God raised up his servant and sent him to bless you (Luke 1:76-78) by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:22-26.

This ‘prophet’ is Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11). This ‘prophet’ cannot be Jesus Christ, because heaven must receive Him until the times of restoration of all things. Peter just told you that the Lord God will ‘raise up’ for you a prophet like me ‘from your brethren.’ Jesus Christ is coming on the clouds (Acts 1:9-11), as described in Matthew 24:30-31. Elijah is the one coming FIRST to be born like John the Baptist to Zechariah and Elizabeth to be ‘raised up’ by the Lord God, so that restoration of ALL THINGS can begin. James sees (Acts 15:14) that God is gathering a “Gentile†dominant ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12), but then goes on to say,

“After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the Tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and will restore it, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord (through gospel of the kingdom; Matthew 24:14), and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.†Acts 15:16-18.

The ‘tabernacle of David’ will be rebuilt during the time that Elijah is restoring all things as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26. The Disciples asked Christ when He was restoring the Kingdom to Israel.

“So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.†Acts 1:6-7.

Christ already told the Disciples that the “Father alone†(Matthew 24:36) knows the day and hour and we can see that “God†Himself sent John (John 1:6) to clear the way for Christ to redeem the world. However, when Elijah comes first to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11), then that work of redemption will be a PAST EVENT. Nobody will be standing there to take the Holy Spirit from him this time and Elijah will indeed restore all things. Christ connected that restoration to the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7), and Paul would connect the same ‘times and epochs’ to the “Day of the Lord.â€Â

“Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.†1 Thessalonians 5:1-2.

Elijah COMING to restore all things BEGINS this ‘times and epochs’ period that Paul had no need to write about, because these Thessalonians will be in heaven looking down on all of those things. The Temple of Ezekiel 40 + must be restored with the kingdom of Ezekiel 47 + Ezekiel 48 where this prophet sees ‘David’ as prince and king (Ezekiel 34:21-25). We know this ‘prince’ is NOT Christ, because he is making provisions for the sacrifices for sin for even himself.

"On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.†Ezekiel 45:22.

If this mere ‘prince’ were Jesus Christ, then He would be the “King of Kings†and the “Lord of Lords†with NO NEED for any sin offering for himself. No sir. Elijah must come and restore all things spoken by the Old Testament Prophets FIRST and prepare the ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) ‘bride’ through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14). These sacrifices in the restored Temple MUST start up, so the antichrist can come at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:15) and use this same Temple to set up his “abomination of desolation†(Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13). You can clearly see that Christ comes only AFTER all of the terrible events of Matthew 24:4-29, which includes the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21). That means everything was already restored AND the restored kingdom to Israel was captured by his deception (Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Revelation 13:1-17), just prior to Christ’s own coming at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:30-31). If you are going to deny Christ’s statements in Matthew 17:10-11, then you also must replace the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26 with some other man raised up from his brethren coming to restore all things. Do you have any other candidates? Because Christ clearly told you that prophet is Elijah and John the Baptist restored NOTHING 2000 years ago.

Coop >> Next, what ever happened to the 70th week, divided into two parts, each about 1260 days, with the abomination taking place very near the midpoint of this week? I thought this was a given.

Okay. However, are you addressing Jay T or Terral or Vic or JM??? You appear to be agreeing with those holding to the 7 Year Tribulation Interpretation, which Daniel teaches by dividing that week into two parts (Daniel 9:27). There is never any such thing as a ‘given,’ because Christ saying that Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) is a given also. You view Israel’s ‘rejection’ and failure to recognize Elijah 2000 years ago, as if Jesus is saying "Elijah Is Not Coming AND he is NOT restoring all things" in Matthew 17:10-11.

The fact that Israel rejected Elijah AND Christ AND the Holy Spirit’s offering that the kingdom of heaven was ‘at hand’ changes NOTHING about the fact that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.†Romans 11:29. Paul also tells you that the fullness of this Gentile dominant ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12) will come in and THEN “all Israel will be saved†(Romans 11:25-29). God is gathering the Gentile dominant “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27) FIRST (Acts 15:14) and THEN He is sending Elijah to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11). Otherwise our interpretation is that the Father has cancelled the ‘restoration of the kingdom to Israel’ AND the ‘times and epochs’ plans of Acts 1:6-7 that begin like a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). Therefore, my questions to you are:

1. How is the Temple restored that the antichrist comes and uses to set up his “abomination of desolation†(Matthew 24:15) BEFORE Christ’s return in Matthew 24:30?? That Temple will require a kingdom around it, or Esau would attack and tear the thing down themselves.

2. Where are you going to place this ‘times and epochs’ period where the kingdom is restored to Israel, when Paul places those events being fulfilled at the coming of the “Day of the Lord?†1 Thessalonians 5:1-2. Scripture says that the OT Prophets MUST be fulfilled BEFORE heaven can release Christ’s hand (Acts 3:21), which means all of the things of the OT prophets MUST be restored and fulfilled during this ‘evil age’ (Galatians 1:4) leading up to Christ’s return in Matthew 24:30-31.

Coop >> Continuing with the week, the trumpets take place in the first half, and the vials in the second half. Jesus comes back sometime after this 70th week has closed.

That is because Christ returns at the very END OF THE AGE (Matthew 24:3 +). That marks the time that He judges the living (Matthew 25:31-33) AND the dead (Revelation 20:11-15). The Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) and Satan (Revelation 20:10) are already in the fire BEFORE that final judgment begins. We then move straight into the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1 where Christ sets up His kingdom that never ends (Isaiah 9:6-7, Ezekiel 37:24-28). Everyone wants to allow Christ to come and setup a temporary 1000 Year Kingdom, but that means you MUST also invent an excuse for how that kingdom ENDS . . . Elijah’s restored kingdom HAS AN END described in Matthew 24, but Christ’s kingdom has NO END (Isaiah 9:7) and your interpretation has a big hole right in the middle.

Coop >> Can we pinpoint the week in Revelation? (snip)

Pinpointing this week is irrelevant to this discussion. Paul says we are ‘caught up’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the ‘times and epoch’s’ period of the “Day of the Lord†is AT HAND (2 Thessalonians 2:2) or BEGINS. We see all of those things from heaven. You guys do not realize that Elijah restored the same kingdom and Temple that the antichrist is coming to make desolate (Matthew 24:15) BEFORE Christ even returns three and a half years LATER (Matthew 24:30).

Coop >> The period some call the "great tribulation" takes place starting at the abomination of desolation which is again near the midpoint, after the 7th trumpet has sounded.

We agree. However, the kingdom was already restored with the Temple for the antichrist to come and set up his “abomination of desolation†(Matthew 24:15), BEFORE the antichrist even appears and long before Christ’s return. Who restored the kingdom and Temple in the first place? The funny thing is that these things MUST be restored before even the antichrist can return, but somehow you want Christ to restore the Temple and the kingdom to protect it BEFORE the antichrist even appears. Please explain how Christ restores the Temple BEFORE the antichrist comes, BUT Christ Himself arrives on the scene AFTER the abomination of desolation is set up. GL.

Coop >> It is also at this time that Satan is cast down, and these two together cause "great tribulation."

No sir. Satan is released for his ‘short time’ (Revelation 12:12, Revelation 20:7), which CAUSES the ‘great tribulation.’ He was already cast down in the battle with Michael, which finds him today on the earth as the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Ephesians 2:2) and the ‘god of this world’ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4). He is chaned in the pit (Revelation 2:2) during the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†that Elijah is on the earth restoring all things (Matthew 17:10-11). That is what allows Elijah to restore all things in the first place. Elijah’s restored kingdom is standing in Matthew 24:4-14, when the antichrist comes to setup his abomination of desolation in that restored Temple.

Coop >> However, God has declared that he will cut short this great tribulation. How does HE do this? The bowls of wrath are designed to cut short any plans the beast has for destroying the Jews, and in the end, all of mankind. His armies will find it impossible to continue any kind of warfare after a few of the vials are poured out. Therefore, the "great tribulation" i.e. the great stress caused by millions being put to death because they are Jews or because they have the testimony of Jesus, will slow down and come to a stop some time before the 7th vial is poured out, and the 70th week ends. (snip seals lingo never mentioned by Paul)

No sir. The time is cut short by Christ’s return in Matthew 24:30-31.

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

Re: Elijah Is Coming And Will Restore All Things

Hi Lecoop:

Coop >> First, does Elijah have to come first?

Yes. Elijah Must Come First. Matthew 17:10-11.

[quote:64961]Coop >> What did Jesus say right after he said this? Matt 11 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The correct translation is “Elijah, who is to come . . .â€Â. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... 51.html#14 Go down to the last phrase “ho mello erchamai†and click on ‘tense’ for ‘mello’ (is to = present tense) all the way over to the right. Christ appropriated John’s “spirit and power of Elijah†(Luke 1:17) in the Jordan River (Matthew 3:15-16 = Holy Spirit), which caused John to “decrease†(John 3:30) without restoring anything.

Coop Quotes >> Matt 17 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Coop Commentary >> If John the Baptist satisfied Jesus as to the old testament prophecies, then why should we continue to look for him in our future? Wasn't Jesus words good enough?

Please . . . Jesus told you in Matthew 17:10-11 that Elijah is coming to restore all things. Why are Christ’s words not good enough for you???
Terral[/quote:64961]

I want to address everything, but I will only have time this morning for this one point.

Matt 11
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I will agree with you on your translation of verse 11. Jesus is agreeing with the disciples that the old covenant declares that Elijah must come first. When Jesus says "is to come," He is just agreeing with the prophecies. Jesus is not disagreeing with either the disciples or the old testament prophets. However, it is the next words out of Jesus mouth that are more important. What does Jesus say? He said that Elijah has already come! Just to make sure we get this, let's look at it in some other translations:

Darby's English Translation
17:12 But I say unto you that Elias has already come, and they have not known him, but have done unto him whatever they would. Thus also the Son of man is about to suffer from them.

Douay Rheims
17:12 But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them.

Noah Webster Bible
17:12 But I say to you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they pleased: likewise will also the Son of man suffer by them.

Weymouth New Testament
17:12 But I tell you that he has already come, and they did not recognize him, but dealt with him as they chose. And before long the Son of Man will be treated by them in a similar way."

World English Bible
17:12 but I tell you that Elijah has come already, and they didn`t recognize him, but did to him whatever they wanted to. Even so will the Son of Man also suffer by them."

Young's Literal Translation
17:12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.`

What is Jesus telling the disciples? That the old testament prophecies of Elijah coming to restore all things has already been fulfilled! These prophecies were fulfilled in John the Baptist! Verse 13 above says: "then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. "

Therefore, I must believe what Jesus is telling us, that John the baptism fulfilled the prophecies. Therefore, I am not looking for him to come again, sometime in the future.

Coop

 

[Terral]

Elijah Is Coming And Will Restore All Things

Hi Coop:

Thank you very much for the quick reply.

Coop >> I want to address everything, but I will only have time this morning for this one point. Please allow me to include bold highlights to your quote.

Coop’s Quote >> Matt 11 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Coop’s Commentary >> I will agree with you on your translation of verse 11. Jesus is agreeing with the disciples that the old covenant declares that Elijah must come first. When Jesus says "is to come," He is just agreeing with the prophecies.

We disagree. To say that Christ is ‘just’ saying something is to miss the entire point of ‘what’ He is saying. Christ just showed Peter, John and James His glorified joining with Elijah and Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8). The question from His Elect is being made in direct context to just seeing Elijah and Moses with Christ. They wanted to know why the scribes say that Elijah must come first? In other words, Christ will also be rejected as the King of the kingdom, just like Israel did not recognize Elijah (Matthew 17:12). Your “Elijah is not coming†interpretation is refuted by Christ right there in Matthew 17:10-11. Are you mimicking Christ’s statements or not? No, you are not. You are ‘pretending’ that the Twelve asked “Why is Elijah not coming,†when they did not ask that at all. Christ just agreed with the scribes that not only is he coming but he is also coming to restore ‘all things.’ The fact that Israel also rejected John the Baptist as Elijah affects NOTHING about the fact that he is indeed coming again. If you wish to try and alter Christ’s precise words in Matthew 17:10-11 to fit into your “Elijah is not coming†interpretation, then that is your prerogative. In that case I am very interested in knowing who you place into the ‘prophet’ position of Acts 3:21-26.

Coop >> Jesus is not disagreeing with either the disciples or the old testament prophets. However, it is the next words out of Jesus mouth that are more important. What does Jesus say? He said that Elijah has already come! Just to make sure we get this, let's look at it in some other translations: (snip; use the Greek and the other translations are meaningless to this discussion).

Please . . . Elijah is already dead! Matthew 14:10. Christ’s statements in Matthew 17:10-11 are in the FUTURE TENSE. His statements about John the Baptist in Matthew 17:12 are in the PAST TENSE. Of course John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:14), but he also restored NOTHING. That is the whole point of saying that he is coming AGAIN and that he will restore ‘all things.’ If Christ were turning around to say that Elijah is NOT coming, then that would appear in Matthew 17:10-11. Do you see that in Christ’s words? No. You are inserting them there in your own mind to prop up your own “Elijah is not coming†interpretation that appears NOWHERE in the Bible.

Coop >> What is Jesus telling the disciples? That the old testament prophecies of Elijah coming to restore all things has already been fulfilled!

No sir. Can you point to anything being restored by John the Baptist? No. His testimony is that Christ would increase and he would decrease (John 3:30). Christ passed the Holy Spirit (Helper = John 16:7) to the Twelve at Pentecost and He left the picture also. Israel never accepted the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) and Jerusalem was leveled 40 years later in 70 AD. Is that what you are calling the restoration of all things? Please . . . Your interpretation makes no sense at all. Do you believe Christ is coming again? Yes? Then you should also believe that Elijah is coming first to restore all things. Matthew 17:10-11. Otherwise there will be no Temple for the antichrist to enter (Matthew 24:15) and Christ cannot follow behind him at the ‘end of the age.’ Matthew 24:3-31.

Coop >> These prophecies were fulfilled in John the Baptist! Verse 13 above says: "then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

These prophesies? Heh . . . Try to imagine what the Son of God means by the restoration of ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:10-11) and multiply that by a thousand. Your view of the restoration of ‘all things’ must be pretty narrow indeed, since John restored nothing. Please provide us with a list of exactly what John restored. Peter says this includes all things spoken by the prophets of old (Acts 3:21). Good Luck.

Coop >> Therefore, I must believe what Jesus is telling us, that John the baptism fulfilled the prophecies. Therefore, I am not looking for him to come again, sometime in the future.

In other words, you are willing to pretend that the Disciples asked Christ “Why is Elijah never coming?†And you are willing to change Christ’s testimony to say, “Indeed, Elijah is not coming and will not restore all things.†Matthew 17:10-11. Again, that is completely up to you. Again, who are you going to plug into the ‘prophet’ position in Acts 3:21-26? You cannot say “Christ,†because He is coming on the clouds (Acts 1:9-11, Matthew 24:30-31) and at the END of the age (Matthew 24:3 +). Somebody must come and fulfill the prophecy of Acts 3:21-26 and Elijah is the ONLY prophet predicted to come (Malachi 4:5-6) and restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11 = Acts 3:21). If you have another candidate, then please include that with Scriptural references in your next reply. Who is coming to rebuild the ‘tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16-18) ‘AFTER THESE THINGS’ (Acts 15:16) of today? GL.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral