Bible Verses Ignored, by Rapture theory

[Vic C.]

Hey Coop. I think you may have some of the events confused or mixed up there a bit, IMO and as I understand scripture and the series of End Times events. Please allow me to explain:

The first half of this 70th. week will be a time of peace, relatively speaking. It may even go unnoticed by the world at large for a period of time.

1 Thess 5:3

This is the time I see most of the Seals, as I see them as future events. We both agree the Great Tribulation is about midway but you have The Day of the Lord at the beginning. This is incorrect as I see it.

When viewing it this way, Jay is 100% correct; there is no seven year Tribulation period. You will never find it in scripture. The Day of the Lord is associated with wrath; God's wrath to be exact. Read Zephaniah or do a OT study on "The Day of the Lord". You cannot put Satan's period of persecution after God's Wrath, nor can you have any portion of the two going on simultaneously. Satan's power wil be rendered all but useless once The Wrath begins.

Revelation 6:17

The Mark, refusal of the Mark and the persections and martyrdom will start and cease before God unleashes His Wrath on the basically leftover unbelieving world.

You mentioned some were saying Revelation is not chronological; it isn't. The chapters and verses leading up to Revelation 12 are, but in Ch. 12, Johns backpeddles and brings us back to about midweek. Many don't see this or get it and as a result, they place the two witnesses in the first half. :-?

Also, if you carefully examine the sequences of events, you will find the vials (bowls) are actuall outside (after) the 70th. week. Most likely thay are in those first extra (30) days Daniel speaks of:

Daniel 12:11

 

[Terral]

The Day Of The Lord Is As A Thousand Years

Hi Vic:

Thank you for writing on this thread. I believe a point of contention between us is made evident right there in your words to Coop. You wrote:

Vic >> When viewing it this way, Jay is 100% correct; there is no seven year Tribulation period. You will never find it in scripture.

How can you say such a thing? Daniel divides the ‘one week’ in half in Daniel 9:27. Daniel tells the number of days from the time that the abomination of desolation is set up (Matthew 24:15) to the end (Daniel 12:11-13). Since that number is almost exactly 3.5 years (1290 days = Daniel 12:11), then the time from Matthew 24:15 to Christ’s return is just about half of that same “one week.†However, since the ‘Great Tribulation’ begins in Matthew 24:21, then there is no “Great†tribulation for any 7 year period. But, Christ is describing tribulation events all the way back to Matthew 24:4-6. While I am not willing to split hairs over a precise number of days or months in this tribulation period, I can see why others interpret this time to be the same ‘one week’ that Daniel describes as connected to the one coming to stand in the holy place (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 9:27). That, however, was not our major difference in interpretation of end time events. You also said,

Vic >> The Day of the Lord is associated with wrath; God's wrath to be exact.

Your statement here is a half truth, which can be more damaging than a total misstatement of fact. Peter teaches that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years in 2 Peter 3:8 in leading up to his descriptions of the ‘day of the Lord’ in 2 Peter 3:10. Satan is indeed in the pit for a complete 1000 years period (Revelation 20:2-7). Peter’s prophecy about the ‘day of the Lord’ is given in Acts 2 and is divided into two parts, saying,

“And it shall be in the LAST DAYS,' God says, 'That I will pour forth My Spirit upon ALL MANKIND; and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my bondslaves , both men and women, I will in those days pour forth my of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy.†Acts 2:17+18.

Peter is quoting from Joel 2:28-29 here on the ‘day of the Lord’ and saying that God’s Spirit MUST be poured out on ALL MANKIND first. Peter is using Joel’s prophecy to prove that these ‘day of the Lord’ prophecies were being fulfilled in his day almost 2000 years ago. Peter was still looking forward to the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) going to the WHOLE WORLD, which we now know Israel never accepted themselves. They pass the Holy Spirit from disciple to disciple through the ‘laying of hands’ (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6), which is exactly how “My Spirit†shall be poured upon “all mankind†BEFORE the second half of the prophecy EVEN BEGINS. Christ is saying the same exact thing in Matthew 24:14 in saying that the “gospel of the kingdom†must go to the ‘whole world’ first, before the antichrist can even come to the Temple. THAT is what makes the preaching of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ and the appearance of the antichrist (Matthew 24:15) precursors to the remainder of Joel’s (and now Peter’s) prophecy to then become fulfilled:

“And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood (Matthew 24:29), and before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.†Acts 2:19-21.

The “great and glorious†part of the “Day of the Lord†is the judgment part you are talking about, but that ONLY takes place after the “Day of the Lord†is ‘at hand’ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) AND all of the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, Acts 1:6-7) restoration is complete. Where do you place the ‘restoration of the kingdom to Israel’ (Acts 1:6-7) and the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) in your very short ‘day of the Lord?’

1. What provision do you make for the Spirit of God to be poured out on ALL MANKIND and for the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (that we do not even preach today) to go to the ‘whole world’ in your very short ‘day of the Lord?’

2. I submit that your stunted “day of the Lord†does not fit with Peter’s descriptions of 2 Peter 3:8, as being ‘as a thousand years.’

3. You have gaps in your very short Day of the Lord that do not provide for Satan to be in the pit for the same ‘thousand years’ (Revelation 20:2-7).

4. Who restored the Temple that the Antichrist is coming to set up his abomination of desolation? Who restored the kingdom around that Temple to keep Esau from tearing it down?

5. You cannot say that Christ comes to restore the Temple, because the antichrist comes first in Matthew 24:15, which most certainly takes place before Christ returns some 3.5 years later. Matthew 24:30-31.

6. When does Elijah come to restore all things in your interpretation? Matthew 17:10-11? If you also believe (like Coop) that Christ’s words in Matthew 17:10-11 = Elijah is never coming, then who is the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26 who most certainly cannot be Christ Himself?

7. When do you see the ‘tabernacle of David’ being restored, when James says “After these things†(Acts 15:16)?

The key for me is that Elijah comes to restore all things at the moment of our Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which is when the 1000 Years ‘Day of the Lord’ COMES (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That is the START of the 1000 Years, and Christ is describing the END of the same 1000 Years Period. Satan is chained back in Revelation 1:10 ‘behind’ John with the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at ‘our’ Rapture and he is released (Revelation 20:7) some years prior to the antichrist coming to the Temple in Matthew 24:15 that ENDS the 1000 Years.

Please explain why this interpretation makes zero sense, when in fact this answers all the seeming contradictions.

Vic >> Read Zephaniah or do a OT study on "The Day of the Lord".

I have read every word on this topic from Scripture and have concluded that a ‘time of duration’ exists for the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7) to be fulfilled, which includes the restoration of ‘all things’ spoken by the OT Prophets (Acts 3:21). Paul connects the same ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) to the start of the day of the Lord, which again means that a ‘time of duration’ must be present that ‘your’ interpretation does not address.

Vic >> You cannot put Satan's period of persecution after God's Wrath, nor can you have any portion of the two going on simultaneously.

What in the heck is “Satan’s persecution?†Satan is released from the pit in Revelation 20:7 and he participates in the final battle in the two verses that follow. Then his sorry behind is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10. Satan’s ‘short time’ the period that he carries out the deception of Revelation 13 along with his Beast as the ‘dragon.’ The Beast participates in the same war (Revelation 19:17-19) just before he is also thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20. God’s wrath is poured out in that “Bale of Armageddon†(Revelation 16:16) in the ‘cup of wine of His fierce wrath’ (Revelation 16:19) or the “wrath of God, the Almighty.†Revelation 19:15. That is all ONE BATTLE and over before the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. The Dragon and His Beast are clearly seen working together in Revelation 13, which leads up to this same Battle.

Vic >> Satan's power will be rendered all but useless once The Wrath begins.

Satan’s power will be overcome the instant he is tossed into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10). He is seen participating in the final Battle in the preceding verse. Your ‘Satan’s persecution’ statement makes very little sense to me, as I cannot connect that term (persecution) to anything in Revelation or Matthew 24.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Vic C.]

Hello...

No contention was intended. Scripture is clear though...

How can you say such a thing? Daniel divides the ‘one week’ in half in Daniel 9:27. Daniel tells the number of days from the time that the abomination of desolation is set up (Matthew 24:15) to the end (Daniel 12:11-13).

Yes, Daniel is suggesting a seven year period, but he and other Bible authors do not teach ALL sever years are Tribulation. Daniel 9:27 makes that clear.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What is that covenant? Is it a covenant pf peace or what? It is peace, so you have to ask yourself, "is there Tribulation or persecution during that type of covenant?". The answer is no... he doesn't break the covenant until the "midst" (or middle) of the "week".

The entire seven years IS NOT all Tribulation.

 

[Vic C.]

2. I submit that your stunted “day of the Lord†does not fit with Peter’s descriptions of 2 Peter 3:8, as being ‘as a thousand years.’

3. You have gaps in your very short Day of the Lord that do not provide for Satan to be in the pit for the same ‘thousand years’ (Revelation 20:2-7).

Ah, there is the problem right there. Peter teaches no such thing; he does not teach The Day of the Lord is 1,000 years long. No wonder you are confused. There are no gaps in my train of thought because I find no proof that the millennium and The Day of the Lord are the same. Satan is bound after the Day of the Lord is completed, at the Start of the 1,000 years.

May I ask you a question? Who is the dragon in Revelation 12:9? That ought to be real easy to answer. After you answer that, what is the dragon doing in Revelation 12:17? Answer and you'll also have your answer to this:

What in the heck is “Satan’s persecution?â€Â

Your ‘Satan’s persecution’ statement makes very little sense to me, as I cannot connect that term (persecution) to anything in Revelation or Matthew 24.

If still you cannot understand me, the problem is not with how I presented my beliefs, but how you see scripture.

For the most part, my participation in this thread is over, but since I did address lecoop, coop is more than welcome to respond to my post. I will still be here to read it.

Peace all,
Vic

 

[lecoop]

Hey Coop. I think you may have some of the events confused or mixed up there a bit, IMO and as I understand scripture and the series of End Times events. Please allow me to explain:

The first half of this 70th. week will be a time of peace, relatively speaking. It may even go unnoticed by the world at large for a period of time.

There cannot be "peace" when 1/3 of the population of the earth is killed at the 6th trumpet. Yes, perhaps peace from an invading army (unless this is the time of Ezekiel 38) but the terrors of the trumpets will be anything but peace.


1 Thess 5:3

This is the time I see most of the Seals, as I see them as future events. We both agree the Great Tribulation is about midway but you have The Day of the Lord at the beginning. This is incorrect as I see it.

It all depends on where you start the 70th week. Did you never see the timing of when Jesus, as the "lamb," gets the scroll into his hands? You will notice, upon close examination, that when John is seeing into the throne room, there is an entity missing! Stephen saw Jesus standing at the Father's right hand, yet in the time-frame that John is seeing the throne room, - - no Jesus - no lamb - He is not there. Why? John is seeing into the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Remember John crying because no man was found worthy? Remember, this is heaven doing the search - no way that it could fail - yet no man was found. Why is this? Why did John cry for an extended period. And why did he suddenly stop weeping? Because suddenly a man was found! What this is showing us is that John was seeing into his past, back about AD 32, before Jesus had risen from the dead. Then John sees the very moment that Jesus rose, moments after He told Mary not to touch him. Then, as soon as He arrives in heaven, He grabs the scroll out of the hand of the Father. Therefore, the timing of the first seals in about AD 33. There is more proof, if you desire it. When the seals are put into thier proper place, then the Day of the Lord is started just when the Old Covenant prophets said it would, right after the cosmic signs that take place at the 6th seal. Then, it is written at the sixth seal that the time for His wrath has come.

When viewing it this way, Jay is 100% correct; there is no seven year Tribulation period. You will never find it in scripture.

But you will find "the 70th week." And a close and careful reading of Revelation will show the trumpets in the first half, and the vials in the second half, just as in Larkin's charts.


The Day of the Lord is associated with wrath; God's wrath to be exact. Read Zephaniah or do a OT study on "The Day of the Lord". You cannot put Satan's period of persecution after God's Wrath, nor can you have any portion of the two going on simultaneously. Satan's power wil be rendered all but useless once The Wrath begins.

I keep hearing this. However, it just doesn't fit with what John has written. In Chapter 13, the beast is revealed to John, just about the time he will be revealed for real - near the midpoint (at the 7th trumpet in chapter 11.) At this same time, Satan is cast out of the heavens. When does John see this happen? Just before the beast is revealed, in chapter 12. What happens as soon as he is cast down?
Rev 12
12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

We see the timing that Satan is cast out by these verses. As soon as he is cast out, he goes after the woman. She flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. This will take place right after the midpoint. Therefore, what John saw here, with Satan being cast down, takes place very near the midpoint of the 70th week. Therefore, we find Satan's wrath starting at very near the midpoint (just after it actually.) Hmm. This is right when the abomination will take place. It is not a coincidence. Satan has entered the beast, and they will work together to destroy the Jews. Now, what happens in Chapter 14, right after the midpoint? The vials are poured out. What do we read about the vials? They are the wrath of God. So we have Satan's wrath being poured out on the Jews and Christians, while at the same time, you have God's wrath being poured out on the kingdom of the beast. God's wrath actually accomplishes two things. While venting his wrath on an unrepenting world, He is at the same time, shortening the days of the wrath of Satan: the great tribulation. Every vial makes it more difficult for the beast to accomplish anything. Finally, his armies are stopped. None of his computers work, for time has changed. None of his soldiers can fight, for they are wreathing in pain. His kingdom is plunged into darkness. Speaking militarily, his armies have been completely stopped. Therefore, we see the wrath of God being poured out at the very same time that Satan's wrath is being carried out through the beast.



Revelation 6:17

The Mark, refusal of the Mark and the persections and martyrdom will start and cease before God unleashes His Wrath on the basically leftover unbelieving world.

Again, not according to John.

You mentioned some were saying Revelation is not chronological; it isn't. The chapters and verses leading up to Revelation 12 are, but in Ch. 12, Johns backpeddles and brings us back to about midweek. Many don't see this or get it and as a result, they place the two witnesses in the first half. :-?

I disagree. John breaks from his "real-time" story, and goes into his "midpoint intermission" to bring the readers up to date on what all must take place near the midpoint. (It is a very busy time.) Chapter 11 is all "intermission" until John drops back into "real-time" for the blowing of the 7th trumpet, marking the exact midpoint. Then he goes right on with his intermission. He is told to measure the temple just before the midpoint. He is introduced to the two witnesses just before the midpoint. (if I would guess, I would say 3 1/2 days before the midpoint.) Why was he introduced to the witnesses here? I believe it is because this is when they will show up for real - perhaps 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. Still in this "midpoint intermission," John sees Satan cast out. Finally, John is introduced to the beast. Why here? Again, I believe God introduces things to John in the same order and at the same time that they will happen when the time comes. Finally, after the beast, Chapter 13, John goes back to real-time for the vials. Therefore, I find no evidence that this part of the book is not chronological. It is in perfect timing, just the way it will happen.
However, you are correct that in Chapter twelve, during the midpoint imtermission, John is given a view of history, when Jesus is born. However, it is a very short view, and then right back into the vision, showing John two evidences of the midpoint: 1260 days, and times, time and a half of time. In fact, we still see a hint of the midpoint in Chapter 13, when the beast is given authority for 42 months. Starting when? At the midpoint.


Also, if you carefully examine the sequences of events, you will find the vials (bowls) are actuall outside (after) the 70th. week. Most likely thay are in those first extra (30) days Daniel speaks of:

Again, I must disagree. What do we read at the 7th vial? "It is finished." The 70th week is finished at this 7th vial. God uses the 7's as timing markers. Look at the 7th seal? What happens? When is it? Silence happens, right after the people say that the time for God's wrath has come. If you study the timing of events in Chapters 11 - 13, you see five "hints" of the midpont" referrences to the 1260 days. The only real-time event in these chapters is the blowing of the 7th trumpet. Again, I see this as proof that God uses the 7's as markers. Anyway, this is as I see it.

Daniel 12:11

...

 

[Georges]

I believe in Jewish eschatology, the "Day of the Lord" includes the time of Judgment and the time of peace. In the article on "Day of the Lord" found in Jewishencyclopedia.com indicates it includes the tribulation period (70th week) and the rest of the last 1000 years.....

The Jewish concept of the Day of the Lord is the last Millennium that includes the birthpains of the Messiah, or in short, the tribulation period and the peaceful Messianic reign of Jesus.

 

[Terral]

This Side Of The Debate Is In NO WAY Confused AT ALL

Hi Vic:

Thank you for writing.

Terral Original >> 2. I submit that your stunted “day of the Lord†does not fit with Peter’s descriptions of 2 Peter 3:8, as being ‘as a thousand years.’

3. You have gaps in your very short Day of the Lord that do not provide for Satan to be in the pit for the same ‘thousand years’ (Revelation 20:2-7).

Vic >> Ah, there is the problem right there. Peter teaches no such thing; he does not teach The Day of the Lord is 1,000 years long. No wonder you are confused.

There is no confusion here at all. You and I disagree on the duration of the ‘Day of the Lord,’ because Peter’s teaching in 2 Peter 3:8 has escaped your notice.

Vic >> There are no gaps in my train of thought because I find no proof that the millennium and The Day of the Lord are the same. Satan is bound after the Day of the Lord is completed, at the Start of the 1,000 years.

Heh . . . That is funny. What does Scripture say?

“When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison . . .†Revelation 20:7.

The ‘thousand years’ begins way back in Revelation 1:10 with John standing just inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord). Satan was chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) in the voice of the trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) heard “behind†John in that verse. The thousand years just passed in Revelation 1-20 and Satan is released “when the thousand years is completed,†just like Scripture says. The ‘day of the Lord’ AND the ‘thousand years’ is the SAME EXACT THING, but this very simple fact has escaped your notice . . . 2 Peter 3:8-10.

Vic >> May I ask you a question? Who is the dragon in Revelation 12:9? That ought to be real easy to answer. After you answer that, what is the dragon doing in Revelation 12:17? Answer and you'll also have your answer to this:

If you cannot present a case for your “Satan is released to START the thousand years†interpretation, then by all means ask questions . . . The dragon of Revelation 12 and 13 is Satan and the Beast is his “son of destruction†(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) coming to the holy place in Matthew 24:15. Satan (dragon) is preparing the way for his Beast throughout Revelation 13 leading up to his appearance in Matthew 24:15 at the very 'end of the age' (Matthew 24:3 +).

Terral Original >> What in the heck is “Satan’s persecution?†. . . . Your ‘Satan’s persecution’ statement makes very little sense to me, as I cannot connect that term (persecution) to anything in Revelation or Matthew 24.

Vic >> If still you cannot understand me, the problem is not with how I presented my beliefs, but how you see scripture.

And you call this a reply? Please . . . This ‘Satan’s Persecution’ lingo is not part of Scripture. The final use of the term as “persecutions†is given by Paul in 2 Timothy 3:11. I just wanted to see if you were perhaps translating a different Greek term into your version of “Satan’s persecutions.†Whether that is God persecuting Satan by the chaining, OR Satan persecuting others after his release is still beyond me . . .

Vic >> For the most part, my participation in this thread is over, but since I did address lecoop, coop is more than welcome to respond to my post. I will still be here to read it.

Please forgive, but the seven points from my post (Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:10 pm) and other points remain standing in this thread. You have not addressed the ‘times and epochs’ points concerning the ‘restoration of the kingdom to Israel’ (Acts 1:6-7) AND Paul’s statement that this ‘times and epochs’ Period BEGINS with the coming “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). First you let the fact pass you by that one day to the Lord (Day of the Lord = 2 Peter 3:10) is ‘as a thousand years’ (2 Peter 3:8), then you let these ‘times and epochs’ points escape your notice also. Then to presume that this side of the discussion is confused?? Heh . . . That is funny. If someone sends seven points against my interpretations, then you can bet the house that nothing will be swept under the rug. I would like to “quote you >>†offering resistance to my interpretations, but you failed to raise any. I am sorry to see you heading for the hills, as there are still things to discuss. Maybe Coop will answer those seven numbered points and provide his explanation for the ‘times and epochs’ being fulfilled during his version of the “Day of the Lord.†Maybe he can name the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26 and realize that this is Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11).

The common error of those holding the Pre, Mid and Post-Tribulation Rapture theories (they are all dead wrong) avoid the topic of Elijah coming first to restore all things like the plague. They fail to make the connections of the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) of the “Day of the Lord†with the ‘restoration of the kingdom to Israel’ from Christ’s statements in Acts 1:6-7. When do you see the kingdom restored to Israel if not during the 1000 Years (times and epochs) Day of the Lord??? Who restores the kingdom and the Temple to be occupied by the antichrist (Matthew 24:15) before Christ comes behind him (Matthew 24:30)? Please forgive, but there appears to be more holes in your theories than in Swiss Cheese and all I am seeking is the Biblical evidence for what makes men believe the same way as you.

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

The Day Of The Lord Is As A Thousand Years

Hi George:

We have points of agreement here George. What your post lacks is Scriptural references to give anyone a clear idea of what you are saying with regard to these ‘end time’ events.

George >> I believe in Jewish eschatology, the "Day of the Lord" includes the time of Judgment and the time of peace.

Obviously the time of peace must come before the ‘great and terrible’ (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20) Judgment of the “Day of the Lord,†because God’s Wrath (Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:15) is poured out at the very end. Paul connects the ‘times and epochs’ directly to the start of the “Day of the Lord†in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2. Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in Acts 1:6-7, which apparently escapes the notice of just about everyone here. That restoration of the kingdom to Israel is part of the restoration of ‘all things’ prophesied by Peter in Acts 3:20-26 (21), which includes the ‘prophet’ (Acts 3:22-23). The only ‘prophet’ prophesied to come and restore all things is “Elijah†by Christ Himself in Matthew 17:10-11. From Coop’s testimony it appears most everyone here believes that Christ said “Elijah is not coming and is not restoring all things†in Matthew 17:10-11, which directly contradicts what He truly did say. They think that since Israel rejected the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ from Elijah and Christ (Matthew 17:12) and the Twelve also, that means Elijah is never coming. Why they believe Christ would contradict Himself in Matthew 17:10-11 is beyond my ability to fathom. They also appear to replace the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-23 with Christ Himself coming to restore all things, even though Scripture forbids that interpretation. That prophet is raised up from among the brethren (Acts 3:22), but Christ returns on the clouds (Acts 1:9-11, Matthew 24:30-31).

George >> In the article on "Day of the Lord" found in Jewishencyclopedia.com indicates it includes the tribulation period (70th week) and the rest of the last 1000 years.....

The best you will receive from that site is some man’s interpretation and he has just as much right to be wrong as anyone here. That article ( http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp? ... The%20Lord ) focuses upon how men have viewed the ‘day of the Lord’ throughout Scripture and history. The key is for us to realize that Paul is describing the ‘start’ of the ‘Day of the Lord’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) with our Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) AND that Christ is describing the END of the same 1000 year period in Matthew 24:3-31 with His coming. Elijah returns at our Rapture to START the Lord’s Day (Day of the Lord), which is why we never see him. The Holy Spirit in our bodies right now is the “spirit and power of Elijah†(Luke 1:17) that he needs to actually be called “Elijah†in the first place. John had to say “No†(John 1:21) to that question, because he had given the Holy Spirit to Christ in the Jordan River (Matthew 3:15-16). Elijah needs God to take us up (1 Thessalonians 4:17) so that the “Helper†(John 16:7) can return and fall upon him to START the 1000 Years ‘Day of the Lord.’ That is when the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) BEGIN and God begins restoring the kingdom to Israel, as Christ told the Twelve (Acts 1:6-7). All of that restoration must be complete AND the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14) that we DO NOT EVEN PREACH TODAY must go to the whole world, BEFORE the antichrist can appear in the RESTORED Temple (Matthew 24:15) very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +) almost 1000 Years LATER. The 1000 Years of the ‘day of the Lord’ MUST be completed in this ‘evil age’ (Galatians 1:4) and BEFORE we head into the “New Heaven and New Earth†of Revelation 21:1 +. This is why the ‘Day of the Lord’ MUST include a ‘duration of time’ that is equal to the 1000 years that Peter (2 Peter 3:8-10) and John (Revelation 20:2-7) describe.

George >> The Jewish concept of the Day of the Lord is the last Millennium that includes the birthpains of the Messiah, or in short, the tribulation period and the peaceful Messianic reign of Jesus.

You have things backwards here, George. You want to place the ‘tribulation period’ at the ‘start’ of the 1000 years, when Scripture clearly shows Satan released AFTER the 1000 years are complete (Revelation 20:7). Satan (dragon) and His Beast are working in unison in Revelation 13 to perpetuate the great deception that the ‘son of destruction’ is truly God Himself (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The battle ending Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 is the same “Battle of Armageddon†of Revelation 16:16, which finds the Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) and Satan (Revelation 20:10) in the lake of fire BEFORE the final judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. There is only ONE “Day of the Lord†and ONE 1000 Years in Revelation. Satan is chained to START the 1000 Years and released to END the same period, which coincides with the antichrist coming to the restored Temple just the once in Matthew 24:15.

The simple truth escaping your notice is that the Kingdom of Israel and this same Temple were both restored by Elijah coming to restore ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:10-11) almost 1000 years earlier. By the time the antichrist comes to the Temple in Matthew 24:15, the ‘times and epochs’ restoration period will already be over. Paul described that beginning with our Rapture, when the “Day of the Lord†was “at hand†(2 Thessalonians 2:2), and by the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +), we will already have been with the Lord for the same 1000 yeaYou and I were “IN†the Lamb of revelation all the way back in Revelation 1:10-18 “IN†Christ standing before John. This prophetic book does not see us “IN†the Lamb in the “center of the throne†(Revelation 7:17), because Paul’s gospel is “according to the revelation of the mystery†(Romans 16:25). That is why ‘our’ trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) chaining Satan with the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17) was heard ‘behind’ John (Revelation 1:10) in the first place.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

2. I submit that your stunted “day of the Lord†does not fit with Peter’s descriptions of 2 Peter 3:8, as being ‘as a thousand years.’

3. You have gaps in your very short Day of the Lord that do not provide for Satan to be in the pit for the same ‘thousand years’ (Revelation 20:2-7).

Ah, there is the problem right there. Peter teaches no such thing; he does not teach The Day of the Lord is 1,000 years long. No wonder you are confused. There are no gaps in my train of thought because I find no proof that the millennium and The Day of the Lord are the same. Satan is bound after the Day of the Lord is completed, at the Start of the 1,000 years.

May I ask you a question? Who is the dragon in Revelation 12:9? That ought to be real easy to answer. After you answer that, what is the dragon doing in Revelation 12:17? Answer and you'll also have your answer to this:

[quote:770a4]What in the heck is “Satan’s persecution?â€Â

Your ‘Satan’s persecution’ statement makes very little sense to me, as I cannot connect that term (persecution) to anything in Revelation or Matthew 24.

If still you cannot understand me, the problem is not with how I presented my beliefs, but how you see scripture.

For the most part, my participation in this thread is over, but since I did address lecoop, coop is more than welcome to respond to my post. I will still be here to read it.

Peace all,
Vic[/quote:770a4]

Actually, Vic, this was a good post. I understand your words, "Satan's persecution." You just used different words. Jesus called it "great tribulation." No matter what the words, it will be the Holocaust times ten, or worse, and it will undoubtedly be world wide. (Of course it will be difficult for the beast to find someone living in the NothWest territories!) People that head for the wilderness may survive. People that try to survive in a city will probably be found and killed.

Let's talk about the "day of the Lord." Didn't Peter mention this?

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Can we compare this verse to the following?

Rev 6
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Will the heavens pass away during the 70th week? Will the earth be burned up during the 70th week? I have pondered these things for a while. I have always heard that these things are for after the 1000 year reign. If this is the case, then the "day of the Lord" must - according to this verse by Peter - include the 1000 year reign. On the other hand, perhaps these things will happen during or at the end of the 70th week. Perhaps Peter was exagerating slightly, and the earth will be burned, but not "burned up." Anyone have any ideas here?

Rev 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Perhaps this is what Peter was talking about.

 

[lecoop]

Terral said

The ‘thousand years’ begins way back in Revelation 1:10 with John standing just inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord). Satan was chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) in the voice of the trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) heard “behind†John in that verse. The thousand years just passed in Revelation 1-20 and Satan is released “when the thousand years is completed,†just like Scripture says. The ‘day of the Lord’ AND the ‘thousand years’ is the SAME EXACT THING, but this very simple fact has escaped your notice . . . 2 Peter 3:8-10.

Terral, aren't you "stretching" here just a little? The Lord's day, is referring to Sunday. It was on a Sunday that John was "in the spirit." When does this "thousand year" reign of Christ start? Perhaps we can answer this by this verse:

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

When does this take place? It seems that it is right after the battle of Armageddon. Therefore, I would conclude that the thousand year reign starts with the this binding of Satan. However, what is a few days one way of another, when we are speaking of a thousand years?

Satan was chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) in the voice of the trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) heard “behind†John in that verse.

Another stretch? Please explain how you can believe this? There is nothing in these verses that even mention Satan being bound. however, we do see him bound by Michael in Rev. 20.

The thousand years just passed in Revelation 1-20

Are you pulling these things right out of thin air? How do you get this? How can the thousand years end before it has even started? It does not start until Rev 20.

Coop

 

[Terral]

The Day Of The Lord Is As A Thousand Years

Hi Coop:

Thank you very much for writing. We disagree over the timing of the start and end of the "Day of the Lord." Hopefully this post helps you understand my view a better Light.

Terral Original >> The ‘thousand years’ begins way back in Revelation 1:10 with John standing just inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord). Satan was chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) in the voice of the trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) heard “behind†John in that verse. The thousand years just passed in Revelation 1-20 and Satan is released “when the thousand years is completed,†just like Scripture says. The ‘day of the Lord’ AND the ‘thousand years’ is the SAME EXACT THING, but this very simple fact has escaped your notice . . . 2 Peter 3:8-10.

Coop >> Terral, aren't you "stretching" here just a little? The Lord's day, is referring to Sunday. It was on a Sunday that John was "in the spirit." When does this "thousand year" reign of Christ start? Perhaps we can answer this by this verse:

Heh . . . It never ceases to amaze me that folks translate the “Lord’s Day†(Revelation 1:10) into one particular “Sunday†to prop up their own interpretations. No sir. Scripture is referring to John standing just inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) and the trumpet behind him is our trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) that Paul says sounds when the “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) is AT HAND (2 Thessalonians 2:2) or “COMES.†That event took place ‘behind’ John, because the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) had already started. Paul is describing events connected to the “Mystery†(Ephesians 3:3), which is why the term ‘musterion’ is found in 1 Corinthians 15:51 (mystery). Christ then appears to John with His brand new ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12 = that’s us) to START the “Day of the Lord,†just like Paul says in both of his letters to the Thessalonians. The seven churches of Revelation 1-3 are part of THAT “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord), but our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is already “IN†the Lamb in the “center of the throne†(Revelation 7:17). John does not see ‘us,’ because we are part of ‘THE MYSTERY’ (Ephesians 3:3).

Coop Quotes >> Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Coop Commentary >> When does this take place? It seems that it is right after the battle of Armageddon.

No sir! What makes you say such a thing? Revelation 20 is an OVERVIEW of the entire 1000 years that began back in Revelation 1:10 with John and Satan being bound by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) sounding off “BEHIND†John. The 1000 years is taking place from Revelation 1 to Revelation 20, so Satan can be released at the END of the same 1000 Years. You guys are starting ANOTHER 1000 Years at the END of Revelation, when in reality there is only ONE. Satan AND His Beast are already free in Revelation 13 and you guys are missing the boat on this one badly . . . There is one and only one Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16 described over and over again in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. You guys are transforming this single battle into separate accounts that are separated by 1000 years, because you FAIL to realize that there is only ‘one’ “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) that beings in Revelation 1 and ends in Revelation 20:15 with the Judgment.

Coop >> Therefore, I would conclude that the thousand year reign starts with the this binding of Satan. However, what is a few days one way of another, when we are speaking of a thousand years?

The 1000 Years STARTS in Revelation 1 and ENDS in Revelation 20. All of the events between and including those two chapters are “Day of the Lord†events. Revelation 1-3 is an overview of the entire 1000 Years in seven church periods. Then John is caught up and begins describing the very ‘end of the age’ events from various perspectives over and over and over again. Satan and His Beast and the False Prophet are all released at the ‘end of the age,’ so the “son of destruction†(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) can come to the Holy Place (Matthew 24:15) and set up his “ abomination of desolation†(Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13). Daniel tells you the exact number of days (Daniel 12:11-13) from that (Matthew 24:15) to the ‘end of the age,’ which marks the time that Christ returns (Matthew 24:30-31 = Zechariah 14:1-6) to judge the living (Matthew 25:31-33) AND the dead (Revelation 20:11-15).

The Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) AND Satan (Revelation 20:10) are already in the lake of fire BEFORE that final judgment even BEGINS (Revelation 20:11-15). There is no second 1000 Years beginning in Revelation 20! NONE. Satan has already been bound in the pit for the 1000 Years “Lord’s Day†(Revelation 1:10) that began back in Revelation 1. Peter’s kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) church was ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) 2000 years ago, but is resurrected with us to START the 1000 years back in Revelation 1:10 behind John. They are the ones on the sea of glass (Revelation 4:6, Revelation 15:2) “before the throne†(Revelation 7:14-15) throughout this account.

John sees those coming out of the “Great Tribulation†back in Revelation 7:14 and those members are added to those ‘before the throne’ (Revelation 7:15), because they are the ‘kingdom of priests’ (Exodus 19:6, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10) addressed by Peter (1 Peter 2:9) and James (James 1:1 = twelve tribes). This should tell you that Revelation 7 is beyond the time of Matthew 24:15, because the “Great Tribulation†BEGINS after Matthew 24:21! The truth (I swear to all of you) that the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24:4-29 BEGIN in Revelation 4-7 and continue to be retold over and over again. All of these ‘end of the age’ events lead up to the one war to end all wars described in Revelation 16, Revelation 19 and Revelation 20, which is the “Battle of Armageddon†(Revelation 16:16). Do you see the ‘great wine press of the wrath of God’ in Revelation 14:19? That is the same battle told from another perspective.

Terral Original>> Satan was chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) in the voice of the trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) heard “behind†John in that verse.

Coop >> Another stretch? Please explain how you can believe this? There is nothing in these verses that even mention Satan being bound. however, we do see him bound by Michael in Rev. 20.

The ‘voice of the archangel’ with the ‘sound of the trumpet’ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the key to unlocking that door. That event took place ‘behind’ John (Revelation 1:10), which you understand by realizing that our Rapture takes place when the “day of the Lord†is ‘at hand’ (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Michael’s War with the Dragon took place long ago, which is how we find him in this Creation with his darkness back in Genesis 1:2. God is showing Christ types given to John about things ‘past’ (in Revelation 12) that are being carried out in our ‘future.’ Satan being cast down into this Universe is typical of him being thrown down onto the earth to incarnate among men at the ‘end of the age.’ The ‘earth’ (Revelation 12:12-13) is this entire seen universe, as the ‘sea’ is the unseen heavens. However, upon his release from the pit in Revelation 20:7, he will walk the earth among men and lead the way for his Beast (Revelation 13).

Terral Original >> The thousand years just passed in Revelation 1-20

Coop >> Are you pulling these things right out of thin air? How do you get this? How can the thousand years end before it has even started? It does not start until Rev 20.

Heh . . . This is funny. The 1000 Years is ENDING in Revelation 20:7. The fact that John mentions him ‘bound’ five verses earlier is throwing you for a loop. That chaining took place way back in Revelation 1 and perhaps nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise. That is why your interpretation will never make sense to me either . . .

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

Re: The Day Of The Lord Is As A Thousand Years

Hi Coop:

Thank you very much for writing. We disagree over the timing of the start and end of the "Day of the Lord." Hopefully this post helps you understand my view a better Light.

Terral Original >> The ‘thousand years’ begins way back in Revelation 1:10 with John standing just inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord). Satan was chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) in the voice of the trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) heard “behind†John in that verse. The thousand years just passed in Revelation 1-20 and Satan is released “when the thousand years is completed,†just like Scripture says. The ‘day of the Lord’ AND the ‘thousand years’ is the SAME EXACT THING, but this very simple fact has escaped your notice . . . 2 Peter 3:8-10.

Coop >> Terral, aren't you "stretching" here just a little? The Lord's day, is referring to Sunday. It was on a Sunday that John was "in the spirit." When does this "thousand year" reign of Christ start? Perhaps we can answer this by this verse:

Heh . . . It never ceases to amaze me that folks translate the “Lord’s Day†(Revelation 1:10) into one particular “Sunday†to prop up their own interpretations. No sir. Scripture is referring to John standing just inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) and the trumpet behind him is our trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) that Paul says sounds when the “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) is AT HAND (2 Thessalonians 2:2) or “COMES.†That event took place ‘behind’ John, because the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) had already started. Paul is describing events connected to the “Mystery†(Ephesians 3:3), which is why the term ‘musterion’ is found in 1 Corinthians 15:51 (mystery). Christ then appears to John with His brand new ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12 = that’s us) to START the “Day of the Lord,†just like Paul says in both of his letters to the Thessalonians. The seven churches of Revelation 1-3 are part of THAT “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord), but our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is already “IN†the Lamb in the “center of the throne†(Revelation 7:17). John does not see ‘us,’ because we are part of ‘THE MYSTERY’ (Ephesians 3:3).

[quote:0d4d4]Coop Quotes >> Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Coop Commentary >> When does this take place? It seems that it is right after the battle of Armageddon.

No sir! What makes you say such a thing? Revelation 20 is an OVERVIEW of the entire 1000 years that began back in Revelation 1:10 with John and Satan being bound by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) sounding off “BEHIND†John. The 1000 years is taking place from Revelation 1 to Revelation 20, so Satan can be released at the END of the same 1000 Years. You guys are starting ANOTHER 1000 Years at the END of Revelation, when in reality there is only ONE. Satan AND His Beast are already free in Revelation 13 and you guys are missing the boat on this one badly . . . There is one and only one Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16 described over and over again in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. You guys are transforming this single battle into separate accounts that are separated by 1000 years, because you FAIL to realize that there is only ‘one’ “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) that beings in Revelation 1 and ends in Revelation 20:15 with the Judgment.

Coop >> Therefore, I would conclude that the thousand year reign starts with the this binding of Satan. However, what is a few days one way of another, when we are speaking of a thousand years?

The 1000 Years STARTS in Revelation 1 and ENDS in Revelation 20. All of the events between and including those two chapters are “Day of the Lord†events. Revelation 1-3 is an overview of the entire 1000 Years in seven church periods. Then John is caught up and begins describing the very ‘end of the age’ events from various perspectives over and over and over again. Satan and His Beast and the False Prophet are all released at the ‘end of the age,’ so the “son of destruction†(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) can come to the Holy Place (Matthew 24:15) and set up his “ abomination of desolation†(Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13). Daniel tells you the exact number of days (Daniel 12:11-13) from that (Matthew 24:15) to the ‘end of the age,’ which marks the time that Christ returns (Matthew 24:30-31 = Zechariah 14:1-6) to judge the living (Matthew 25:31-33) AND the dead (Revelation 20:11-15).

The Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) AND Satan (Revelation 20:10) are already in the lake of fire BEFORE that final judgment even BEGINS (Revelation 20:11-15). There is no second 1000 Years beginning in Revelation 20! NONE. Satan has already been bound in the pit for the 1000 Years “Lord’s Day†(Revelation 1:10) that began back in Revelation 1. Peter’s kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) church was ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) 2000 years ago, but is resurrected with us to START the 1000 years back in Revelation 1:10 behind John. They are the ones on the sea of glass (Revelation 4:6, Revelation 15:2) “before the throne†(Revelation 7:14-15) throughout this account.

John sees those coming out of the “Great Tribulation†back in Revelation 7:14 and those members are added to those ‘before the throne’ (Revelation 7:15), because they are the ‘kingdom of priests’ (Exodus 19:6, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10) addressed by Peter (1 Peter 2:9) and James (James 1:1 = twelve tribes). This should tell you that Revelation 7 is beyond the time of Matthew 24:15, because the “Great Tribulation†BEGINS after Matthew 24:21! The truth (I swear to all of you) that the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24:4-29 BEGIN in Revelation 4-7 and continue to be retold over and over again. All of these ‘end of the age’ events lead up to the one war to end all wars described in Revelation 16, Revelation 19 and Revelation 20, which is the “Battle of Armageddon†(Revelation 16:16). Do you see the ‘great wine press of the wrath of God’ in Revelation 14:19? That is the same battle told from another perspective.

Terral Original>> Satan was chained by the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) in the voice of the trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) heard “behind†John in that verse.

Coop >> Another stretch? Please explain how you can believe this? There is nothing in these verses that even mention Satan being bound. however, we do see him bound by Michael in Rev. 20.

The ‘voice of the archangel’ with the ‘sound of the trumpet’ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the key to unlocking that door. That event took place ‘behind’ John (Revelation 1:10), which you understand by realizing that our Rapture takes place when the “day of the Lord†is ‘at hand’ (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Michael’s War with the Dragon took place long ago, which is how we find him in this Creation with his darkness back in Genesis 1:2. God is showing Christ types given to John about things ‘past’ (in Revelation 12) that are being carried out in our ‘future.’ Satan being cast down into this Universe is typical of him being thrown down onto the earth to incarnate among men at the ‘end of the age.’ The ‘earth’ (Revelation 12:12-13) is this entire seen universe, as the ‘sea’ is the unseen heavens. However, upon his release from the pit in Revelation 20:7, he will walk the earth among men and lead the way for his Beast (Revelation 13).

Terral Original >> The thousand years just passed in Revelation 1-20

Coop >> Are you pulling these things right out of thin air? How do you get this? How can the thousand years end before it has even started? It does not start until Rev 20.

Heh . . . This is funny. The 1000 Years is ENDING in Revelation 20:7. The fact that John mentions him ‘bound’ five verses earlier is throwing you for a loop. That chaining took place way back in Revelation 1 and perhaps nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise. That is why your interpretation will never make sense to me either . . .

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral[/quote:0d4d4]

I believe you have a very vivid imagination.

Coop

 

[Terral]

Our Mystery Rapture Is When the Day of the Lord Is "At

Hi Lecoop:

Thank you for writing.

Lecoop >> Actually, Vic, this was a good post. I understand your words, "Satan's persecution." You just used different words. Jesus called it "great tribulation." No matter what the words, it will be the Holocaust times ten, or worse, and it will undoubtedly be world wide.

If we are talking about the ‘Great Tribulation,’ then simply say that and avoid the confusion. We should look at Vic’s statements again in context to his attempt to prove what ‘is not’ part of Scripture.

Vic Original (Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:34 pm) >> When viewing it this way, Jay is 100% correct; there is no seven year Tribulation period. You will never find it in scripture. The Day of the Lord is associated with wrath; God's wrath to be exact. Read Zephaniah or do a OT study on "The Day of the Lord". You cannot put Satan's period of persecution after God's Wrath, nor can you have any portion of the two going on simultaneously. Satan's power wil be rendered all but useless once The Wrath begins.

If you wish to congratulate Vic for these statements, then perhaps you can clear things up that he left unaddressed. First off, Daniel describes a ‘one week’ period divided in half (middle of the week) in Daniel 9:27. When you add the number of days from his prophecy to itself (1290 in Daniel 12:11), then that just happens to come very near seven years. The ‘Great Tribulation’ (Revelation 7:14) BEGINS after that ‘abomination of desolation’ is set up (Matthew 24:15), which tells you that this “Great Tribulation†period is definitely LESS than even 3.5 years. Since the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) takes place DURING this Great Tribulation Period, then Vic’s original hypothesis above is dead wrong in saying “now can you have any portion of the two going simultaneously.†D’oh! God’s wrath (His fierce wrath = Revelation 16:19) is poured out during this last war to end all wars. How can you even begin to separate the ‘persecution of Satan’ ( = Great Tribulation) from God’s wrath poured out during the Battle described in Revelation 14, Revelation 16, Revelation 19 and Revelation 20?? Jay T’s original premise was indeed ‘wrong,’ because a ‘one week’ interpretation is derived from Daniel 9:27, whether Terral agrees with that or not. Christ describes ‘end of the age’ activities related to ‘Satan’s Persecution†(if you like that phrase) all the way back to Matthew 24:4-7, which indeed allows us to backtrack and start the ‘tribulation’ before the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matthew 24:15). Now your coming to defend Vic here appears also to be a note sang off key, because God’s wrath is indeed poured out during the Battle of Armageddon taking place during the Tribulation period that ‘ends’ this age.

Coop >> (Of course it will be difficult for the beast to find someone living in the NothWest territories!) People that head for the wilderness may survive. People that try to survive in a city will probably be found and killed.

Am I lost here or what do “northwest territories†have to do with anything?

Coop >> Let's talk about the "day of the Lord." Didn't Peter mention this? (snip question after question after question . . .).

Of course Peter mentions ‘this,’ and says that certain things should not escape your notice, which flies right past you like a Stealth Fighter going Mach Ten. A day to the Lord is “as a thousand years.†2 Peter 3:8. Our differences are over the ‘duration’ of time that exists during this ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) period part of the “Day of the Lord†itself. Christ connects those same ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7), about which NONE of you are willing to even make a comment. When does Elijah come to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) in your interpretation? Never?? Then who is the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26 coming to restore all things?? Who restores the ‘tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16-19) ‘after these things’ (Acts 15:16)??

There is much to reconcile within your own end time interpretations from God’s Word and you guys seem reluctant to even give it a gentleman’s try. Please correct me if my impression appears wrong . . .

Coop >> I believe you have a very vivid imagination.

That's it? Why even take the time to point out the errors in your interpretation? Please 'quote me >>' and point out the errors using Scripture in the same way I did for you . . . If you can . . . Silence is not very convincing to anyone . . .

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

OK Terral, since you asked.

Of course Peter mentions ‘this,’ and says that certain things should not escape your notice, which flies right past you like a Stealth Fighter going Mach Ten. A day to the Lord is “as a thousand years.†2 Peter 3:8.

My answer? So what? God sees time a little differently that we do. Does this mean that every time we see "day," we think 1000 years? Of course not! For instance, 1260 days means just that - 1260 evenings and mornings. Try explaining this to a 7th day adventist.

Our differences are over the ‘duration’ of time that exists during this ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) period part of the “Day of the Lord†itself.

You keep bringing up ‘times and epochs’ as though this phrase has some real "clue" to the end times. This is not a hint or a clue, and has very little meaning at all. In fact, Paul was referring to the time that they were living. What he said had to have meaning then also. All Paul was saying is that they (the Thesolonians) knew what signs to look for when the day of the lord was getting close. This is sort of what Jesus said, "ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" You speak of this as if it were some extended period of special time. It is not. There is no "duration" of signs pointing towards something.



Christ connects those same ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7), about which NONE of you are willing to even make a comment.

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Again, this is not a "period of time," or some duration of time. Jesus is mearly saying that the timing of events is in God's power.

When does Elijah come to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) in your interpretation? Never?? Then who is the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26 coming to restore all things??

Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

This is the very reason why people are not answering you. Your doctrines are just too wild. Who is this prophet mentioned in verse 22? Peter is talking about the Christ. He is the one that they will hear in all things. God the Father is the one that will restore all things, and then Jesus will be subject to Him. You still don't get this one either:

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


Why did Jesus say that the "Elias" that was to come was John the Baptist? You asked, "what did he restore?" John had to come first, so that Jesus could come. In that way, John "restored all things," for He allowed Jesus to come on the scene, which was the beginning of all things being restored. It is not a man that "restores all things." It is God. John "paved the way" for God to become a man, which was the beginning of the restoration.
You totally miss this phrase: "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already..." Jesus is saying that the prophecies of the old testament concerning Elijah coming again were fulfilled in John. Is this too hard to see? There is no prophet coming that will "restore all things." God is the one that will do it.





Who restores the ‘tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16-19) ‘after these things’ (Acts 15:16)??

The Jews will build the next temple. However, I suspect that Jesus will cause another one to be built: Ezekiel's temple.

There is much to reconcile within your own end time interpretations from God’s Word and you guys seem reluctant to even give it a gentleman’s try. Please correct me if my impression appears wrong . . .

Quote:
Coop >> I believe you have a very vivid imagination.


That's it? Why even take the time to point out the errors in your interpretation? Please 'quote me >>' and point out the errors using Scripture in the same way I did for you . . . If you can . . . Silence is not very convincing to anyone . . .

It is your vivid imagination that seeks to point out our "errors." Perhaps the errors are in your own ballpark.

Coop

 

[Terral]

Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing.

Coop >> It is your vivid imagination that seeks to point out our "errors." Perhaps the errors are in your own ballpark.

Perhaps? Heh . . . That is what you are here to point out using Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15. If you had found one error in anything I wrote above, then we would be looking at that instead of this little love letter. You guys are connecting Paul’s ‘mystery’ (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to the ‘Great Tribulation’ of Matthew 24:21 for NO GOOD REASON. Christ is describing the END OF THE AGE (Matthew 24:3 +), but Paul is describing the 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord†(2 Peter 3:10, 2 Thessalonians 5:1-2) STARTING (2 Thessalonians 2:2) some 1000 Years EARLIER. What errors are you talking about? Please point out just one and explain what makes that wrong using Scripture. Paul says the ‘times and epochs’ are connected directly to the “day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). Christ says the ‘times and epochs’ period is when the kingdom is restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). Are you saying that either of these passages exists in Terral’s imagination? Peter says that heaven must hold Christ by the hand, until the times of restoration of ‘all things’ spoken by the OT Prophets (Acts 3:21).

Who is the prophet of his prophecy in Acts 3:22-26 coming to restore all things? Christ says that person is Elijah (Matthew 17:10-11) as no other prophet is connected to the restoration of “all things†(Matthew 17:10-11, Acts 3:21) other than Elijah. If you can find one, then please show me. This means that the “Day of the Lord†has a DURATION of TIME that SEPARATES the start (2 Thessalonians 2:2) of the “Day of the Lord†AND the END of the same ‘times and epochs’ restoration period that Christ is describing in Matthew 24. Satan is in the pit for the same 1000 Years (Revelation 20:5) that Elijah is down here on the earth restoring all things to be released at the END of that same period (Revelation 20:7). The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (that we do not even preach today), then goes to the whole world (Matthew 24:14) so the antichrist can appear in that restored Temple (Matthew 24:15) very near the ‘end of the age.’ Christ then appears after him in Matthew 24:30 to stop him from destroying the entire world and all life (Matthew 24:22) on this planet. Those living in the restored kingdom will anticipate the END OF THE AGE, but you and I are looking forward to the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†COMING (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That places the END (Matthew 24:3 +) of the same 1000 Years period some 1000 Years IN THE FUTURE.

If anything appears out of place here, then please point that out using Scripture. Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Jay T]

Re: Daniel's "One Week" Represents Those Seven Yea

Hi JayT:

JayT >> There is no 7 year Tribulation period in the Bible.

Thank you for writing. We most certainly disagree. Daniel provides all of the components teaching the seven years of tribulation and he even gives the precise number of days.

[quote:afd21]"And he* will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:27.

[/quote:afd21]Yes, Jesus caused the sacrifical system contained in the Law of Moses to cease, by becoming the GREAT sacrifice Himself, which occurred in the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27.

 

[lecoop]

Terral said
You guys are connecting Paul’s ‘mystery’ (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to the ‘Great Tribulation’ of Matthew 24:21 for NO GOOD REASON.

Sorry, but I don't do that. I do not believe that the rapture is found in the Olivet Discourse. (In this one small area, we are in agreement! : -)) )

Christ is describing the END OF THE AGE (Matthew 24:3 +),

Yes, the end of the age, NOT INCLUDING the millennium.

but Paul is describing the 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord†(2 Peter 3:10, 2 Thessalonians 5:1-2) STARTING (2 Thessalonians 2:2) some 1000 Years EARLIER.

You are back to your imagination again! Where do we first read about the 1000 years? Let's search on "thousand."

Other than feeding, and other misc. uses, such as counts for people and angels, we find this verse first in the New Testament:

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I know you like to quote this, but this verse is just not speaking of the millennium.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

This is it! It is the "first mention" of the millennium in the New Testament. Where do we find it? After the 70th week is finished. After the battle of Armageddon. Why then, do you insist that it starts earlier than this? To me, this is silliness. The thousand years starts when satan is bound. It ends when he is loosed again. This is bible reading 101, adding no imagination.


What errors are you talking about? Please point out just one and explain what makes that wrong using Scripture.

I just did - several times. Please take off your "preconceived glasses," and just read it like it was written.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Terral said
What errors are you talking about? Please point out just one and explain what makes that wrong using Scripture. Paul says the ‘times and epochs’ are connected directly to the “day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). Christ says the ‘times and epochs’ period is when the kingdom is restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). Are you saying that either of these passages exists in Terral’s imagination?

Do I need to point out to you the times and seasons that we live in? Did you notice that Israel became a nation once again, (1948) fulfilling many OT prophecies? Did you happen to notice that the people groups living in the same lands as ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, Assyria, etc. (think the rise of the beast) all hate Israel, and want her destroyed? What am I speaking about? I am speaking about "times and seasons."

You see, you blow this simple phrase all out of proportion to what it is meant to mean. Of course "times and seasons" are related to the day of the Lord. Jesus gave signs to look for, such as the moon turning blood red. When people see signs, such as Israel becoming a nation once again, they should know that it is a sign telling them the season that they are living in. All the world should know that we are approaching the end of the age. However, most of the people in the world are marching steadily toward destruction, blindly. Why? Because they do not know the word of God.

Therefore, I suggest that you just get this phrase out of your mind, and read the passages without preconceived imaginary glasses on. All this phrase in meant to convey to the reader is that when you see signs - you know what season you are in.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Re: Daniel's "One Week" Represents Those Seven Yea

Hi JayT:

JayT >> There is no 7 year Tribulation period in the Bible.

Thank you for writing. We most certainly disagree. Daniel provides all of the components teaching the seven years of tribulation and he even gives the precise number of days.

[quote:3244d]"And he* will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:27.

Yes, Jesus caused the sacrifical system contained in the Law of Moses to cease, by becoming the GREAT sacrifice Himself, which occurred in the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27.[/quote:3244d]

Perhaps it is not the 7 year time frame that he is disagreeing with, but the title you have applied to this 7 years. Where is this 7 year period called "the tribulation" in the bible? I think a better term would be the "70th week."

Coop

 

[Terral]

Seeming Contradiction In What You Are Saying

Hi Jay T:

Thank you for writing. Perhaps I am missing your point, so please help me to understand.

Scripture >> "And he* will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:27.

My point is that this 'one week' is divided in half (middle of the week) and Daniel also provides the number of days (1,290 = 3.5 years +/- few days) in Daniel 12:11. However, to that point you say something strange:

Jay T >> Yes, Jesus caused the sacrifical system contained in the Law of Moses to cease, by becoming the GREAT sacrifice Himself, which occurred in the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27.

The ‘he*’ in that verse is the antichrist and the ‘prince’ coming to make desolate. Christ told Israel that the Law would remain, until heaven and earth pass away (Matthew 5:18). He taught them that keeping the commandments was the way to ‘obtain eternal life.’ Matthew 19:16-17. The sacrificial system did not end with Calvary, but that ended forty years later with the destruction of Jerusalem. You appear to have your facts mixed up. Also, Ezekiel sees the sacrifices continuing in the restored Temple (Ezekiel 40 +), saying,

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17.

"On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.†Ezekiel 45:22.

If Christ put an end to the sacrificial system 2000 Years ago, then Ezekiel’s prophecies break Scripture which cannot be broken (John 10:35). The antichrist is going to enter the restored Temple (Matthew 24:15) and put an end to Ezekiel’s sacrifices, when he comes to set up his ‘abomination of desolation.’ Daniel says,

"Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation*.†Daniel 11:31.

Christ confirms this in Matthew 24:15 *, as an ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +) event, which you have tried to connect to events transpiring 2000 years ago. That is, unless you want to try and prove ‘two’ abomination of desolations’ being set up . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral