Biblical Election and Predestination

[Drew]

I don't need to argue to defend my position, because not only do I know for a fact that it's true because God has revealed it to me, but all those that are of God hear the truth, and they can discern truth from lies because they have the Spirit of truth living within them. You can argue all day long, but you've already failed.

Well indeed we differ in this respect. I am more than aware that my view might be mistaken and I am always ready to reconsider it. Unlike yourself, I do not know for a "fact" that my views about this are correct. I will very likely change my views on election, at least to some degree.

Unlike yourself, I do not have "an inner voice" that tells me what is true, bypassing the more mundane human faculties of reading Scripture, knowing what the words and concepts in it mean, interpreting sentences, accounting for context, discerning parallels (such as the one between chapter 3 and 9), trying to be consistent etc.

If you have this "direct revelation of the truth" and do not need to work out your "theology" by applying your mental faculties to the Scriptures, then you are certainly more blessed than I am in this respect.

 

[JayR]

"As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding."

"Blessed is the man who trusts only in the LORD."

How often do you cry out to God for truth? How often do you cry out to God for wisdom? How often do you apply your heart to God's word rather than just your mind? "Apply your heart unto instruction." God's word isn't merely intellectual philosophy, it is real, and God reveals truth to His people because He burns it into the reality of their hearts and it radically sets them free from sin and transforms them into the image of Christ by the grace of God.

 

[JayR]

"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.â€Â
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?â€Â
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

Human beings are not free. Jesus Himself taught that they are slaves to sin. Notice how Jesus Himself argues against the statement that they were free. He says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin." And He also says, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

The Son makes us free from sin, we don't free ourselves by choosing to follow Him. He makes us free.

 

[Orion]

There is no way for me to know that. God knows.

You're kidding, right? Of course you do. I don't feel "God's call in my life", so then I must be one that was born to be damned to Hell! Right? If I'm not hearing God's call, is God calling me? Would God not have "called me from the foundation of the world", in other words, I would have had this call, and KNOWN it for all my life, right?

 

[JayR]

"But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’†(that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’†(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

I don't know. God knows.

Have you heard the Gospel?

 

[Orion]

"But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’†(that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’†(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

I don't know. God knows.

Have you heard the Gospel?

I know the gospel message very well.

 

[JayR]

Would God not have "called me from the foundation of the world", in other words, I would have had this call, and KNOWN it for all my life, right?

I don't know. I never claimed that those who are called are aware of the call all their life. What I said is that from the foundations of the world God in His omniscience and providence and by the counsel of His will knew that He would call His elect and draw them to and give them to His Son. Does that necessarily mean that they are aware of the call in their unconverted state? Maybe, but maybe not, who knows? If you are God's elect, then in God's time He is going to save you no matter what you choose or don't choose to do. Nothing is going to stop Him from bringing His elect to His Son to be held in Christ's infinite saving power. Is there some way for me to know if you are part of the elect? No. The Scripture I just gave you says that not only do I not know that, but even if I did I shouldn't say it, not even in my own heart.

You know the Gospel? Alright. In order to fully be assured of that, tell me without any outside resources from your own heart what the Gospel is.

 

[Orion]

Would God not have "called me from the foundation of the world", in other words, I would have had this call, and KNOWN it for all my life, right?

I don't know. I never claimed that those who are called are aware of the call all their life. What I said is that from the foundations of the world God in His omniscience and providence and by the counsel of His will knew that He would call His elect and draw them to and give them to His Son. Does that necessarily mean that they are aware of the call in their unconverted state? Maybe, but maybe not, who knows? If you are God's elect, then in God's time He is going to save you no matter what you choose or don't choose to do. Nothing is going to stop Him from bringing His elect to His Son to be held in Christ's infinite saving power. Is there some way for me to know if you are part of the elect? No. The Scripture I just gave you says that not only do I not know that, but even if I did I shouldn't say it, not even in my own heart.

You know the Gospel? Alright. In order to fully be assured of that, tell me without any outside resources from your own heart what the Gospel is.

In my own heart, I feel the gospel is this. . . . . and the person of Jesus was the figuration on the earth of that which was taking place in the Spiritual. That being, the forgiveness of that which would be labeled as "sin", just as the ancient offerings of bulls and lambs was a "looking forward" of the Hebrew culture. Even though we all do acts of "sin", regardless of our spiritual walk and/or strength, those things are no longer held against us because the penalty had been done away with.

That's probably the short answer.

 

[JayR]

There are shadows of truth in that statement, but that is in no way the Gospel message in it's entirety. In fact, that is not the Gospel because it's so lacking in the major truths that the Gospel is composed of. You haven't heard the Gospel before.
This is the Gospel:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 2607154858

I suggest you listen to it. It is the power of God to salvation.

 

[Orion]

There are shadows of truth in that statement, but that is in no way the Gospel message in it's entirety. In fact, that is not the Gospel because it's so lacking in the major truths that the Gospel is composed of. You haven't heard the Gospel before.
This is the Gospel:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 2607154858

I suggest you listen to it. It is the power of God to salvation.

No, you asked me what was MY thoughts, without any other outside resources. I know the Christian version of the "plan of salvation". But I don't see the entirety of the common Canon to be the "complete inerrant word of God", so that's why I stated it as I did. I'm not a Calvanist, nor any other typical label, because I don't personally believe that the Canon was God's own words, but human's ideas of what they think God would say.

Fact is, you believe, and have your own scriptures, that state one idea. Someone else has a belief, and THEIR own scriptures that state another idea. You both can't be right, but none the less, we have various sub groups in Christianity that believe THEY have it all figured out, and the other sub group is wrong, if not heretical. If the entirety of the Bible was flawless, you would have ONE group, all united under the same focus, . . . . . and that isn't the case. You believe that only those called will be saved, and the obviously unjust notion of people having absolutely no way of being saved because God doesn't WANT them to. Another group says, ". . . .that whosoever believes. . . . .". Who's right? Are you both wrong? . . . . . . . . Who really knows? :-?

 

[GraceBwithU]

There is no way for me to know that. God knows.

There is also noway for you to know that you are saved by the words that you preach...here.

 

[JayR]

It is whosoever believes, but the only people who will believe or are capable of believing are God's elect, and they are only capable of believing because God causes them to believe by the power of His Spirit in regeneration. That Gospel message is not "the plan of salvation" or the "Roman Road" or "Four Spiritual Laws". Those things are trash formulated by "theologians" who don't understand salvation or the power of God in regeneration. That message is the Gospel of Jesus Christ being proclaimed in truth, and it is the power of God to salvation. You have never heard it before, because if you had, you would have stated the truths which are contained in the Gospel, the powerful truths that give God the ability to justify wicked men. Your version of the gospel is not the Gospel. If you want to know what the Gospel is, and if you want to know if you are part of the elect, you are going to have to listen to it, because the Gospel is the power of God to salvation.

 

[JayR]

There is also noway for you to know that you are saved by the words that you preach...here.

Actually, I know for a fact that I'm saved, because the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. Also, God regenerated me and causes me to walk in His statutes and to keep His judgments like His word says He will. I fear the LORD like He promises that His people will for their own good, and the book of 1 John testifies that I am a child of God and that I know Him. Plus I experience His grace, power and presence daily because He is so gracious to an undeserving sinner like myself.

 

[Orion]

JayR, you're wrong. I know the Christian "Romans Road", "plan of Salvation", all the terms you want to give it, and I lived it for most all my life, earnestly! However, answers to questions I have go unanswered, ideaologies are left unto me empty. I was left wondering how to reconcile my questions and concerns, . . . so I started coming onto these types of boards to find answers, and it has only caused me to question even more.

Regardless, I have heard it, and actually do hope in it, if you want to know the truth. But just because Paul says something, I'm not going to blindly accept that he was gaining some sort of divine revelation in each word he wrote.

Did Jesus go to Hell after he died?

 

[JayR]

No, you're wrong.

No wonder you're lost. The Roman Road is a decietful tool of the devil. It is NOT the Gospel. You haven't heard the Gospel. The gospel you spoke to me was a watered down powerless version of the Gospel. You have not heard the Gospel. Listen to that message and hear the real Gospel, it is the power of God to salvation, not the Roman Road or the plan of salvation. Those are trash.

Hear that message and it may answer your question.

 

[JayR]

Jesus went to "Sheol" which means the grave. I don't know whether He actually went to hell or not though.

 

[Orion]

The "Romans Road" is just a term for the same thing. Man is a sinner, Jesus came to free them of sin, nd those who repent and believe will be saved. IF it is only for those who God calls, meaning that God specifically wants MANY to burn in Hell forever, then that is not a "plan of salvation", and has nothing to do with you. As you believe, YOU are saved because you [in your mind] have done this and this and this and "feel God's presence" and , . . .and . . .and. . . . . . .yet, you still can't know. You may have the greatest FAITH that you are, but YOU still won't know [in your salvation ideaology] that you actually are.

By the way, I am listening to that link right now. There ARE, in fact, atheist, . . .those who aren't "doing so becaue they actually hate God". That's rediculous. They are so because they utilize the scientific method and the spiritual is beyond that.

JayR, if you were born in Iraq, you would be fundamentalistically Muslim. If you were born in India, you would be Hindu. These are people who firmly believe their religion and have faith in it. You just happened to be born in a Christian nation.

But seriously, for the question about Jesus going to Hell, you openly admit that you don't know if he went to Hell?

 

[JayR]

I know that I'm saved. That's a fact, and nothing you could possibly say could ever move me in respect to knowing that.

No. There are no atheists. There are sinners who deny and repress the obvious truth that there is a God, who know deep down under their deceitful hatred for God that He exists. Underneath all of the deciet and venom that they have for God and His people, underneath that hateful and decietful show, they know He exists.

This is NOT a Christian nation. This is a pagan nation filled with hypocrites who don't know God but claim to. If I was born on Mars, God would have saved me, and I would have been a Christian, because I am part of God's elect.

 

[Orion]

What about me? I can have ultra faith in God, do all the things I'm supposed to do, do them earnestly, but if God didn't call me, then it's all in vain, right? How can you know?
You can insist and insist, but you don't know God's mind, thus don't know who he called!

Yes, there are atheists. There really are people who see religion as a type of "insanity". They are not venomous towards God, whether you or the preacher [I'm listening to] state they do!

You know what I mean when I say "a Christian nation". We have a church on every corner, REGARDLESS of whether or not you believe them heretical. . . . Christian bookstores with access to the Bible, few places to even find literature from other religions nearly as easily.

The preacher says that God saves because of his love, and for his Glory, yet MOST people who have ever been born [again, according to your ideologies] were born for the specific purpose for destruction in Hell, and for the Glory of God!! Love??? :-? Explain how that is love . . . that the vaste majority are born to suffer extreme pain and torture, for the pleasure of God??? :-?

"Outside of Christ, you have nothing to do with God and God has nothing to do with you, except judgement". And according to you, it doesn't matter, AND God CHOOSES to have nothing to do with you, if you are born to destruction.

 

[JayR]

Orion. I have to go to work now. Stop worrying about this forum for now and listen to that message with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. I'll pray for you. God bless you according to the counsel of His will.