Bible Study Biblical inerrancy - even the talking donkey?

[Kmaxb]

Did you read my post?

How did Moses know what Abraham’s wife Sarah said within herself, hundreds of years in the past?

How did Moses know the particular details of the Tabernacle that is in heaven, so he could follow the exact details in building the Tabernacle in the wilderness?

The Lord spoke to him, and thus inspired him to make a record of each and every detail.

Yep! I read it couple times and thought it was well said. You were referring to Biblical authors though, I was referring in my post to early church fathers, post resurrection. And I would expand that to the various Catholic leaders leading up to the reforms of Martin Luther. Were the decisions made over those several centuries to remove various books from the Bible inspired in the same way God inspired every word written by the original biblical authors?

 

[hawkman]

By the way, I don't actually have a strong opinion either way on whether or not Job is historical.

Besides the Book of James we have more references to Job .
Ezekiel CH 14 , the words of a prophet here. Job was a real person otherwise this would not have been said of him .
12The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

13Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Not part of the cannon but in the book of Jasher CH 66 .
15 And an officer, one of the king's counsellors, whose name was Job, from Mesopotamia, in the land of Uz, answered the king, saying,
16 If it please the king, let him hear the counsel of his servant; and the king said unto him, Speak.
17 And Job spoke before the king, the princes, and before all the elders of Egypt, saying,

 

[Kmaxb]

Besides the Book of James we have more references to Job .
Ezekiel CH 14 , the words of a prophet here. Job was a real person otherwise this would not have been said of him .
12The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

13Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Not part of the cannon but in the book of Jasher CH 66 .
15 And an officer, one of the king's counsellors, whose name was Job, from Mesopotamia, in the land of Uz, answered the king, saying,
16 If it please the king, let him hear the counsel of his servant; and the king said unto him, Speak.
17 And Job spoke before the king, the princes, and before all the elders of Egypt, saying,

A very strong argument!

 

[Hidden In Him]

James could also make reference to the prodigal son, but that wouldn't make the prodigal son historical would it?

Rarely.... I'm trying to think.... almost never did the apostles make reference to the parables. Writers like Jude especially - also Peter, also Paul - would make reference to Old Testament stories and allegories from Jewish traditions, but the parables rarely featured.

By the way, I don't actually have a strong opinion either way on whether or not Job is historical. To me both arguments make some pretty good points.

If you take the position that Job was not a historical figure, you then have to assume that James, leader of the church in Jerusalem until his death, was misguided in his beliefs and uninformed about the true meaning of scripture. Any "scholar" who should take this position is the one doing the misleading. Modern scholars who place themselves above the authority of New Testament writers assume way too much about themselves.

 

[JLB]

I was referring in my post to early church fathers, post resurrection.

If you mean church fathers as in those who wrote scripture then it God’s word.

If you mean Catholic writings that is after scripture then I don’t trust it because it’s just the writings and doctrine of man.

 

[miamited]

I think He could do anything he pleases, I just wonder if He would do that.

Ok, so let's go with your account. The donkey didn't talk. Was the donkey there? I mean, is the rest of the account factual in any way? Was the angel there that the donkey seemed to be fearful of? Or, is it your understanding that the entire account is some fable with spiritual value that we are to glean from it?

Did God tell Balaam to go with a group of men that had come to get him? Did Balaam then get up in the morning and saddle his donkey and head off? Did Balaam ultimately see the angel of the Lord in the roadway or didn't he? You just find it hard to believe that God could make a donkey carry on a normal conversation with a man. Why?

God has ultimate power over every single thing in His created realm. He as the power to merely pinpoint the firstborn of an entire nation of people in one night. He has the power to make the sun to stand still in sky and for a shadow to move backwards from its normal forward progress. God has the power to tear a whole in the night sky so that a band of lowly shepherds could see the angels rejoicing in heaven that Jesus had come to save us from our sin. But He can't make a simple animal talk in a human language.

Of course He can and I'm assured that He did. This story is an account of how God dealt with a man during the period in which His purpose was to build up a nation of people who were beholden to Him. A nation of people who He would use to write down all the words of love and encouragement of what His purpose was in creating this realm in which we live. And God had that donkey speak to that man just as God had the sun to stand still in the sky over Israel as they battled. Just as God made a shadow cast across a flight of stairs to go backwards to make a point to a king who was asking if God could really do what He said He would do. Just as God made an iron ax head float.

 

[Who Me]

Rereading this thread I'm struck that you accept the big miracles but struggle to accept smaller issues and details.

God created everything with a series of words over 6 days, yet cannot ensure the sex of a character carrying some bread and fish, is accurately recorded.

Ultimately you have to decide whether you can trust God over big issues and little issues in the bible.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What do most Christians really believe in regards to Biblical inerrancy? Is there flexibility?

I believe in biblical inerrancy, but I don't believe in translational inerrancy. No bible translation is perfect, not even KJV. It's like watching a grainy VHS tape, you know. You get the gist of the video, but various details are fuzzy.

 

[Corn Pop]

When it comes.es to the bible I do struggle to comprehend some stories and although it's inspired by God humans do fail and there are many translations that give different contexts.

One thing I struggle with is in Acts where Jesus goes up to heaven in bodily form as his diciples are looking towards the sky. If he went up from earth in the body and the law of physics would say correct me if im wrong unless he was Spirit he cannot break the laws of physics. Where is Jesus now after 2000 years even if he was travelling at near the speed of light if he had mass?. He wouldn't even be out of our galaxy. How could he breath?. Where is Jesus if he left the earth in bodily form and was walking around and talking to people and then just gets beamed up into space?

Is the bible both literal and symbolic and figurative and spiritual and whatever else, yet is still inspired by God. Did Jonah literally get swallowed by a whale and live in a whale for 3 days?, and Lots wife literally turned into salt?. Maybe she decided to turn and she wanted to go back and probably died from the situation and that's all there is to it. And the saying goes she turned into a pillar of salt.

Everything is prophetic and symbolic and in harmony and incredible how accurate the bible is especially when it comes to and everything leads to Christ, but is everything to be taken literal?

I struggle and always have questions.

Unless it's spiritual or there is some alien stuff going on Jesus left earth and went up in a UFO or there is some wormhole or something and bending space or some science type stuff im confused.

 

[Who Me]

he cannot break the laws of physics.

Actually every miracle he did broke the laws, as we know them, of science.
Walking on water, calming instantly a storm that frighten experienced fishermen, raising the dead, instant healings etc etc

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

he cannot break the laws of physics.

There's no "laws" of physics, only empirical evidence of physics or pure hypothesis under certain conditions. The purpose of science is not ruling and governing, but to explain natural phenomenons. It's like 1+1=2, it's a description of common observation, it has no legislating power or moral value. If a law is seemingly "broken", then what usually happens is that those certain conditions of that law no longer apply, for example water usually boils at 212 F/100 C, but in a vacuum, it can boil at room temperature. Or a such a law is inconclusive or erroneous in the first place, when new empirical evidence emerges and challenges the old hypothesis.

 

[Corn Pop]

There's no "laws" of physics, only empirical evidence of physics or pure hypothesis under certain conditions. The purpose of science is not ruling and governing, but to explain natural phenomenons. It's like 1+1=2, it's a description of common observation, it has no legislating power or moral value. If a law is seemingly "broken", then what usually happens is that those certain conditions of that law no longer apply, for example water usually boils at 212 F/100 C, but in a vacuum, it can boil at room temperature. Or a such a law is inconclusive or erroneous in the first place, when new empirical evidence emerges and challenges the old hypothesis.

How could Jesus suddenly get beamed up into the sky in bodily form as the diciples were there and were looking to the sky where two men appeared and prophecied and said what are you looking at the same way you have seen him go he will come back.

That is the question. If Jesus left earth in the body, in the flesh, like all other humans, then he is not a Spirit. He wpukd have to be in human bodily form and flesh somewhere and will return the same way. So where is he?. Some planet in the galaxy?.I dont know. I always question God in good faith. Nothing wrong with questioning God and asking for answers if someone is unsure or confused.

He had to have been picked up in a UFO or something. I mean all the stone aged people they always symbolised that stuff in like cave art and even Ezekiels dream like wheels within wheels and stuff how anyone comprehend that vision please let me know.

Ok maybe im getting a little carried away, but it's intense trying to comprehend and make sense of some things from thousands of years ago.

 

[Corn Pop]

Maybe Christ is still here.

"Then Moses entered the cloud as he went on up the mountain. And he stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights".

I don't think Jesus went anywhere. He is still on earth. He is here with us on earth somewhere. He went for a walk up a mountain and he's somewhere on earth.

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KVJ.

I think Jesus might still be on earth and he is somewhere here on earth with us. Thats great. When he's ready he will make his presence known. I don't know. It adds up. He went for a walk up a mountain and went out of sight as the dicioles watched on. And the two who prophecied as he was out of sight said he will come back the same way. He's probably roaming around doing miracles and no one even knows its Jesus.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How could Jesus suddenly get beamed up into the sky in bodily form as the diciples were there and were looking to the sky where two men appeared and prophecied and said what are you looking at the same way you have seen him go he will come back.

That is the question. If Jesus left earth in the body, in the flesh, like all other humans, then he is not a Spirit. He wpukd have to be in human bodily form and flesh somewhere and will return the same way. So where is he?. Some planet in the galaxy?.I dont know. I always question God in good faith. Nothing wrong with questioning God and asking for answers if someone is unsure or confused.

He had to have been picked up in a UFO or something. I mean all the stone aged people they always symbolised that stuff in like cave art and even Ezekiels dream like wheels within wheels and stuff how anyone comprehend that vision please let me know.

Ok maybe im getting a little carried away, but it's intense trying to comprehend and make sense of some things from thousands of years ago.

Jesus logged out of the material realm and returned to the spiritual realm, that's how.

 

[Corn Pop]

Jesus logged out of the material realm and returned to the spiritual realm, that's how.

If he could go from material to spiritual why did he have to go into the sky?. He could have just instantly changed and disappeared. Just click his fingers and he's gone. Why fly into space?. And space is 360 there is no up or down. I'm not sure where a different realm is in the universe, and if spiritual is spiritual it would be massless, I would think the spiritual realm is out of space and time.

How did he go up. How could he fly of he was in human form how does someone just fly into space. Surely he would have got picked up in a UFO or something.

Maybe there is an answer and science just hasnt figured it out yet.

 

[Rxlx1]

A serpent spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden so why not have a donkey speak?

 

[Rxlx1]

If he could go from material to spiritual why did he have to go into the sky?. He could have just instantly changed and disappeared. Just click his fingers and he's gone. Why fly into space?. And space is 360 there is no up or down. I'm not sure where a different realm is in the universe, and if spiritual is spiritual it would be massless, I would think the spiritual realm is out of space and time.

How did he go up. How could he fly of he was in human form how does someone just fly into space. Surely he would have got picked up in a UFO or something.

Jesus and the faithful angels and Satan and his fallen angels are all spirits and can materialise and demat physical bodies or effect any time they wish.
I and a friend spoke to angels who dematte instantly.
UFOs are fallen angel's materialisations.

 

[Corn Pop]

A serpent spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden so why not have a donkey speak?

Depends if it's literal or not. The serpant could have just been the voices in her head and she was questioning herself, the serpant telling her its ok to eat the apple no problem and she's telling herself maybe it's not a good idea and then is like why not. Just spiritually influenced. It's just a name given as is like a snake that gives a deadly bite.

As for the donkey I don't know if it's to be taken literally, yet a donkey does have a voice box and can make noise so it's not impossible for a donkey to speak, a bird can literally talk and people trian them, not sure about a snake.

 

[Corn Pop]

It seems like with Adam and Eve they were walking with God blameless yet had a spiritual battle in there mind and got influenced and made the wrong decision and become aware. Same way like Jesus was offered temptation and didn't fall into the trap , that situation in scripture was probably a spiritual battle.

 

[Corn Pop]

Jesus did not get bit by the serpant so he passed the test, no temptation or influence trapped him. He walked with the Father as One, blameless. He won the spiritual battle so the serpant did not bite him and death has no power over him, he was crucified and put in a burial tomb and just rose from the dead. What a champion. What a winner. That is worthy of a standing ovation.