Biblical Mary!

[crossnote]

I have addressed this already. Those men are listed as the sons of another Mary (Mary the wife of Cleophas)

I addressed that in previous threads.

Here ---> https://christianforums.net/threads/mother-of-our-salvation.87054/post-1628144

Here ---> https://christianforums.net/threads/st-mary.78460/page-9

What??? Where does Scripture say that and how come they are called the brethren of Jesus?

 

[Walpole]

What??? Where does Scripture say that and how come they are called the brethren of Jesus?

Scripture states that Mary Cleophas (not Mary of Nazareth) was the mother of James and Joses. Ergo, "brother" cannot not mean uterine sibling in Matthew 13:55.

Matthew’s list of Mary Cleophas’ offspring is clearly abbreviated in Matthew 27:56 (i.e. he confines his list to the two eldest males). It stands to reason that Matthew would abbreviate this list, since we already know who James and Joses are from his longer list in Matthew 13:55.

Ergo, when James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are called Jesus’ “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, this can not mean uterine siblings based on the fact that St. Matthew names a different Mary as their mother.


In Jewish antiquity, "brother" had a much wider meaning than we modern Westerners use. When you see the word "brother" in Scripture, you cannot force a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, you skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family.

"The units comprising the village mispahah, or kinship group, were the families of early Israel. Because these families were agriculturists, their identity and survival were integrally connected with their material world - more specifically, with their arable land, their implements for working the land and processing its products, and their domiciles - as well as with the human and also animal components of the domestic group. In many ways, the term family household is more useful in dealing with early Israelite families (although that would not be the case for the monarchical period and later, when domestic unites were more varied in their spatial aspects and economic functions). Combining family, with its kingship meanings, and household, a more flexible term including both coresident and economic functions, has descriptive merit. The family household thus included a set of related people as well as residential buildings, outbuildings, tools, equipment, fields, livestock, and orchards; it sometimes also included household members who were not kin, such as "sojourners", war captives and servants." - Families in Ancient Israel: The Family in Early Israel, Carol Meyers, pgs. 13-14

In describing early archaeological excavation of homes in Israel...

"These dwelling clusters constitute evidence for a family unit in early Israel larger than that of the nuclear family (or conjugal couple with unmarried offspring). Each pillared house in a cluster may represent the living space of a nuclear family or parts thereof, but the shared courtyard space and common house walls of the linked buildings indicate a larger family grouping. Early Israelite dwelling unites were thus complex arrangements of several buildings and housed what we might call extended families. Furthermore, thee compound dwelling unites were not isolated buildings within a settlement of single-family homes." - Ibid, pg. 16

"The family was never so 'nuclear' as it is in the modern West." - Families in Ancient Israel: Marriage, Divorce and Family in Second Temple Judaism, John J. Collins, pg. 106

Source

 

[crossnote]

John 19:25: “But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”

This Mary the wife of Cleophas (Clopas) is called the mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas in Matthew 13:55.

Matthew abbreviates this list by simply naming the oldest two, James and Joseph in Matthew 27:56 as this Mary’s (Cleophas) sons.

Ergo, when James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are called Jesus’ “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, this can not mean uterine siblings based on the fact that St. Matthew names a different Mary as their mother.


In Jewish antiquity, "brother" had a much wider meaning than we modern Westerners use. When you see the word "brother" in Scripture, you cannot force a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, you skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family.

"The units comprising the village mispahah, or kinship group, were the families of early Israel. Because these families were agriculturists, their identity and survival were integrally connected with their material world - more specifically, with their arable land, their implements for working the land and processing its products, and their domiciles - as well as with the human and also animal components of the domestic group. In many ways, the term family household is more useful in dealing with early Israelite families (although that would not be the case for the monarchical period and later, when domestic unites were more varied in their spatial aspects and economic functions). Combining family, with its kingship meanings, and household, a more flexible term including both coresident and economic functions, has descriptive merit. The family household thus included a set of related people as well as residential buildings, outbuildings, tools, equipment, fields, livestock, and orchards; it sometimes also included household members who were not kin, such as "sojourners", war captives and servants." - Families in Ancient Israel: The Family in Early Israel, Carol Meyers, pgs. 13-14

In describing early archaeological excavation of homes in Israel...

"These dwelling clusters constitute evidence for a family unit in early Israel larger than that of the nuclear family (or conjugal couple with unmarried offspring). Each pillared house in a cluster may represent the living space of a nuclear family or parts thereof, but the shared courtyard space and common house walls of the linked buildings indicate a larger family grouping. Early Israelite dwelling unites were thus complex arrangements of several buildings and housed what we might call extended families. Furthermore, thee compound dwelling unites were not isolated buildings within a settlement of single-family homes." - Ibid, pg. 16

"The family was never so 'nuclear' as it is in the modern West." - Families in Ancient Israel: Marriage, Divorce and Family in Second Temple Judaism, John J. Collins, pg. 106

Source

S

This Mary the wife of Cleophas (Clopas) is called the mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas in Matthew 13:55.

No wife of Cleophas is mentioned in association with the children, only Jesus' sisters are added (I guess you will argue they are the other Mary's daughters? )...

Matthew 13:55-56 (KJV) Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

 

[Walpole]

S

No wife of Cleophas is mentioned in association with the children, only Jesus' sisters are added (I guess you will argue they are the other Mary's daughters? )...

Matthew 13:55-56 (KJV) Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Please re-read my post. I edited it to make it more clear after you replied.

 

[crossnote]

Please re-read my post. I edited it to make it more clear after you replied.

From John Gill (who, btw is one of the foremost in Hebrew studies...language and culture). ...


Is not this the carpenter's son? Meaning Joseph, who was by trade a carpenter, and whose son Jesus was supposed to be; and who very probably was now dead, which may be the reason he is not mentioned by name. The Greek word here used, signifies any mechanic, or artificer. The Syriac expresses it by a word, which signifies both a carpenter and a blacksmith; and Munster's Hebrew Gospel renders it, בן נפחא, "the blacksmith's son". But the generally received notion of the ancient Christians is, that he was a carpenter, and that Jesus was brought up to the same business, which lay in making ploughs and yokes1. This also appears, from the answer the Christian schoolmaster at Antioch gave to Libanius the sophister; who being big with expectation of Julian the apostate's getting the victory, asked the schoolmaster, what he thought the carpenter's son was doing? To which, after a short pause, he replied; O sophister! the Creator of all things, whom thou callest the carpenter's son, is making a coffin for Julian; who accordingly died in a few days after2. The Jews make mention of one Abba Joseph, הבנאי, "the builder", or carpenter3; but whether the same, is not certain. What they here say, was no doubt by way of derision and contempt; and yet the same phrase is used by them of a person of great note and fame, for his wisdom and knowledge: thus speaking of a difficult point, they4 say,

"לית נגר ולא בר נגר.

"no carpenter", or smith, or a carpenter's son, can solve this: says R. Shesheth, I am neither a carpenter, nor a carpenter's son, and I can solve it.

The gloss upon it is,

"a wise man, the son of a wise man.

Is not his mother called Mary? Plain Mary, without any other title, or civil respect; a poor spinstress, that got her bread by her hand labour: the Jews say5, she was a plaiter of women's hair, and treat her with the utmost scorn,

And his brethren; not strictly so, but either the sons of Joseph by a former wife; or Mary's, or Joseph's brothers or sisters sons, and so cousins to Christ; it being usual with the Jews to call such, and even more distant relations, brethren:

James; the son of Alphaeus, or Cleophas, one of Christ's disciples,

Mt 10:3 called the Lord's brother, Ga 1:19 and the same that wrote the epistle that bears his name:

and Joses; or Joseph, as the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel read; and which two names are one and the same: hence, in Talmudic writings, we often read of R. Jose, who is the same with R. Joseph6: this Joses is, by Dr. Lightfoot, conjectured to be the same with Joseph, called Barsabas, who was put in nomination for apostleship, after the death of Judas, Ac 1:23.

And Simon; or Symeon, the son of Cleophas, who is said7 to succeed James, as bishop of Jerusalem, and to be Christ's cousin, being son of Cleophas, the brother of Joseph, the supposed father of Christ:

and Judas; the same that is called Lebbaeus, and Thaddaeus,

Mt 10:3 and the brother of James, Lu 6:16 and the same that wrote the epistle that goes by his name. The Jews ought not to have made these remarks, since many of their great doctors were of mean parentage; as R. Zachariah was a butcher's son8, and R. Jochanan a blacksmith's son9; hence that advice of R. Juda ben Bethira10,

"take heed that ye do not reproach the sons of the common people, for from them comes forth the law.


1. Justin Martyr. Dialog. cum Tryph. p. 316.
2. Tripartit. Hist. 1. 6. c. 44.
3. Shemoth Rabba, sect. 13. fol. 99. 2.
4. T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 50. 2.
5. T. Bab. Sabbat. fol. 104. 2. Chagiga, fol. 4. 2. Sanhedrim, fol. 67. 1.
6. Vid. Juchasin, fol. 61. & 62.
7. Euseb. Eccl. Hist. 1. 3. c. 11.
8. Misn. Sota, c. 5. sect. 1.
9. T. Bab. Sanhedrim, fol. 96. 1.
10. Ib.

 

[JLB]

Thanks
The 12 sons of Jacob had 4 mothers

Can you share the scriptures that teach this ?

 

[crossnote]

Can you share the scriptures that teach this ?

I think he is referring to Rachel, Leah and the two ‘lie-ins’ Bilhah and Zilpah (say that 10 times quickly lol).

 

[Bible]

Two verses later...

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
(Mat 1:25)

Which means Joseph did have intercourse afterwards with Mary.

Not so
Lk 1:34 say no sex ever period!

 

[Bible]

Can you share the scriptures that teach this ?

Gen 29 & 30

 

[Walpole]

From John Gill (who, btw is one of the foremost in Hebrew studies...language and culture). ...


Is not this the carpenter's son? Meaning Joseph, who was by trade a carpenter, and whose son Jesus was supposed to be; and who very probably was now dead, which may be the reason he is not mentioned by name. The Greek word here used, signifies any mechanic, or artificer. The Syriac expresses it by a word, which signifies both a carpenter and a blacksmith; and Munster's Hebrew Gospel renders it, בן נפחא, "the blacksmith's son". But the generally received notion of the ancient Christians is, that he was a carpenter, and that Jesus was brought up to the same business, which lay in making ploughs and yokes1. This also appears, from the answer the Christian schoolmaster at Antioch gave to Libanius the sophister; who being big with expectation of Julian the apostate's getting the victory, asked the schoolmaster, what he thought the carpenter's son was doing? To which, after a short pause, he replied; O sophister! the Creator of all things, whom thou callest the carpenter's son, is making a coffin for Julian; who accordingly died in a few days after2. The Jews make mention of one Abba Joseph, הבנאי, "the builder", or carpenter3; but whether the same, is not certain. What they here say, was no doubt by way of derision and contempt; and yet the same phrase is used by them of a person of great note and fame, for his wisdom and knowledge: thus speaking of a difficult point, they4 say,

"לית נגר ולא בר נגר.

"no carpenter", or smith, or a carpenter's son, can solve this: says R. Shesheth, I am neither a carpenter, nor a carpenter's son, and I can solve it.

The gloss upon it is,

"a wise man, the son of a wise man.

Is not his mother called Mary? Plain Mary, without any other title, or civil respect; a poor spinstress, that got her bread by her hand labour: the Jews say5, she was a plaiter of women's hair, and treat her with the utmost scorn,

And his brethren; not strictly so, but either the sons of Joseph by a former wife; or Mary's, or Joseph's brothers or sisters sons, and so cousins to Christ; it being usual with the Jews to call such, and even more distant relations, brethren:

James; the son of Alphaeus, or Cleophas, one of Christ's disciples,

Mt 10:3 called the Lord's brother, Ga 1:19 and the same that wrote the epistle that bears his name:

and Joses; or Joseph, as the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel read; and which two names are one and the same: hence, in Talmudic writings, we often read of R. Jose, who is the same with R. Joseph6: this Joses is, by Dr. Lightfoot, conjectured to be the same with Joseph, called Barsabas, who was put in nomination for apostleship, after the death of Judas, Ac 1:23.

And Simon; or Symeon, the son of Cleophas, who is said7 to succeed James, as bishop of Jerusalem, and to be Christ's cousin, being son of Cleophas, the brother of Joseph, the supposed father of Christ:

and Judas; the same that is called Lebbaeus, and Thaddaeus,

Mt 10:3 and the brother of James, Lu 6:16 and the same that wrote the epistle that goes by his name. The Jews ought not to have made these remarks, since many of their great doctors were of mean parentage; as R. Zachariah was a butcher's son8, and R. Jochanan a blacksmith's son9; hence that advice of R. Juda ben Bethira10,

"take heed that ye do not reproach the sons of the common people, for from them comes forth the law.


1. Justin Martyr. Dialog. cum Tryph. p. 316.
2. Tripartit. Hist. 1. 6. c. 44.
3. Shemoth Rabba, sect. 13. fol. 99. 2.
4. T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 50. 2.
5. T. Bab. Sabbat. fol. 104. 2. Chagiga, fol. 4. 2. Sanhedrim, fol. 67. 1.
6. Vid. Juchasin, fol. 61. & 62.
7. Euseb. Eccl. Hist. 1. 3. c. 11.
8. Misn. Sota, c. 5. sect. 1.
9. T. Bab. Sanhedrim, fol. 96. 1.
10. Ib.

Thanks for posting. Gill makes my point!

 

[WIP]

Not so
Lk 1:34 say no sex ever period!

No, it does not. It is a recap of the conversation between Mary and the Angel, Gabriel, before Jesus was born.

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
Luke 1:30-34 NKJV

"Do not" is in the present tense. This conversation happened before Jesus was born not on Mary's death bed.


Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:18 NKJV

"Before they came together" is clearly speaking about Mary and Joseph not yet having had sexual relations. The phrase, "before they came together, also indicates they did "come together" at some point in the future.


Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.
Matthew 1:24-25 NKJV

"Did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son" (Jesus) is clearly speaking about how they did have sexual relations after Jesus was born.

 

[Bible]

Thanks for posting. Gill makes my point!

Jesus was a the son of Joseph Jn 1:45
Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples.

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

 

[Bible]

No, it does not. It is a recap of the conversation between Mary and the Angel, Gabriel, before Jesus was born.

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
Luke 1:30-34 NKJV

"Do not" is in the present tense. This conversation happened before Jesus was born not on Mary's death bed.


Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:18 NKJV

"Before they came together" is clearly speaking about Mary and Joseph not yet having had sexual relations. The phrase, "before they came together, also indicates they did "come together" at some point in the future.


Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.
Matthew 1:24-25 NKJV

"Did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son" (Jesus) is clearly speaking about how they did have sexual relations after Jesus was born.

No Mathew is only pointing out that she was a Virgin at the birth of Jesus
Lk 1:34 is permanent unless you have another verse after luke that says the opposite

 

[GodsGrace]

From John Gill (who, btw is one of the foremost in Hebrew studies...language and culture). ...


Is not this the carpenter's son? Meaning Joseph, who was by trade a carpenter, and whose son Jesus was supposed to be; and who very probably was now dead, which may be the reason he is not mentioned by name. The Greek word here used, signifies any mechanic, or artificer. The Syriac expresses it by a word, which signifies both a carpenter and a blacksmith; and Munster's Hebrew Gospel renders it, בן נפחא, "the blacksmith's son". But the generally received notion of the ancient Christians is, that he was a carpenter, and that Jesus was brought up to the same business, which lay in making ploughs and yokes1. This also appears, from the answer the Christian schoolmaster at Antioch gave to Libanius the sophister; who being big with expectation of Julian the apostate's getting the victory, asked the schoolmaster, what he thought the carpenter's son was doing? To which, after a short pause, he replied; O sophister! the Creator of all things, whom thou callest the carpenter's son, is making a coffin for Julian; who accordingly died in a few days after2. The Jews make mention of one Abba Joseph, הבנאי, "the builder", or carpenter3; but whether the same, is not certain. What they here say, was no doubt by way of derision and contempt; and yet the same phrase is used by them of a person of great note and fame, for his wisdom and knowledge: thus speaking of a difficult point, they4 say,

"לית נגר ולא בר נגר.

"no carpenter", or smith, or a carpenter's son, can solve this: says R. Shesheth, I am neither a carpenter, nor a carpenter's son, and I can solve it.

The gloss upon it is,

"a wise man, the son of a wise man.

Is not his mother called Mary? Plain Mary, without any other title, or civil respect; a poor spinstress, that got her bread by her hand labour: the Jews say5, she was a plaiter of women's hair, and treat her with the utmost scorn,

And his brethren; not strictly so, but either the sons of Joseph by a former wife; or Mary's, or Joseph's brothers or sisters sons, and so cousins to Christ; it being usual with the Jews to call such, and even more distant relations, brethren:

James; the son of Alphaeus, or Cleophas, one of Christ's disciples,

Mt 10:3 called the Lord's brother, Ga 1:19 and the same that wrote the epistle that bears his name:

and Joses; or Joseph, as the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel read; and which two names are one and the same: hence, in Talmudic writings, we often read of R. Jose, who is the same with R. Joseph6: this Joses is, by Dr. Lightfoot, conjectured to be the same with Joseph, called Barsabas, who was put in nomination for apostleship, after the death of Judas, Ac 1:23.

And Simon; or Symeon, the son of Cleophas, who is said7 to succeed James, as bishop of Jerusalem, and to be Christ's cousin, being son of Cleophas, the brother of Joseph, the supposed father of Christ:

and Judas; the same that is called Lebbaeus, and Thaddaeus,

Mt 10:3 and the brother of James, Lu 6:16 and the same that wrote the epistle that goes by his name. The Jews ought not to have made these remarks, since many of their great doctors were of mean parentage; as R. Zachariah was a butcher's son8, and R. Jochanan a blacksmith's son9; hence that advice of R. Juda ben Bethira10,

"take heed that ye do not reproach the sons of the common people, for from them comes forth the law.


1. Justin Martyr. Dialog. cum Tryph. p. 316.
2. Tripartit. Hist. 1. 6. c. 44.
3. Shemoth Rabba, sect. 13. fol. 99. 2.
4. T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 50. 2.
5. T. Bab. Sabbat. fol. 104. 2. Chagiga, fol. 4. 2. Sanhedrim, fol. 67. 1.
6. Vid. Juchasin, fol. 61. & 62.
7. Euseb. Eccl. Hist. 1. 3. c. 11.
8. Misn. Sota, c. 5. sect. 1.
9. T. Bab. Sanhedrim, fol. 96. 1.
10. Ib.

John Gill has no more authority than any other theologian specializing in the Hebrew language and culture....
Commentaries are not very helpful in addressing conflict....

 

[Bible]

John Gill has no more authority than any other theologian specializing in the Hebrew language and culture....
Commentaries are not very helpful in addressing conflict....

Only the apostles have authority

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!


Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4

 

[GodsGrace]

Only the apostles have authority

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!


Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4

I can agree with all you've posted above except this:

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!

I understand that the CC believes that grace is distributed through the CC, through sacraments, and even through Mary.
God's grace is distributed freely to all who will accept it - and even to those that do not, actually...
and this has been happening from the beginning of time and not beginning with the CC.
How was grace distributed before?

Also, the CC mixes up justification and sanctification and I find this rather confusing...but I can say that our sanctification is personal and is
a working together with God. Only OUR personal behavior can satisfy God and cause our sanctification...

How do you believe the Mass can sanctify us?

Romans 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 tells us that we have been justified by faith.
Titus 3:7 tells us that we become heirs by justification through faith.

Nowhere do I see the word church....the institution.

 

[Bible]

I can agree with all you've posted above except this:

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!

I understand that the CC believes that grace is distributed through the CC, through sacraments, and even through Mary.
God's grace is distributed freely to all who will accept it - and even to those that do not, actually...
and this has been happening from the beginning of time and not beginning with the CC.
How was grace distributed before?

Also, the CC mixes up justification and sanctification and I find this rather confusing...but I can say that our sanctification is personal and is
a working together with God. Only OUR personal behavior can satisfy God and cause our sanctification...

How do you believe the Mass can sanctify us?

Romans 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 tells us that we have been justified by faith.
Titus 3:7 tells us that we become heirs by justification through faith.

Nowhere do I see the word church....the institution.

Faith is required of course
The sacrifice of Christ is the source of all graces Jn 1:16
All graces come to us thru Mary as Christ came thru mary

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

 

[crossnote]

John Gill has no more authority than any other theologian specializing in the Hebrew language and culture....
Commentaries are not very helpful in addressing conflict....

Oh I agree, commentaries tend to create conflict, but perhaps you ought to tell that to Walpole whom I was addressing, he likes to refer to the Early Church Fathers. Would you mind taking that complaint to him?

 

[Walpole]

Oh I agree, commentaries tend to create conflict, but perhaps you ought to tell that to Walpole whom I was addressing, he likes to refer to the Early Church Fathers. Would you mind taking that complaint to him?

You can reach out to me directly.

Did you even bother to read what you copy and pasted in your post? It supports exactly what I posted to you previously. Here is what you control-v pasted from John Gill...

"And his brethren; not strictly so, but either the sons of Joseph by a former wife; or Mary's, or Joseph's brothers or sisters sons, and so cousins to Christ; it being usual with the Jews to call such, and even more distant relations, brethren:

James; the son of Alphaeus, or Cleophas, one of Christ's disciples..." - John Gill (https://christianforums.net/threads/biblical-mary.87138/post-1629463)


Gill does not state these brothers of the Lord are uterine sibling's of Jesus. Your source torpedoed your own argument.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh I agree, commentaries tend to create conflict, but perhaps you ought to tell that to Walpole whom I was addressing, he likes to refer to the Early Church Fathers. Would you mind taking that complaint to him?

No, Crossnote, I can't take that complaint to Walpole.
First, this is an open thread --- we forget that at time.
Anyone can post anything to any member.
So, I made a comment to you as to how I think of commentaries.
What do they prove?
You post your guy, then I post my guy, then .....etc.

OTOH,,,they could come in handy for difficult scripture...
I'm just saying they're not very good for settling a debate.

As to the Early Church Fathers....I also like to read them to see what they taught.
Is this a commentary?
NO.

This is reading men who either learned from an Apostle, or the next generation up.
It's like talking to someone who knew John Kennedy, 55 years ago,,,
or reading some commentary about him by someone who never knew him.
Big difference.

The church has changed a lot since the beginning....
I think it's good to know what the ECF's knew and believed to be true.