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Biblical understanding

Reply to
Miamited it’s not biblical 230


The new covenant priesthood:

High priesthood:
acts 10:14
heb 5:1
heb 8:1
heb 8:3


Ministerial priesthood
Mk 3:14
Jn 15:16
acts 1:15-26
acts 14:23
Acts 16:4
1 cor 9:14
1 Tim 2:7
1 Tim 4:14
rom 15:16
James 5:14

Royal priesthood
1 pet 2:5-9

The new covenant was a reformation of the mosaic covenant so it has many similarities. Heb 9:10
 
While I agree that Peter and some of the other apostles had positions of authority, meaning they were elders, the Apostle Peter was no pope who presided over the other apostles in the Christian Congregation(church). Some say that what is said at Matthew 16:16-19 and John 21:15-17 that the apostle Peter was the first Pope.
The scriptures reveal later, on a number of occasions, that all the apostles argued about who was the greatest among them. (Matthew 20:20-27; Mark 9:33-35; Luke 22:24-26) If Jesus had already given Peter primacy, or superiority, could there have been any question as to who was the greatest among the apostles?
So at Matthew 16: 17, 18 I disagree that it says that the apostle Peter would be head of the Christian congregation. What I see from scripture is that it shows that rather than Peter having primacy, Jesus was to be the cornerstone of the congregation(Church). (1 Peter 2:4-8) Jesus is the chief cornerstone, in other words Jesus is the greater stone that the congregation(Church) is founded and built up on. Those who reject Jesus as being the greater stone the congregation is founded and built up on, then this greater rock, who is Jesus, has become to them a stumbling stone because they reject Jesus as the chief cornerstone or foundation cornerstone that the congregation(Church) is built up on.

Jesus told Peter at Matthew 16:19: “I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the heavens.” What did Jesus mean? His reference to “keys” indicated that Peter would open up knowledge and opportunities for distinct groups to enter the Messianic Kingdom. So on what occasions did Peter use these keys?

(1) Peter used the first key at Pentecost 33 C.E. when he urged Jews and Jewish proselytes to repent and be baptized. Some 3,000 did so and became prospective heirs of the Kingdom.(Acts 2:1-41).

(2) The second key was used not long after the martyrdom of Stephen. In this instance, Peter and John laid their hands on recently baptized Samaritans, after which these new converts received Holy Spirit.(Acts 8:14-17)

(3) Peter used the third key in 36 C.E. In that year, he extended the hope of the heavenly inheritance to uncircumcised Gentiles. This occurred when the apostle gave a witness to Cornelius, the first uncircumcised Gentile to become a Christian disciple.(Acts 10:1-48)
I don’t agree the keys are the jurisdictional authority to govern the kingdom by the prime minster see Isa 22/21-22
Matt 10:2 Peter is first
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

God chose Peter!

Father Isa 22:21-22
1 Tim 5:1

Does Christ gives the keys to Peter’s person or Peter’s confession?

Does Christ give the power to bind and loose to Peter’s person or to a confession?

Did the Father send Christ or a confession of Christ?

Jesus Christ is the rock of salvation!

Peter is the rock that the church is built on by Christ alone!

Christ sends Peter not his confession!

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter alone

Jn 21:17 Peter entrusted with the flock or church

Only Peter and His successors have
Jurisdictional authority from Christ to govern the church!

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as intermediary!

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the houser, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself! Matt 17:27

Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter

It’s Christ who does this

Why is the name of peter even mentioned?

Why does Christ change Peter’s name, God changing a persons name like Abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel always signifies a mission or ministry!

Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom? Isa 22:21-22

How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?


also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!
Jn 21:17 feed my sheep (apostles) feed my lambs (people)
 
Hi donadams

There is one church. I'm not sure the Scriptures or many of Paul's letters and Jesus' letters to the first fellowships give us an indication as to whether or not there will be any error among them.

Yes, in Spirit.

I've revised your 'truth' here. Don't really know where you found a reference to the Jesus' church in all of that.

I have been in agreement with that statement for many, many years.

It's not real clear, in your next post, the points you are trying to make. I read a lot of Scripture, but I'm not clear on the points that you're trying to make with all of them. I can tell you that I'm not particularly in agreement with all the power that you want to give to the 'church'. The 'church' is merely the people living upon the earth at any given moment that are born again believers in the only one who could make a way for our soon coming salvation. Because of that belief, their lives should align closely with how Jesus lived. However, we are all sinners and we won't be perfect in that until our bodies of death that enshroud our soul now, are remade clean and perfect.

God bless,
Ted

You don’t see a visible, physical authoritative hierarchical church in the New Testament?
Is Christ the only head of the church? Thanks
 
I doubt I said it was written in the NT.
I said, close to the time of the Apostles.


“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).


“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).


“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).


“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
This is only what imperfect human beings are saying, not what God is teaching us in scripture. Also these statements were made about 2nd and 3rd centuries. One thing I know is around the end of the 1st century a falling away of the truth began, so by the 2nd and 3rd centuries because of this falling away of the truth they're were probably teaching and practicing many things that were not done during the time of Jesus Christ and his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.
 
The only ones he appeared to were believers, his apostles and disciples.

1Co 15:4-5 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Should i believe this inspired by God verse, or believe what you just said?

So I disagree that Jesus will rule on earth

The whole Bible teaches that He will. Have you even read the entire Bible even once? i ask that, because if you did, then you would know that Jesus will indeed Rule on Earth.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10.. ... . 11. .. ...12 .. . . .. 13 .. .. 14 .. .. . .15 .. .. .16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. ''
For those who want to know what the Whole entire Chapter of Zechariah 14 is talking about watch this video:



instead I believe he along with the 144,000 will rule over the earth from that heavenly Messianic kingdom.

Jesus and us Saints in the Heavenly Messianic Kingdom out of the Holy City Jerusalem, will reign over the 144,000.

Consider the words of brother Isaiah.

Isa_61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed. 10. .. .. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. (When? When He is here ON EARTH reigning)

Isa_65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Read all of Isaiah Chapter 65: 17-25 is about the 144,000. Who we Saints reign over.
We Saints live in the Holy City Jerusalem, the 144,000 who are sealed prior to the Tribulation Period are protected through the entire ordeal, These are they that will repopulate the Earth, and we will reign over them, we will teach them how to fish, how to farm, how to hunt, how to build, everything.
 
You don’t see a visible, physical authoritative hierarchical church in the New Testament?
Is Christ the only head of the church? Thanks
Hi donadams

I see pastors and deacons listed as authoritative controls within the body of the 'church'. However, none of them are ever given any authority to change already established Scriptural doctrine. They are just there for control and disciplining authority over the body. In fact, while the RCC holds that Peter is their first leader, it's actually Paul who does more defining and explaining of terms in the Scriptures. God has allowed that Peter gets honorable mention a couple of times, but 75% of the new covenant writings are from Paul. God's proclaimed leader of the Gentiles. I mean Jesus actually told Paul that his life was going to be going around teaching the Gentiles about the things of God.

How do we know what is the Bible and what is not? Thanks
We follow what the earliest believers said it was to be. They were the ones closest to the Lord. Also, as was done in determining the canon, we want to know 'who' wrote any Scripture. I don't think you understand the purpose of the original canonization of the early writings. It was for the very purpose of keeping 'out' spurious and unnecessary writings.
Can you be saved without a priest?
Absolutely! As a matter of fact, pretty much every single person that is saved on the day of God's judgement will likely have done so without a priest. Only Jesus has the ability to 'save' anyone. He's the one who is writing down the names in his Book of Life. Priests have no power over who or who isn't going to be saved on the day of our Father's judgment. No it doesn't take some priest to put your name in the hat for God's soon coming salvation. You've been duped my friend.

God bless,
Ted
 
1Co 15:4-5 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Should i believe this inspired by God verse, or believe what you just said?



The whole Bible teaches that He will. Have you even read the entire Bible even once? i ask that, because if you did, then you would know that Jesus will indeed Rule on Earth.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10.. ... . 11. .. ...12 .. . . .. 13 .. .. 14 .. .. . .15 .. .. .16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. ''
For those who want to know what the Whole entire Chapter of Zechariah 14 is talking about watch this video:





Jesus and us Saints in the Heavenly Messianic Kingdom out of the Holy City Jerusalem, will reign over the 144,000.

Consider the words of brother Isaiah.

Isa_61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed. 10. .. .. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. (When? When He is here ON EARTH reigning)

Isa_65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Read all of Isaiah Chapter 65: 17-25 is about the 144,000. Who we Saints reign over.
We Saints live in the Holy City Jerusalem, the 144,000 who are sealed prior to the Tribulation Period are protected through the entire ordeal, These are they that will repopulate the Earth, and we will reign over them, we will teach them how to fish, how to farm, how to hunt, how to build, everything.
At 1 Corinthians 15:4, 5 Paul is talking about believers that saw Jesus, not unbelievers. Cephas is another name for Peter you know he was a believer. The 12 apostles which included Peter were believers. Then Paul said Jesus appeared to 500 brethren, that means because Paul calls these 500 brethren they were believers, not unbelievers. So yes DiscipleDave you should believe this scripture at 1 Corinthians 15:4, 5 that proves that all these that Jesus appeared to were believers, not unbelievers
 
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Divine & Apostolic Tradition:
1) Teaching authority of Jesus Christ in His original apostles.
2) The bishops receive the teaching authority of the apostles, with a triple office to teach, govern, and to sanctify or administer the sacraments instituted by Christ .
3) With the public revelation given to the church in the deposit of faith (Jude 1:3) the bishops have the duty to teach the truths revealed by Christ and condemn all errors, provide the authentic interpretation of scripture, govern the church and administer the sacraments.

Example of tradition: 1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you…

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men!
( Matt 28:19 Jn 1:16-17)
Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6)
Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9:4 eph 4:4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15)

Truth is revealed by God to His apostles in His church (Jude 1:3) then the church / apostles / bishops must propose these truths. (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 15:1-5)

Church / apostles are the means of transmission of the truths revealed by God in Christ. Matt 5:14 Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18 Matt 18:17 Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 acts 1:8 acts 8:31 Lk 1:4

Jn 14:6 refers to Christ and not us, we are not and cannot be the only arbiter of truth, nor can we through private judgment (spiritual pride) give meaning and interpret scripture or decide doctrine, let humble ourselves and obey Christ and His church and be taught. Lk 1:4 Matt 11:29

The prophet speaks for God, to believe the prophet is to believe God, to reject the prophet is to reject God who sent Him. Isa 53:1 who hath believed our report.


To believe the apostles is to believe Christ who sent them to teach and sanctify all men, Matt 28:19 to reject the apostles is to reject Christ.
To accept the church and her teaching is to accept Christ, to reject the church is to reject Christ who established the church.

The person of an apostle is endowed with power and authority, not only their writings.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

The divine & apostolic tradition opposes the erroneous opinions of men, mere human tradition, or sentiments found in the five Protestant sola’s.

Rebellion and Heresy is the fruit of pride.
Humility is truth, pride is error, and falsehood.
Faithfulness and obedience are the fruit of humility.

The truth will set you free, so false doctrine enslaves you in spiritual bondage and spiritual blindness
Jn 8:32

Blinding light of Christ vs erroneous opinions of the 16th century!
 
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

WHICH baptism is being referred to in this verse?

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water (Baptism 1) unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire (Baptism 2):

TWO (2) Different Baptisms mentioned here. There is even in Scripture a Third talking about the Baptism of the dead. So which one of these Baptism #1 or #2 is being referred to in Mark 16:16?

ph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

So then there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM that Saves a person. is it Baptism #1 done by water from the earth, or is it Baptism #2 done by Living Water that Jesus provides (Holy Ghost). Which one Saves us?

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized (#2) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Scriptures interprets Scriptures. Even as i have done above. Believe the Word of God NOT what humans teach.



If i told you the Truth, you would not believe it.

my video about If Water Baptism can Save You?
One baptism eph 4:5 is the Christian sacrament of baptism
Faith (correct faith)
Water
Grace
Spirit
Fire (love)
Thanks
 
A baby is born with the fallen nature of man.
But he has not sinned. He has not committed any personal sin and we are responsible only for our own sins.

We're responsible for our sins AFTER the age of reason.
That’s true but if an infant dies before the age of reason but with the sanctifying grace of baptism they cannot be condemned, but they cannot go to heaven either with original sin and being devoid of sanctifying grace of Jesus Christ
Acts 2:39 “this promise” ez36:25 is to you’re children
Infants are children
Lk 1:10 savior of all people
Infants are people
Jn 1:29 all sins
Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!
Nowhere does scripture say don’t baptize infants
ECF below thanks
 
Acts 1:8 witness of the fathers

HIPPOLYTUS​

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

ORIGEN​

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE​

“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 58:2 [A.D. 253]).
“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another” (ibid., 58:5).

GREGORY OF NAZIANZUS​

“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).
“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM​

“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

AUGUSTINE​

“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
“Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born” (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).
“By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE V​

Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [North African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians” (Canon 7 [A.D. 401]).

COUNCIL OF MILEUM II​

“[W]hoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration . . . let him be anathema [excommunicated]. Since what the apostle [Paul] says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration” (Canon 3 [A.D. 416]).
 
How can we eliminate strife and confusion and come to a biblical understanding?

Scripture says be if “one mind one heart” Rom 12:16rom 15:16 2 cor 13:11 Phil 1:27

How can we lose the “us verses them” mentality and Hopefully help each other find biblical understanding!

Unity is found in Christ, the Holy Spirit, God the Father and in the Truth they have revealed to us in Scripture.

John 17:23 (NASB)
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Ephesians 4:1-6 (NASB)
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Colossians 3:12-14 (NASB)
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; (See: Romans 13:14)
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. (See: Romans 5:5; Galatians 5:22)

Romans 12:5 (NASB)
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Romans 15:5-6 (NASB)
5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The more biblical Christians are, and the more submitted to the control of the Holy Spirit they are, the more unified they'll be. The Spirit moves those whom he controls to obtain the "tools" necessary to properly understanding divine truth: proper interpretive hermeneutics, principles of good reasoning and an understanding of basic rules of logic, and the capacity to work through complex and sophisticated doctrines with patience and care. The Holy Spirit also imparts a hunger for God's truth to the submitted believer, an enthusiasm for study of God's word, and "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:10-16). As he guides believers into the life of Christ, filling them with himself, ordering their thinking and desires (Romans 8:14; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Galatians 5:25), occupying them more and more with the things of God, the believers in whom he is so working naturally migrate to one another, unifying with one another under his power, and leading, and life, not under denominations, or charismatic leaders, or doctrinal "hobby horses."

When one begins, not with the word of God and the power and illumination of the Holy Spirit, in unifying with fellow believers but insinuates an authoritative human agency into the mix (ie. The Roman Catholic Church/papacy), making it vital to Christian unity, the result will always be division - and/or a tenuous alliance of human factions that is ultimately oriented, not on Christ, but on human power and preferences. This is, essentially, what the religious Ecumenical Movement is.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NASB)
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
 
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That’s true but if an infant dies before the age of reason but with the sanctifying grace of baptism they cannot be condemned, but they cannot go to heaven either with original sin and being devoid of sanctifying grace of Jesus Christ
Acts 2:39 “this promise” ez36:25 is to you’re children
Infants are children
Lk 1:10 savior of all people
Infants are people
Jn 1:29 all sins
Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!
Nowhere does scripture say don’t baptize infants
ECF below thanks
There was no such thing as original sin the way Augustine described it in his writings in the 400's.
He was WRONG...and the CC has admitted so.
Not by saying he was wrong, but by acknowledging that babies do not go to limbo,,,there's no such place.
It's unfortunate that the CC did not teach the laity correct doctrine and just let them think limbo existed, even though it was never an official position of the CC.

I mean, where do you think they go?
Babies and children are innocent and Jesus said to send the children to Him.
Did He mean on earth but not in heaven??

CCC 1261
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.

Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
 
This is only what imperfect human beings are saying, not what God is teaching us in scripture. Also these statements were made about 2nd and 3rd centuries. One thing I know is around the end of the 1st century a falling away of the truth began, so by the 2nd and 3rd centuries because of this falling away of the truth they're were probably teaching and practicing many things that were not done during the time of Jesus Christ and his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.
I agree with you. I don't like to go too far into the future when it comes to the ECFs.
The 2nd century, however, may sound far away, but it was only in the 100's and information took a lot of time to get from one place to another back then. I'd say up to the 3rd century would be OK as far as I'm concerned and most theologians...some accept writings all the way to the 6th and 7th centuries...far too away from the time of Jesus for me.

As to the falling away of truth...
This started even while John the Apostle was still alive.
When he states that some left them because they were not of them he meant the gnostics.
He was very concerned with the gnostic movement and knew there would be heretics arising and trying to infiltrate Christianity. I'd say the church was very good in keeping heresies out of the early church. I also agree that some practices grew out of man's ideas, some which were correct (like the Trinity, hyperstatic union) and some that were not.

But I posted Irenaeus, for instance.
He was taught by Polycarp.
Polycarp was taught by John.

I didn't know about the ECFs until some years ago.
Many tell me they were not inspired and won't even familiarize themselves with these persons.
I've come to respect what they wrote - I don't think I've come across anything that was not biblical --
maybe they disagreed on something or other, but nothing of consequence.

Anyway, thanks for not writing them off completely, that was nice of you.
 
Hi donadams

I see pastors and deacons listed as authoritative controls within the body of the 'church'. However, none of them are ever given any authority to change already established Scriptural doctrine. They are just there for control and disciplining authority over the body. In fact, while the RCC holds that Peter is their first leader, it's actually Paul who does more defining and explaining of terms in the Scriptures. God has allowed that Peter gets honorable mention a couple of times, but 75% of the new covenant writings are from Paul. God's proclaimed leader of the Gentiles. I mean Jesus actually told Paul that his life was going to be going around teaching the Gentiles about the things of God.


We follow what the earliest believers said it was to be. They were the ones closest to the Lord. Also, as was done in determining the canon, we want to know 'who' wrote any Scripture. I don't think you understand the purpose of the original canonization of the early writings. It was for the very purpose of keeping 'out' spurious and unnecessary writings.

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, pretty much every single person that is saved on the day of God's judgement will likely have done so without a priest. Only Jesus has the ability to 'save' anyone. He's the one who is writing down the names in his Book of Life. Priests have no power over who or who isn't going to be saved on the day of our Father's judgment. No it doesn't take some priest to put your name in the hat for God's soon coming salvation. You've been duped my friend.

God bless,
Ted
Interestingly enough,
Jesus was:
A KING
A PROPHET
A PRIEST
 
Unity is found in Christ, the Holy Spirit, God the Father and in the Truth they have revealed to us in Scripture.

John 17:23 (NASB)
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Ephesians 4:1-6 (NASB)
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Colossians 3:12-14 (NASB)
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; (See: Romans 13:14)
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. (See: Romans 5:5; Galatians 5:22)

Romans 12:5 (NASB)
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Romans 15:5-6 (NASB)
5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The more biblical Christians are, and the more submitted to the control of the Holy Spirit they are, the more unified they'll be. The Spirit moves those whom he controls to obtain the "tools" necessary to properly understanding divine truth: proper interpretive hermeneutics, principles of good reasoning and an understanding of basic rules of logic, and the capacity to work through complex and sophisticated doctrines with patience and care. The Holy Spirit also imparts a hunger for God's truth to the submitted believer, an enthusiasm for study of God's word, and "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:10-16). As he guides believers into the life of Christ, filling them with himself, ordering their thinking and desires (Romans 8:14; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Galatians 5:25), occupying them more and more with the things of God, the believers in whom he is so working naturally migrate to one another, unifying with one another under his power, and leading, and life, not under denominations, or charismatic leaders, or doctrinal "hobby horses."

When one begins, not with the word of God and the power and illumination of the Holy Spirit, in unifying with fellow believers but insinuates an authoritative human agency into the mix (ie. The Roman Catholic Church/papacy), making it vital to Christian unity, the result will always be division - and/or a tenuous alliance of human factions that is ultimately oriented, not on Christ, but on human power and preferences. This is, essentially, what the religious Ecumenical Movement is.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NASB)
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
As I was reading your post, which I agree with BTW - as to how is coming up -
I thought of the CC before you even mentioned it,
and I thought of the reformed church.

I've been thinking of both a lot lately.
Being a Protestant for over 40 years now, I really disliked how the CC seemed to me to have man-made doctrine.
I've come to study it for about the past 10 years, maybe more, and the more I learn, the more I realize how it really is not different than what we believe.

OTOH, I find the reformed church to be different in every way.
And yet, we always mention the CC and not the reformed church, which is exactly what you did above.

This is what I agreed with totally:
The Spirit moves those whom he controls to obtain the "tools" necessary to properly understanding divine truth: proper interpretive hermeneutics, principles of good reasoning and an understanding of basic rules of logic, and the capacity to work through complex and sophisticated doctrines with patience and care. The Holy Spirit also imparts a hunger for God's truth to the submitted believer, an enthusiasm for study of God's word, and "the mind of Christ"

So a couple of questions:
1. What is the Ecumenical Movement?
2. Do you believe the CC is more heretical than the reformed church?
(If you're reformed, no need to answer no. 2!).
 
No.
The other member said we need a priest to be saved? Can't remember.

Jesus is a priest.
So it works out.
I'm sorry, but it would have worked out if Jesus wasn't a priest. The necessary quality for Jesus to provide us our way of salvation was merely his sinlessness and his willingness to take on death for us.

God bless,
Ted
 
I'm sorry, but it would have worked out if Jesus wasn't a priest. The necessary quality for Jesus to provide us our way of salvation was merely his sinlessness and his willingness to take on death for us.

God bless,
Ted
He also had to be divine, and a sinless man.
He was also the sacrifice and the offerer of that sacrifice. The priest, and the sacrifice.
 
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