[_ Old Earth _] Big Bang ?

[Rick W]

And again at the link I posted...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

It turns out that since electrons carry electric charge, their very presence disturbs the electromagnetic field around them, and so electrons spend some of their time as a combination of two disturbances, one in in the electron field and one in the electromagnetic field. The disturbance in the electron field is not an electron particle, and the disturbance in the photon field is not a photon particle. However, the combination of the two is just such as to be a nice ripple, with a well-defined energy and momentum, and with an electron’s mass.

Sound familiar?

"Quantum theory predicts that every particle spends some time as a combination of other particles in all possible ways. These predictions are very well understood and tested. "

 

[Rick W]

This doesn't have to be complicated. It's not rocket science. The word Quantum isn't magical. It's understandable for anyone who cares to learn a little.

 

[Rick W]

Question:
Is the number "2" real?
How many two's can you put in a quart container?

Quantum theory is full of such "ideas", "concepts". Things conceptual. Are they real? Yes to the mathematician and no in the world we deal with. I won't find two's laying around out in the woods or on the street. Yet we use them every day.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm basing it on the clear teachings of Scripture and using sound reasoning. Your statements do not address whether or not Christianity is a religion. As I have said, and will continue to say, Christianity is and always has been a religion.

I suggest that if anyone wants to discuss this further that we start a new thread and I can move these posts out of here.

Sorry Free but Jesus said it Himself, He did not come to establish a religion. For the scriptural answer we must learn the only rule in Hermeneutics that really matters. No scripture, group of scripture nor any collection of scriptures can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining on it/them.

Jesus is the God of both Testaments. (John 1:1-3) So it is that Jesus fellowshipped with Adam as He walked with him in the cool of the day in the second or third chapter of Genesis. There He fellowshipped with Adam as He did with the twelve He called and as He did with Paul when He instructed him, one on one in Asia Minor. (see Philippians) Jesus has never wanted for a religion, had that been what He wanted, the Pharisees, Scribes and the Sadducees were all very religious. They prayed out loud every time a lot of people could and would hear them.

Christianity is a relationship. I understand that many do not believe that I and a few others are indwelt with the Holy Spirit but you see, it's not that special. If/when a man or woman are saved, that feeling that is the greatest feeling they have ever known is the Holy Spirit indwelling the saved. It may but does not of necessity happen at the baptism and it happened some two weeks before mine.

Now, there is a command in the New Testament 5that we should never quench the Spirit. It is there for a reason and still folks choose to ignore it and do, to their detriment, quench the influence of the Spirit. This indwelling does not drive one to religion either, that is our need for works related salvation, not a reality, that does that and that is, indeed religion, it requires religion.

Just as Jesus fellowshipped with Adam, the disciples and with Paul, so He wants from every one of us and that has nothing to do with religion. People are often astonished if they knew me before my conversion, especially. I rode horses, carried pistols on my hip, played music in the roughest Red Neck Club in Houston, Texas and there are knowledge bump and scars all over my head from the fights. But before the time I could no longer stand without falling down, when I sing praise to God, I remember what He did for me and real tears, tears of worship, often pour out of my eyes and I am not ashamed. I am, beyond natural belief, thunderstruck that god loved me when I was running as hard as I could from Him.

The most Holy God has indwelt Bill Taylor, the one that called Motel Time for all those years, the Pool Shark, the thief, the liar, the druggie, the drunk Bill Taylor that could not crawl out of bed to go to work until he had a half pint. God, in the form of the Holy Spirit lives inside of me but other people can't see that. What they see is the old Bill Taylor that would toe to toe with any man cries when he worships. Christianity is not inside that Church. It can be because it is a twenty-four seven event. It is active relationship.

Okay, I'm off the stump.

 

[Barbarian]

There is no creation from nothing.

"Nothing" in the sense that it's merely space, the quantum vacuum. Of course, even that was created by God. But there's no question that they have an existence. But then waves occur when you pass a single photon through a two-slit apparatus, so our conception of anything at that level is only a dim apprehension of what is really going on.

 

[Allen Sherry]

some say yes and some say no big bang - what is the update on this - twinc

Yes, I believe in the Big Bang, but my Big Bang maybe a lot different than most of everyone's here. 2 Peter 3:10 says that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise. Sounds like a Big Bang to me, but that is the end of creation, not at the beginning.

But I believe that Big Bang Theory really contradicts the Scriptures. As we go down through the Days, it says that on Day 1, there was water. If the Big Bang was true, the Earth was a fiery hot mass. Day 4 says that the Sun came after the Earth. Big Bang says that the Sun came before the Earth. Day 3 says that vegetation came before the Sun. Big Bang says that it came after the Sun. If we compare to the orders of events, I believe that the Big Bang is almost opposite as can be to the literal account in Genesis.

But I believe that the worst thing that the Big Bang teaches is that suffering, diseases, destruction, and death came before sin, which the Bible teaches against. Everything was made by Day 6. God says everything was very good. But how would a God call His creation "very good" if we have all these terrible things? It wouldn't make any sense.

But Adam and Eve fell, and thus brought the death, suffering, and destruction to this once perfect world. And soon, God says that He will restore it again as it once was.

 

[Ricko]

...But I believe that Big Bang Theory really contradicts the Scriptures. As we go down through the Days, it says that on Day 1, there was water. If the Big Bang was true, the Earth was a fiery hot mass. Day 4 says that the Sun came after the Earth. Big Bang says that the Sun came before the Earth. Day 3 says that vegetation came before the Sun. Big Bang says that it came after the Sun. If we compare to the orders of events, I believe that the Big Bang is almost opposite as can be to the literal account in Genesis.

My understanding is that God created the heavens and the earth in verse 1. Is the sun part of the heavens? It was created in verse one. When God said let there be light, he moved the sun into position to give light to the earth.

 

[Free]

Sorry Free but Jesus said it Himself, He did not come to establish a religion.

Chapter and verse please.

For the scriptural answer we must learn the only rule in Hermeneutics that really matters. No scripture, group of scripture nor any collection of scriptures can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining on it/them.

So why do you go against this hermeneutic?

Christianity is a relationship.

That is just one of the beliefs of the religion of Christianity. That in no way somehow replaces the idea that Christianity is a religion.

 

[Free]

Yes, I believe in the Big Bang, but my Big Bang maybe a lot different than most of everyone's here. 2 Peter 3:10 says that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise. Sounds like a Big Bang to me, but that is the end of creation, not at the beginning.

But I believe that Big Bang Theory really contradicts the Scriptures. As we go down through the Days, it says that on Day 1, there was water. If the Big Bang was true, the Earth was a fiery hot mass. Day 4 says that the Sun came after the Earth. Big Bang says that the Sun came before the Earth. Day 3 says that vegetation came before the Sun. Big Bang says that it came after the Sun. If we compare to the orders of events, I believe that the Big Bang is almost opposite as can be to the literal account in Genesis.

If we are to fit the Big Bang with Scripture, it would be in Gen 1:1 only. Everything else would be after the Big Bang.

But I believe that the worst thing that the Big Bang teaches is that suffering, diseases, destruction, and death came before sin, which the Bible teaches against. Everything was made by Day 6. God says everything was very good. But how would a God call His creation "very good" if we have all these terrible things? It wouldn't make any sense.

Those things have nothing to do with the Big Bang but there was death and suffering before and after God saw that everything was very good. What do you think all the carnivores ate?

 

[Free]

My understanding is that God created the heavens and the earth in verse 1. Is the sun part of the heavens? It was created in verse one. When God said let there be light, he moved the sun into position to give light to the earth.

More or less agree. I've heard it stated that in verses 14 to 18, day 4, that God was merely appointing the sun, moon, and stars to their tasks, having already been made in verse 1. This of course raises interesting questions about what verses 3 and 4 are stating. But this is all the more reason to be very careful when understanding the creation account(s) and assigning literal meanings or a literal chronology to everything.

 

[Edward]

Which means we are here, because the universe is set up for beings like us. Which is not a very strong argument, and supports evolutionary theory. And it's incompatible with YE creationism.



Earth's distance from the Sun when it's summer in the Northern Hemisphere is about a million miles farther from the Sun as when it's winter in the Northern Hemisphere. Looks like that one won't work.



Seems really unlikely, seeing at ammonia and methane are metabolized by bacteria. But show us the numbers. Water is found on places like TItan, which is much smaller, and Methane is also found on smaller moons.



Days were a lot shorter hundreds of millions of years ago. And no sign of terrible winds capable of destroying all life.



The tilt of the Earth has also varied over the ages. No noticable problems for living things.



We have had runaway ice ages. But the insolation from the Sun is just not great enough for albedo to force runaway greenhouse effects.



It's fluctuated a great deal in the past, and will again. Currently, it's weakening, but that could change.



It does matter, but not much chance of a runaway. The linear effect of more CO2 is less than you think. Enough to make things uncomfortable and even catastrophic for some places, but not enough to end human life.

But none of this has anything to do with evolution, which is God's creation.



Once you're willing to let God be God, you won't be upset by evolution any longer.

There seems to be a lot of opinion here, but nada lada is put forth as fact.

I have considered that God could have created the earth and stuff and then evolution did some things afterward, but I can't seem to prove anything of the sort.

Hey I have a question for you. If evolution is true...(and scripture), then, what's the deal about the dinosaurs dying off before man was created? If death didn't enter into the world until after mankind fell...that would create a paradox.

 

[Edward]

And that's why no one believes that there was nothing, as far as I know. Sounds like a straw man to me.

Straw man? (LOL). I don't see how. Ok, so how about you splain it to me? There was nothing (I think) and then there was a big bang and tada, the universe came into being. How could there be a big bang when there was nothing to start with?

 

[Free]

If evolution is true...(and scripture), then, what's the deal about the dinosaurs dying off before man was created? If death didn't enter into the world until after mankind fell...that would create a paradox.

First one would have to prove that animals didn't die before the Fall. Of course, doing so would be to go beyond Scripture since Scripture doesn't say. It is actually a paradox for YEC.

 

[Free]

Straw man? (LOL). I don't see how. Ok, so how about you splain it to me? There was nothing (I think) and then there was a big bang and tada, the universe came into being. How could there be a big bang when there was nothing to start with?

First one needs to look at what science generally states about conditions prior to the Big Bang. If they say there was something, even a singularity, then that is something and not nothing. So to make an argument based on nothing would be a straw man.

 

[Edward]

First one would have to prove that animals didn't die before the Fall. Of course, doing so would be to go beyond Scripture since Scripture doesn't say. It is actually a paradox for YEC.

Well that's What's being put for about evolution. That the earth and such is about 13-15 billion years old and that about 65 million years ago, the dinosaurs died off, and then mankind came after that. If this was so then there would have had to be death in the world before mankind fell in Eden. See what I mean?

 

[Edward]

First one needs to look at what science generally states about conditions prior to the Big Bang. If they say there was something, even a singularity, then that is something and not nothing. So to make an argument based on nothing would be a straw man.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. You seem to be a proponent of evolution, but offer nothing to attempt to explain how the big bang came about, but seem more interested in merely establishing that my argument is wrong or straw man or something...?

 

[Free]

Well that's What's being put for about evolution. That the earth and such is about 13-15 billion years old and that about 65 million years ago, the dinosaurs died off, and then mankind came after that. If this was so then there would have had to be death in the world before mankind fell in Eden. See what I mean?

I know what you're saying but I'm saying that the Bible says no different. That's the irony. YECers believe they are sticking to the Bible and so often state that we are to interpret the creation account literally, yet, the Bible doesn't say that there was no death in the animal kingdom prior to the Fall. It clearly states that death enters for mankind at the Fall but that says nothing of the animal kingdom. What did anteaters eat prior to the Fall? What about alligators, sharks, etc.?

 

[Free]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. You seem to be a proponent of evolution, but offer nothing to attempt to explain how the big bang came about, but seem more interested in merely establishing that my argument is wrong or straw man or something...?

I haven't stated anything regarding my position. Just trying to make sure that those arguing against science are beginning with the correct premises. Not that I know much about it all either.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Chapter and verse please.

Genesis 3:8

So why do you go against this hermeneutic?

I don't but where do you perceive me doing so?

That is just one of the beliefs of the religion of Christianity. That in no way somehow replaces the idea that Christianity is a religion.

My contention does not replace religion, obviously religion, in many forms is present in the world but that is not what God has ever desired from man. i.e. Jesus paid for us to remove the slavery we were trapped in with our sin debt. The case of Enoch is a good example, Enoch walked with God and he was no more. We are sure, all of us I pray, that God did not slit his throat and hide the body.

Now, Jesus did go to the Temple on Saturday but the disciples also broke the law by harvesting the fruit of the plants to eat as they walked through the field with Jesus. It is recorded that two of the disciples fell asleep, thrice, as Jesus prayed, He want company as He prayed to the Father and through out the four Gospels instances of Jesus being personal with folks is replete.

Just as Jesus was faithful to gather, so am I but not for religion. It could have been concluded that i attended Church religiously before I fell from the side of my Diesel but I have never been all that interested in religion. I have been seated in Pentecostal services, Episcopalian, and I regularly attend some Baptist Church since I was converted to believe.

 

[Ricko]

Something happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create the earth in vain, he created it to be inhabited. Genesis 1:2 says the earth was formless and void. Would God have created the earth without form and void? Then in Genesis 1:28 God tells man to replenish the earth telling me something was here before.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.