birth control...is it Biblical?

[aj830]

Yes, but if you look at the motive...It was never about children, but it came down to Rape....It came down to crimes against the Person. These crimes included murder, abortion, rape, and kidnapping. Each carried the death penalty...In this case God was the executioner...

But it was about children. The whole reason he spilled his seed was so not to have children for his brother. The verse does not imply that this was a "rape" situation.

 

[jgredline]

But it was about children. The whole reason he spilled his seed was so not to have children for his brother. The verse does not imply that this was a "rape" situation.

If it was not rape, then what would you call it?
He never had any intentions to get her pregnant.....

 

[aj830]

If it was not rape, then what would you call it?
He never had any intentions to get her pregnant.....

Rape is when someone is forced to have relations against their will. Onan was told by Judah to have relations with his brothers wife and it was his duty to do this. She was not being forced against her will she was perpetuating her husbands line and Onan failed to do this by spilling his seed. Rapists usually don't really care what happens after the act if the woman gets pregnant or not and it is always against their will.

 

[Heidi]

Onan wasn't being puished because of not wanting his sister-in-law's children. He was punished for not marrying his brother's widow no matter what excuse he gave for refusing to marry her. That was the law that he broke.

 

[aj830]

Onan wasn't being puished because of not wanting his sister-in-law's children. He was punished for not marrying his brother's widow no matter what excuse he gave for refusing to marry her. That was the law that he broke.

You did not read my post. Look at Deuteronomy 25:7-10. The punishment for not wanting to marry your brother's wife is not death, only public humiliation. Onan received death. Why? Because not only did he fail to do his duties as brother but because he also used birth control.

 

[lovely]

Hi Free,

I apologize for misunderstanding your post...probably reading and responding to too many at a time. I think that your situation would still be a challenge for those who do believe in allowing God to plan their families. I can see how you would want to protect a little one from problems with these drugs your wife must take. Perhaps God has chosen for you and your wife through this situation. I think that it is up to you to lead your family as you think God would have you do.

As far as calling it the righteous choice, I don't recall doing that...I will reread my post, but I certainly don't believe that people are righteous. I believe that only God is righteous. It is just my desire to follow Him as best I can in the grace He has given me. I am sure you feel the same way.

As far as being fruitful and multiplying, and how many children that may be...I have three children that God has given to me, but carrying my daughter nearly took my life. I can no longer have children, though I would love to, and it's my prayer that God will heal me. I am waiting to see if adoption is open to our family, but because I have recently been diagnosed with emphysema we may not be approved. So, I am content with what God has blessed our family with, and I trust His plan in my life.

I don't believe that Genesis is a general command, and I don't believe that the pattern in Scripture is anything but that children are a blessing. I see no verses that approve of limiting family size, or preventing children for those in marriage, or for believers...just as you see none that say, "Do not use birth control." I think children are a a heritage to Him, and I think Scripture points to having them.

It's not my intention to judge believers on these things. I have had personal experience with losing a child (two), and with carrying three, and early on in motherhood God changed my heart on this matter...it was nothing righteous in me, but examining the topic more helped. I am surprised at how many believers have not examined the topic, or have questioned the health care of planned parenthood...I didn't. It took an older woman challenging me to search the Word, and to look hard at the world's methods. To be honest, I only judge myself harshly in this area. I was on birth control for several years, but had a problem finding the right one (pill) for me...the one that had the least amount of side effects...I went off for a while because I was still a virgin and was simply just following my doctor's, and father's, recommendation to use it, if only for regulation of my cycle. Not long afterward, I was raped and became pregnant due to that incident. I wished that child dead from day one. Just when I decided I wanted my baby, when I was near the end of my fourth month, God took that baby. It was likely the pill at work in my system that caused the defects, and led to my first pregnancy being a miscarriage. So, I type this as one guilty of murdering the innocent...in action and in heart. Thankfully, God is forgiving....more so than we are of ourselves at times. It wasn't until my second son, second living child, was born, that God did a work in my heart on the matter. Now, my womb is closed, but I accept God's will in this, and I am so thankful for the three beautiful children that He has blessed me with...that I don't deserve. So, I have two with Christ, and three here still being raised as arrows for Him, by God's grace. I hope they are a heritage for the Lord.

Anyway, I did not have a heart of judgement in my post at all, and I apologize if I wrote anything to give it a tone. I do believe that God desires that we trust Him in these things, and I think that it's okay if I desire to follow Him in that. I want to please Him.
The Lord bless you.

I edited this to correct the number of children I have with Christ. I was thinking of my first miscarriage when writing, but to be more accurate the numbers should reflect a second miscarriage...I had it very early on in the pregnancy...after my first son.

 

[Heidi]

You did not read my post. Look at Deuteronomy 25:7-10. The punishment for not wanting to marry your brother's wife is not death, only public humiliation. Onan received death. Why? Because not only did he fail to do his duties as brother but because he also used birth control.

This passage is not about birth control. It's about deliberately not wanting to continue his brother's line. So it was a sin against his brother's family, not a sin of not wanting too many children. :roll: There is no place in the bible that says we cannot limit the number of children we have. No place. That's all again made up by the Catholics as is most of their doctrine. :roll:

 

[aj830]

I wished that child dead from day one. Just when I decided I wanted my baby, when I was near the end of my fourth month, God took that baby.

I am sorry for your loss Lovely. I had a sister die in a miscarriage. They are both with Christ now.

 

[aj830]

This passage is not about birth control. It's about deliberately not wanting to continue his brother's line. So it was a sin against his brother's family, not a sin of not wanting too many children. There is no place in the bible that says we cannot limit the number of children we have. No place. That's all again made up by the Catholics as is most of their doctrine.

Once again you have failed to read my post. Why was Onan killed when the punishment for his action was only that of public humiliation? Please answer the question.

And no this is not something just "made up" by Catholics. EVERY Christian denomination believed this as a sin up until the 1930's. The Protestant Reformer's absolutley CONDEMNED birth control.

 

[Heidi]

Once again you have failed to read my post. Why was Onan killed when the punishment for his action was only that of public humiliation? Please answer the question.

And no this is not something just "made up" by Catholics. EVERY Christian denomination believed this as a sin up until the 1930's. The Protestant Reformer's absolutley CONDEMNED birth control.

It is you who didn't read my post. Once again, Onan's sin was against his brother and his family, by not wanting any of his sister-in-law's children. So Onan wasn't punished because of a birth control method, he was punished for his rejection of his brother's family. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing I can do about that. :roll:

 

[aj830]

It is you who didn't read my post. Once again, Onan's sin was against his brother and his family, by not wanting any of his sister-in-law's children. So Onan wasn't punished because of a birth control method, he was punished for his rejection of his brother's family. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing I can do about that.

Then why did Onan receive death? Deuteronomy 25:7-10 clearly states the steps to follow and the punishment for someone who refuses to give his brother's wife children. Onan received none of these steps and God immeaditley took his life. So if, as you stated, Onan's only sin was against his brother by not giving him children then God gave him an unjust punishment. However, God gave his punishment for the act of spilling his seed.

 

[lovely]

I am sorry for your loss Lovely. I had a sister die in a miscarriage. They are both with Christ now.

Amen, aj, and thanks...I am sorry for your loss too. The Lord bless you.

 

[Guest]

aj - did Onan marry the brother's wife?

You stated that Deut 25:7-10 outlines the punishment for someone who doesn't marry their brother's wife. This I agree.

Onan did marry his brother's wife. What Onan failed to do was to fulfill the oblijation. Once he took her as wife, Onan was to have relations to produce offspring.

Onan was too prideful, jealous, and selfish. and would not produce offspring, because they would not be counted as his.

So - his sin was being selfish and disobeying the commandments of God.

However, as you continued your discussion, your arguement changed. You later posted that Deut. 25:7-10 outlines the punishment for somone who refuses to give his brother's wife children. So, does Deut outline the steps of punishment for "refusing to give children or someone who doesn't marry their brother's wife"?

 

[cyberjosh]

aj - did Onan marry the brother's wife?

You stated that Deut 25:7-10 outlines the punishment for someone who doesn't marry their brother's wife. This I agree.

Onan did marry his brother's wife. What Onan failed to do was to fulfill the oblijation. Once he took her as wife, Onan was to have relations to produce offspring.

I believe that masturbation and all varients thereof are wrong however I do agree that that is the proper context in which to interpret what Onan did.

~Josh

 

[Guest]

I believe that masturbation and all varients thereof are wrong however I do agree that that is the proper context in which to interpret what Onan did.

~Josh

Masturbation is not a form of birth control - which is the topic of the OP. Masturbation is giving in to the sinful temptation of lust and seeking self-sulfillment for lustful thoughts.

 

[Heidi]

I believe that masturbation and all varients thereof are wrong however I do agree that that is the proper context in which to interpret what Onan did.

~Josh

I agree with you that Onan used his sister-in-law only as a prop., which is another reason why he was punished. But marital sex was created also to express love for each other. In that case, it's not masturbation, but mutual affection. So the implication that marital sex was created only for propogating the species is nonsense. That's called legalism and ignores the heart of the law which the Pharisees and all Catholics do.

 

[Fnerb]

Fnerb,

I applaud you for even being open to the will of God by this searching. Most would just "do what I feel like doing - it's my own business".

You should abstain from sexual relationships until married. Otherwise, this is fornication, a sin. You don't need me to say that!

However, once married, God has built the woman in a particular way in which she is naturally sterile during 25 or so days of the month. The "Natural Family Planning" method is a manner of utilizing God's design and avoiding the sex act during the times when the woman is fertile. This method works for those women with irregular periods, because it is based on the measuring of the temperature of the cervix, which is more accurate than calendars or other means. It does not disrupt God's choice to grant a baby to the couple by natural means. It is very accurate and effective. I would do a "google" on NFP and you will find more information. Many Protestants, as well as Catholics, have found that this allows them peace of mind in both the spiritual and material realm.

I also remember a statistic that went something like only 1% of Catholic couples who practice NFP got divorced, compared to the roughly 50% of the general Catholic population. I think it has something to do with more intimate communication involved in doing NFP. Also, those willing to do this are obviously more open to prayer and doing God's will over their own desire to do it the "easy way".

God bless and again, it is good to see people trying to do God's Will above their own.

Regards

Thanks Fran. I will do some reaserch on NFP.

The truth of the matter is, that we have both agreed that if God deems us ready (and worthy) of being parents, no ammount of birth control is going to stop that. And no matter the timing, it will truly be a great blessing!

I also have been doing some reading and realize we need to look at our motives for not "wanting" to have childeren right away. We both said we would like to enjoy being together (not just sexually) for a little while before having childeren. The first few years of marriage are a big enough adjustment and we feel as though having a child right away would put an even greater strain on that.

However, all of that is somewhat moot as we put Christ at the center of our marraige. Thus, everything will be to our good. :smt045

 

[cyberjosh]

But marital sex was created also to express love for each other. In that case, it's not masturbation, but mutual affection.

But its a waste of sperm if you don't do it for the purpose of multiplying. Although it isn't always fruitful the intent matters. And part of the reason masturbation is wrong (aside from straight up lust) is because it is a waste & because it goes against what is natural (God makes many condemnations based on the fact that wicked people have twisted what was natural - especially sexual things like homosexuality, etc.). I also think that the reason for the OT command not to lie with a woman during her impurity (PMS), aside from there being an issue of blood because of it, is because any union would be fruitless since at that point the egg cannot be fertilized.

In my opinion,

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

But its a waste of sperm if you don't do it for the purpose of multiplying. Although it isn't always fruitful the intent matters. And part of the reason masturbation is wrong (aside from straight up lust) is because it is a waste & because it goes against what is natural (God makes many condemnations based on the fact that wicked people have twisted what was natural - especially sexual things like homosexuality, etc.). I also think that the reason for the OT command not to lie with a woman during her impurity (PMS), aside from there being an issue of blood because of it, is because any union would be fruitless since at that point the egg cannot be fertilized.

In my opinion,

~Josh

Again, that's legalistic. It excludes sex as a means of expressing love. 1 Corinthians 7:4-7 doesn't say, "Do not deprive each other because you will have less children." : It says "Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

 

[golfjack]

reply

Does anyone see anything wrong with oral sex within marriage?



May God bless, Golfjack