Fastfredy0
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2 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation.
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Blessing of Election !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Butch5
Member
I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said. I'm not interpreting prophecy.
Since the gentiles are included, then all the blessings, adoption, election, salvation, and everything that goes along with it include them in the application of all of it. It doesn't matter that the Ephesian Christians weren't Christians yet when all those things happened. They were still predestined to adoption as sons. Every believer living today are born of God according to 1 John 5:1 and included in the kingdom of Christ, and were predestined to adoption as sons. To claim otherwise is nonsense.
No, what I explain is extracted from the text. You can accuse and label all you want, but the truth is the truth, and all will be revealed in the day of judgment. But now I'm thinking that you just want to argue about it, so I'm about to abandon the conversation, because Paul warned Timothy to steer clear of people who want to get into endless debates.
Consecrated Life
Member
What does " judging " have to do with being lied to ?
Its defended, you just cant receive it as truth, thats not my problem. All im doing is testifying to the truth. Its Gods business if He is pleased to lead you into it.
We were predestined to adoption as Sons, this is clear from scripture.
But some take this too far and learn from Calvin that God predestined everything.
Not sure what you believe, but Calvin, and the early reformers, taught something that was not accepted in the early church....which was the church closest to the teachings of Jesus. Interesting that none of them read this idea in scripture until Augustine,,,400 years after Jesus died and whose idea was not accepted.
You're funny.
Other's beliefs come from their own interpretation...
However, what You believe is the most personal interpretation Of All,,,taught 1,500 years After the death of Christ.
Rejected by the early church and rejected today by the largest denominations.
And, yes, this is important ,,,, the vast majority of theologians are most probably right ad compared to the handful.
Could you please post where scripture states that God leads us into salvation totally of His own volition and with no response from us as to whether or not we wish to be saved...
Which verses lead you to believe this as truth?
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:3-5
He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him in love.
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
What happens to those who were chosen before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame, who don’t comply with becoming holy and without blame?
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14
The point of discussion is not whether or not people are predestined or chosen be adopted as sons, but whether or not a person who is chosen and adopted will fulfill the requirements God has given for remaining in His kingdom.
The Calvinist Theology seems to teach that you can act like Lucifer and still remain in God’s kingdom.
JLB
- He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him in love.
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
What happens to those who were chosen before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame, who don’t comply with becoming holy and without blame?
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14
- without which no one will see the Lord:
The point of discussion is not whether or not people are predestined or chosen be adopted as sons, but whether or not a person who is chosen and adopted will fulfill the requirements God has given for remaining in His kingdom.
The Calvinist Theology seems to teach that you can act like Lucifer and still remain in God’s kingdom.
JLB
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Also, by the sovereignty of God, Calvin means that nothing happens without God so willing it and causing it to happen.
As to double predestination...
Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 21
Pargraph 5
By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals; Calvin on Predestination (Institutes) Page 4 he has also given a specimen of it in the whole posterity of Abraham, to make it plain that the future condition of each nation lives entirely at his disposal: "
The above is so far from the God we encounter in scripture.
The God that loves the whole world. John 3:16
The God that desires all men to be saved. Isaiah 45:22/ Luke 13:22-27/ 1 Timothy 2:4/ 2 Peter 3:9/
The God that wants all men/nations to know of Him. Matthew 28:18-19
The God that cried over those that would not come to Him. Luke 19:41-44
WHY would Jesus cry over those that would not come to Him...
If it is GOD that determined that they would not!??
How many verses need to be trampled to understand that there is something very wrong with Calvinist teachings?
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
How can one be an administrator and yet break the forum's rules that one is supposed to uphold ??????The Calvinist Theology seems to teach that you can act like Lucifer and still remain in God’s kingdom.
Rule 1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)
Butch5
Member
Yeah. One reason is the way people approach the Bible. Many simply don't reason properly. People proof text rather than reading the passages in context. I think one of the worst things to happen to the Scriptures was chapter and verse numbers. This allows people to grab passages of Scripture without ever reading the surrounding text. How many Christians can quote John 3:16 verbatim? That number is probably pretty high. How many can quote John 3:15 or 3:17? That number is probably pretty low. That's a big problem.
Another problem is that many don't seem to have a problem telling the apostles they're wrong. Paul said, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. Many Christians say, sorry Paul you're wrong, there's one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. John said, for God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son so that those who believe would not perish. Many Christians say, no John, you're wrong, they don't perish the burn forever. David, who Peter said was a prophet, said the wicked shall be destroyed, many Chridtians say, no David, you're wrong, they don't perish, they burn forever. Jeremiah said that Gehenna would one day, once again, be made Holy to the Lord. Many Christians say, no Jeremiah, you're wrong, Gehenna burns forever.
Instead of seeing the contradictions in their beliefs and rooting them out, they simply pick one aide and try to manipulate the Scriptures to fit what they've chosen to believe. I used to be a Calvinst and I held to the doctrines of Reformed theology. That's what I was taught. Then one day I bought an ipod. I put the Bible on it and began to listen. I listened particularly to the NT. As I listened I found more and more passages that didn't work with Reformed theology. As I questioned several Reformed pastors, we had four, they couldnt answer why these passages didn't agree with the theology. They'd say things like, "it's a mystery" or "some things are hard to understand". Ok, I can buy that a time or two. But now when we're getting to 20 or 30 questions that these guys can't answer something is wrong. Unlike them I couldnt just sweep these things under the rug. So, I set out to find twhat the Scriptures really teach
Which denomination would that be??
We're discussing Calvin and his teachings.
Did Calvin start a denomination or a movement?
Butch5
Member
No, they weren't. This isn't hard. Paul said that the Gentiles were without God and Christ, aliens of Israel, and outside of the covenants. One can't be a covenant person of God if they are outside of that covenant. Israel was predestined to adoption, not Gentiles. Paul said in Romans 9 that the adoption pertains to Israel. How many times does he have to say it? I realize that Reformed theology falls apart if this passage doesn't include the Gentiles. However, it's better to understand Scripture correctly than to hold the theology of men.
Butch5
Member
That's a typical bail. But, it's not me that is simply arguing for the sake of arguing. I have presented you with numerous evidences showing how verses 3-12 apply to Israel. I've asked you repeatedly to show where those things were promised to the Gentiles. You gave nothing. I showed you where Paul states explicitly that the "you" group is the Gentiles. I've shown how the Gentiles were included at a later date. You've given no evidence to support what you've said other than your opinion.
Butch5
Member
But, you're not testifying to the truth, that's the point. Look at your 5 points of Calvinism and see if you can show us a single passage of Scripture that supports any one of them. Can you show any Scripture that says man is totally depraved? Can you show any that says man is unconditionally elected to salvation? Can you show any that say Christ's atonement iAugs limited to only certain people? Can you show any Scripture that says God's grace is irresistible? Actually, Scripture speaks of people who resisted God's grace. Can you show anything from Scripture that states that the saints will absolutely persevere?
You won't find Scripture for these, how then can this be the Biblical truth? The sad part is that the early church actually argued against many of the points of Calvinism and called them heretical. The Gnostics held many of these positions and the early church argued vehemently against them. How can these points be Biblical truth if the first Christians argued so vehemently against them?
Calvinism has it's roots in Augustinianism. Augustine was a Gnostic before becoming a Christian. He had a Gnostic world view when he read the Scriptures. That tainted his understanding and it can be seen in his writings. Augustine changed quite bit from the original faith. Augustine's "Just War" theory is responsible for millions of Christians going to war in opposition to the Scriptures. The earliest Christian would not go to war for any reason. Augustine changed that. Augustine was also a Fatalist. He believed all things were fated. So, when he became a Christian he simply changed the source of things being fated from fate to God. He didn't change his doctrine to match what the church had taught from the very beginning. He tried instituting several of his non Biblical ideas, however, those higher up in the church prevented him from doing so. Fast forward 1200 years and we have the Reformation. Luther was an Augustinian monk and Calvin was a Stoic, they also held to Fatalism. Calvin was also familiar with Augustine's works. So, we can see how, where, and when, these ideas entered the church. Prior to the Reformation any attempts to institute these teachings of Augustine were thwarted. However, with the Reformation and no one in charge, Luther and Calvin were free to make up their own doctrines, and that they did.
Here's a quote from a very early Christian writer Justin Martyr. He wrote this around 160 AD shortly after the apostle John.
And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Notice his statement, "him who chooses to be born again". That was the teaching of the entire early church. People chose whether or not to be born again.
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You kept asking how do we know who is pretending. I answered the same answer that Jesus gave, "by their fruit." But then you want to try to judge another person, if they appear to be edified, that they are pretending to be edified, but that is judging the kind of judgment that Jesus said not to do. This is why I asked who are you to judge.
We know pretenders by how they treat other people. Do they love the unlovely, or are they prejudiced? Are they generous to the needy, or do they walk around them? etc. Jesus said to judge righteously, and that's how to do it, to observe their behaviors. (Of course, there will be mature and immature Christians, so our judgments have to be careful).
But someone pretending to be edified, how do you know? You're trying to judge a person's spirit, motives, intentions, etc., but only God is the one who sees the heart. If you judge a person because you think you see what you can't see, that's an unrighteous judgment. The only way to know you're being lied to is if the actions don't measure up to the words. IOW, the person lacks integrity.
Your response makes me wonder if you wrongly judge Calvin and the reformers because of what you've been told or what some people in the forum say. I'm certainly no expert on Calvin, but I tend to believe the statement by a historian that if there was no Calvin, there would be no U.S.A. (our nation would be entirely different, perhaps even still under British rule). But that aside, I've read some of the major reformed confessions like the Westminster and the 1689 London Baptist, and there is very little in it that I think is not solidly biblical. I don't follow them, but I compare them with scripture, and agree where I see they agree with scripture.
But the providence of God, which is a term for God's work among people described by Paul in Rom. 8:28, was a well-established idea in Judaism long before NT times. It is mentioned in many verses of OT scripture, and some unbelieving Jews who conversed with Jesus understood it, shown by their question "what must we do to work the works of God."
So if God causes all things to work together, according to Rom. 8:28, then He must be sovereign and in complete control of all things, even the devil who needs God's permission to do anything. Even when "the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 Jn. 5:19, ESV), God is ultimately in control, and either lets people do what they want, or sways their choices when it suits His purpose (Prov. 16:9).
It's your theology that's wrong. The gentiles are included when they become believers. Again, you are confusing the covenants. It appears to me you don't know what you're talking about, and just want to argue, so don't expect any more response from me on this issue.