Blessing of Election !

[Butch5]

Yes I did show how it was nonsense. In v. 13-14, Paul states that the Ephesian church was sealed with the Holy Spirit, and then said "who is a guarantee of OUR inheritance" - so Paul is including the Ephesians with the Jews in the inheritance and adoption. And in Ch. 2 he clarifies that fact.

So if you missed that, then you're just not reading it.

In verses 13 and 14 Paul tells the Gentiles they've been included. However, he also says, 'after you believed'. They were included after they believed. Not before they believed, after. Those things in verses 3-12 that are past tense happened before the Gentiles believed. Therefore they couldn't have been included. Those things happened before Christ brought the Gospel. As Paul says in chapter 2, the Gentiels were, without God and Christ, they were aliens from Israel, and they were outside of the covenants of promise. So, Paul states plainly that the Gentiles did not have any of those things in verses 3-12 before the Gospel came. Thus, they are not being spoken of in those verses.

 

[Butch5]

Sounds like you both know what PREDESTINED means

Predestination – God’s plan and purpose for those He “elects” or does not “elect” (reprobation); both angels and man. The degree of limitation of the term differs with the theologians. Predestination may be applied to the purposes of God regarding all his moral creatures, both men and angels. Sometimes it is restricted to man, and includes both election and reprobation. Or it may be used in the most restrictive sense of applying only to the elect, and not referring to the reprobate. The Westminster Standards use it to refer to just the elect of both men and angels.

That's a man made doctrine. Predestination in the Bible had nothing to do with that. It has to do with God fulfilling His promise to Abraham.

 

[Fastfredy0]

That's a man made doctrine. Predestination in the Bible had nothing to do with that. It has to do with God fulfilling His promise to Abraham.

Can you find ANY theological dictionary that agrees with your statement that predestination has to do with God
fulfilling His promises to Abraham? Aside: You've now given two definitions of predestination:
1) It has to do with God fulfilling His promise to Abraham. (too obtuse to be of constructive use IMO)
2) predestined simply means predetermined. (now this is close)

Predestination
This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28 ; Romans 8:29 Romans 8:30 ; 1 Corinthians 2:7 ; Ephesians 1:5 Ephesians 1:11 ; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events. https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/eastons-bible-dictionary/predestination.html

 

[Butch5]

Can you find ANY theological dictionary that agrees with your statement that predestination has to do with God
fulfilling His promises to Abraham? Aside: You've now given two definitions of predestination:
1) It has to do with God fulfilling His promise to Abraham. (too obtuse to be of constructive use IMO)
2) predestined simply means predetermined. (now this is close)

Predestination
This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28 ; Romans 8:29 Romans 8:30 ; 1 Corinthians 2:7 ; Ephesians 1:5 Ephesians 1:11 ; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events. https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/eastons-bible-dictionary/predestination.html

Why do I need a theological dictionary when I have the Scriptures?

Can you show a single passage of Scripture that says people are predestined to be saved or lost? There's not one. How can that be a Biblical doctrine when there isn't a single passage of Scripture that says it?

 

[Butch5]

Fastfredy0

Here's the Predestination of Israel

Now the LORD had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

 

[Fastfredy0]

Why do I need a theological dictionary when I have the Scriptures?

For the same reason you need someone to translate the Greek and Hebrew into English ... so one can speak with a common understanding of term ... otherwise, the conversation has little meaning as it lacks a common understanding.
Aside: the Bible is NOT A DICTIONARY.

Can you show a single passage of Scripture that says people are predestined to be saved or lost? There's not one.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers. AMP

Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined [before the creation of the world] to occur [and so without knowing it, they served Your own purpose]. (Granted, this is not salvation ... God predestines everything ... that's how He knows the future because He predetermines it).

I am wasting my time as we don't even agree on the meaning of words *giggles to himself*

 

[Fastfredy0]

Here's the Predestination of Israel

Now the LORD had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

agreed, this is an example of predestination. What point are you trying to make????

Again, your definition of predestination is not forthcoming... so discussion is futile.
Aside: Two can not walk together unless they are agreed .... in other words, we can't discuss predestination if we don't agree to what the word means.

 

[GodsGrace]

For the same reason you need someone to translate the Greek and Hebrew into English ... so one can speak with a common understanding of term ... otherwise, the conversation has little meaning as it lacks a common understanding.
Aside: the Bible is NOT A DICTIONARY.


Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers. AMP

Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined [before the creation of the world] to occur [and so without knowing it, they served Your own purpose]. (Granted, this is not salvation ... God predestines everything ... that's how He knows the future because He predetermines it).

I am wasting my time as we don't even agree on the meaning of words *giggles to himself*

You sure do have a problem with understanding words everyone else has no problem with.
Your intelligence must be so far superior to anyone else on this forum.
It's no wonder you can't speak to anyone because they just don't know what words mean.
But you have your trusty dictionary.
Giggles to herself.

Go read what was predestined in
Romans 8:29

 

[Butch5]

agreed, this is an example of predestination. What point are you trying to make????

Again, your definition of predestination is not forthcoming... so discussion is futile.
Aside: Two can not walk together unless they are agreed .... in other words, we can't discuss predestination if we don't agree to what the word means.

I gave my definition. It means to predetermine something. In the past tense it means something was predetermined

 

[GodsGrace]

I gave my definition. It means to predetermine something. In the past tense it means something was predetermined

He's not going to understand the meaning no matter how you explain it because it cuts out the conversation which cannot be sustained on his part....

Ask him what is predestined in Romans 8:29....
Ooops,,,can't be done,,,we can't agree on what predestined means!

Easy out.
Ditto for FREE WILL and other key words which cause discomfort.

 

[Butch5]

For the same reason you need someone to translate the Greek and Hebrew into English ... so one can speak with a common understanding of term ... otherwise, the conversation has little meaning as it lacks a common understanding.
Aside: the Bible is NOT A DICTIONARY.


Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers. AMP

Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined [before the creation of the world] to occur [and so without knowing it, they served Your own purpose]. (Granted, this is not salvation ... God predestines everything ... that's how He knows the future because He predetermines it).

I am wasting my time as we don't even agree on the meaning of words *giggles to himself*

We won't find, in the dictionary definition of predestine, that it refers to the fulfilling of the promises to Abraham, because that goes to purpose, not definition. The definition of the word means to predetermine. Applying it to doctrine goes to purpose not definition. When you give a definition that says it's Gods choosing of who will be saved, that's a definition of the doctrine, not the word. I reject the Reforned doctrine of Predestination so that meaning is of no use to me. I simply want the definition of the word.

 

[Butch5]

He's not going to understand the meaning no matter how you explain it because it cuts out the conversation which cannot be sustained on his part....

Ask him what is predestined in Romans 8:29....
Ooops,,,can't be done,,,we can't agree on what predestined means!

Easy out.
Ditto for FREE WILL and other key words which cause discomfort.

I think we can if we clarify between the definition of the doctrine and the word

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we can if we clarify between the definition of the doctrine and the word

I applaud your effort.
He won't even speak to me.
What is predestined is always purpose, as you've stated.
The bible makes it clear that God would like all to be saved and that we have the free will to accept or deny His offer of salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we can if we clarify between the definition of the doctrine and the word

Let me add this:
To predestine means to CAUSE everything to happen. Including murder, disease, tragedies, natural disasters, etc.

We might discuss whether God CAUSES evil or if He ALLOWS evil. For whatever reason which we can't understand.

Does Jesus teach us about God or not?
Did Jesus cause evil, or hate it?

 

[Butch5]

I applaud your effort.
He won't even speak to me.
What is predestined is always purpose, as you've stated.
The bible makes it clear that God would like all to be saved and that we have the free will to accept or deny His offer of salvation.

It does. What I find to be a problem is that Christians are taught to proof text they're told what the Bible says and given certain passages that are supposed to prove it. The problem is that they're given a false set of presuppositions through which they then try to interpret that text. Then what happens is they find passages that don't fit their beliefs. But, instead if changing their beliefs, too often they try to change the text. That we have so many denominations should show that average Christian that a lot of Christians have a lot of their theology wrong.

 

[Butch5]

Let me add this:
To predestine means to CAUSE everything to happen. Including murder, disease, tragedies, natural disasters, etc.

We might discuss whether God CAUSES evil or if He ALLOWS evil. For whatever reason which we can't understand.

Does Jesus teach us about God or not?
Did Jesus cause evil, or hate it?

I don't think it means to cause everything to happen. I think it means to cause that which one predetermined to happen. God predetermined or predestined to make a great nation from Abraham. Israel is that nation. He said it and then He did it

 

[GodsGrace]

It does. What I find to be a problem is that Christians are taught to proof text they're told what the Bible says and given certain passages that are supposed to prove it. The problem is that they're given a false set of presuppositions through which they then try to interpret that text. Then what happens is they find passages that don't fit their beliefs. But, instead if changing their beliefs, too often they try to change the text. That we have so many denominations should show that average Christian that a lot of Christians have a lot of their theology wrong.

Amen to that.
Follow the truth - wherever it takes you.
Some of us, including you, have done that, also myself..it led me out of a denomination.

Plus, yes, the NT is a complete and comprehensive message,,,not a bunch of bits.

Must say good night.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think it means to cause everything to happen. I think it means to cause that which one predetermined to happen. God predetermined or predestined to make a great nation from Abraham. Israel is that nation. He said it and then He did it

Agreed.
But Calvin taught that God causes all to happen, not just what He intended for mankind.

 

[Butch5]

Agreed.
But Calvin taught that God causes all to happen, not just what He intended for mankind.

Yeah. He at least acknowledged where his doctrine went with double Predestination.

 

[Butch5]

Amen to that.
Follow the truth - wherever it takes you.
Some of us, including you, have done that, also myself..it led me out of a denomination.

Plus, yes, the NT is a complete and comprehensive message,,,not a bunch of bits.

Must say good night.

Agreed. I also left the denominations. Too much error. I let the Bible lead me where it wills. I've given up many doctrines over the years because they didn't align with Scripture.