Book of Revelation conflicts...amillenial,pre...

[justvisiting]

I can only say if you find the following posts confusing, that God is not confused and it really doesn't make any difference which way we believe... God knows how it all happens... and will do according to His own plan.
This is what I thought happens at the end of the tribulation when the Lord returns.
John 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Acts 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15  And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

I always considered it over, and that we reigned with the Lord at the end of the tribulation...when He returns.
1 Thessalonians 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Just was looking for some info on who might know informed scholars on Revelation.
There are some problems, however, with the 1000 year reign etc. Believe me. This is not a simple question. There are some heavy duty scholars out there that would like to throw Revelations out.
Anyway, all I'm interested in are the different views and good scriptural backup.
millennialists, premillennialist, postmillennialist, and amillennialist.
By the way...what do the Baptists believe...seeing as how this is mostly their website...Bible College influenced???
All quotes for my following posts on the various forms of millenialism come from Wikipedia.

 

[justvisiting]

This is Amillenialism:
Teaching
Amillennialism teaches that the Kingdom of God will not be physically established on earth throughout the "millennium", but rather that Jesus is presently reigning from heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father, that Jesus also is and will remain with the church until the end of the world, as he promised at the Ascension, that at Pentecost, the millennium began, as is shown by Peter using the prophecies of Joel, about the coming of the kingdom, to explain what was happening, and that, therefore the church and its spread of the good news is Christ's kingdom.
Amillennialists cite scripture references to the kingdom not being a physical realm: Matthew 12:28, where Jesus cites his driving out of demons as evidence that the kingdom of God had come upon them; Luke 17:20-21, where Jesus warns that the coming of the kingdom of God can not be observed, and that it is among them; and Romans 14:17, where Paul speaks of the kingdom of God being in terms of the Christians' actions.

In particular, they regard the thousand year period as a figurative expression of Christ's reign being perfectly completed, as the "thousand hills" referred to in Psalm 50:10, the hills on which God owns the cattle, are all hills, and the "thousand generations" in 1 Chronicles 16:15, the generations for which God will be faithful, refer to all generations. (Some postmillennialists and nearly all premillennialists hold that the word millennium should be taken to refer to a literal thousand-year period.)

Amillennialism also teaches that the binding of Satan described in Revelation has already occurred; he has been prevented from "deceiving the nations" by preventing the spread of the gospel. This is the only binding he will suffer in history: the forces of Satan will not be gradually pushed back by the Kingdom of God as history progresses but will remain just as active as always up until the second coming of Christ, and therefore good and evil will remain mixed in strength throughout history and even in the church, according to the amillennial understanding of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares.

Amillennialism is sometimes associated with Idealism as both teach a symbolic interpretation of many of the prophecies of the Bible and especially the Book of Revelation. However, many amillennialists do believe in the literal fulfillment of Biblical prophecies; they simply disagree with Millennialists about how or when these prophecies will be fulfilled.

 

[justvisiting]

This is Premillenialism:
Premillennialism in Christian end-times theology is the belief that Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign, at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Christ’s physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium. It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal. Premillennialism is largely based upon a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 in the New Testament which describes Christ’s coming to the earth and subsequent reign at the end of an apocalyptic period of tribulation. It views this future age as a time of fulfillment for the prophetic hope of God’s people as given in the Old Testament.
On a guess? This is where the Baptist's sit??

 

[justvisiting]

This is Post Millenialism:
In Christian end-times theology, (eschatology), postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age or era of Christian prosperity and dominance. The term subsumes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism and, to a lesser extent, amillennialism (see Summary of Christian eschatological differences).

Although some postmillennialists hold to a literal millennium of 1,000 years, most postmillennialists see the thousand years more as a figurative term for a long period of time (similar in that respect to amillennialism). Among those holding to a non-literal "millennium" it is usually understood to have already begun, which implies a less obvious and less dramatic kind of millennium than that typically envisioned by premillennialists, as well as a more unexpected return of Christ.

Postmillennialism also teaches that the forces of Satan will gradually be defeated by the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout history up until the second coming of Christ. This belief that good will gradually triumph over evil has led proponents of postmillennialism to label themselves "optimillennialists" in contrast to "pessimillennial" premillennialists and amillennialists.

Many postmillennialists also adopt some form of preterism, which holds that many of the end times prophecies in the Bible have already been fulfilled.

Types of postmillennialism

Difference in extent
Postmillennialists diverge on the extent of the gospel's conquest. The majority of postmillennialists retain the notion of a final apostasy at the end of human history, presupposing the presence of a sufficient number of unsaved people on earth to mount the alleged rebellion. This postmillennial perspective essentially dovetails with the thinking of amillennial and premillennial schools of eschatology.

There are a minority of postmillennial scholars, however, who discount the idea of a final apostasy, regarding the gospel conquest ignited by the Great Commission to be total and absolute, such that no unsaved individuals will remain after the Spirit has been fully poured out on all flesh. This minority school, promoted by B. B. Warfield and supported by exegetical work of H.A.W. Meyer, has started to gain more ground, even altering the thinking of some postmillennialists previously in the majority camp, such as Loraine Boettner and R. J. Rushdoony.

The appeal of the minority position, apart from its obvious gambit of taking key scriptures literally (John 12:32; Romans 11:25-26; Hebrews 10:13; Isaiah 2:4; 9:7; etc.), was voiced by Boettner himself after his shift in position: the majority-form of postmillennialism lacks a capstone, which Warfield's version does not fail to provide. Warfield also linked his views to an unusual understanding of Matthew 5:18, premised on Meyer's exegesis of the same passage, which presupposed a global conquest of the gospel in order for the supposed prophecy in that verse to be realized, which inexorably leads to a literal fulfillment of the third petition of the Lord's Prayer: "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."

John Calvin's exposition of that part of the Lord's Prayer all but adopts the minority postmillennial position, but Calvin, and later Charles Spurgeon, were remarkably inconsistent on eschatological matters. Spurgeon delivered a sermon explicitly defending the form of absolute postmillennialism held by the minority camp today, but on other occasions he defended premillennialism. Moreover, given the nature of Warfield's views, Warfield disdained the millennial labels, preferring the term "eschatological universalism" for the brand of postmillennialism now associated with his thinking.

Warfield, like those who follow in his footsteps, did not seek to support his doctrine of cosmic eschatology from Revelation 20, treating that passage (following Kliefoth, Duesterdieck, and Milligan) as descriptive of the intermediate state and the contrast between church militant and triumphant. This tactic represented an abandonment of the Augustinian approach to the passage, ostensibly justified by a perceived advance in taking the Book of Revelation's parallel passages to the little season of Satan more seriously (cf. Revelation 6:11 and 12:12).


Difference in means

Comparison of Christian millennial interpretationsPostmillennialists also diverge on the means of the gospel's conquest. Revivalist postmillennialism is a form of the doctrine held by the Puritans and some today that teaches that the millennium will come about not from Christians changing society from the top down (that is, through its political and legal institutions) but from the bottom up at the grass roots level (that is, through changing people's hearts and minds).

Reconstructionist postmillennialism, on the other hand, sees that along with grass roots preaching of the Gospel and explicitly Christian education, Christians should also set about changing society's legal and political institutions in accordance with Biblical, and also sometimes Theonomic, ethics (see Dominion theology). The revivalists deny that the same legal and political rules which applied to theocratic state of Ancient Israel should apply directly to modern societies which are no longer directly ruled by Israel's prophets, priests, and kings. In the United States, the most prominent and organized forms of postmillennialism are based on Christian Reconstructionism and hold to a reconstructionist form of postmillennialism advanced by Gary North, Kenneth Gentry, and Greg Bahnsen.

 

[justvisiting]

So....... what's .... your view.?????
Sounds like I'm more premillenialist. Maybe not. I 've been reading some more and there are others that only believe in a resurrection of the just and unjust as a one-time event. The just rising to meet the Lord... and the unjust being given everlasting destruction. (otherwards immediate judgement). I am still confused with the dead living at the end of the 1000 years??? The Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation (yes) A millenial kingdom is set up (yes)
What's this about more dead being raised and satan being loosed??????
By the way it still has not been really determined that John the Apostle wrote Revelations. It could have been another John the elder. It's a bizarre book at the end... and if it is haywire? What better way to keep it intact than by saying... if you tamper with anything I've written... your name is going to be taken out of the book of life.???? Anyway, someone have some good answers?

 

[justvisiting]

This is Historic Premillenialism. If the chart shows up? I thought there was a judgement for both the good and the evil as soon as the Lord returned at the end of the tribulation?

 

[D4Christ]

Justvisiting,

I would consider the premillennial view to the be the most accurate. And although I can apppreciate the graph for its simplicity, I would have to tweak parts of it to more accurately reflect the great tribulation vs. the more inaccurate "tribulation" and I would also note the "Day of the Lord" among other things.

The dead are raised at the Great White Throne judgment because the 1st resurrection only inlcudes those alive and dead in Christ (scriptures indicate we are blessed to be a part it). The 2nd resurrection includes everyone else who died from the beginning of time and all those who lived and died since the 2nd resurrection took place. It is during the 2nd ressurrection that you have the possibility of being assigned to eternal life or eternal damnation...it all depends on the information contained in the books and whether your name shows up in the Book of Life. Those who made the 1st resurrection did so because their names are in the Book of Life....these are judged based on their works to determine what rewards they will recieve.

Why Satan is chained at the end of the Battle of Armageddon and not thrown into the lake of fire with his buddies is what I consider to be an executive deccision from the Boss. Obviously, satan's work is not finished on earth as evident by the fact that he is still able to arouse the jealously of some people, 1,000 years after Jeursalem Temple worship has been reestablished as the rule for all. Evidently, this is the last of the purifications necessary for this earth and its inhabitants to enter into the new heavens and earth to follow.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[justvisiting]

Alright Deirdre, thanks for the input. I do understand your view. I still, however, have problems with both the statement of Christ, and the statement of Paul that their shall be a (singular) resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
2 Thessalonians 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9  Who shall be punished, with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power;
10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[D4Christ]

Alright Dierdre, thanks for the input. I do understand your view. I still, however, have problems with both the statement of Christ, and the statement of Paul that their shall be a (singular) resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Rev 20 specifically tells us there are two resurrections. But there is only one resurrection of the just and unjust, (Daniel 12:2) and that takes place during the 2nd resurrection. The 1st resurrection, aka 'catching away', aka 'rapture' does not include the unjust...it is Yahushua gathering his elect from the earth whether dead or alive. However the 2nd ressurrection inlcudes both the just (those deemed righetous after the rapture) and those unjust dead from the beginning of time until the Great White Throne judgement. So Paul is correct is stating their is a (one) ressurection of the just and unjust.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[justvisiting]

Alright, a little more clarification there. I'm still not convinced. Your opinion does make sense though.
You sound like a pretty good Theologian. Been to Bible College I would bet.

 

[D4Christ]

Alright, a little more clarification there. I'm still not convinced. Your opinion does make sense though.
You sound like a pretty good Theologian. Been to Bible College I would bet.

LOL...I think people who know me would have a good laugh at that! I belonged to a 'church' same as most people, but when my best friend got saved about 5 years ago she had one pressing question for me. Why were pastors preaching an any moment rapture when 2 Thess 2 stated otherwise. After we both investigated the passages we realized that there was a lot about scriptures that was not being taught or taught incorrectly.

From that point on YHWH woke us up whenever He was ready and dragged us thru the scriptures. I said I wanted noting to do with learning about the scrolls, so that is exactly what I was compelled to study. I wanted absolutely nothing to do with learning about gog/magog either....so I was compelled to study these scriptures to the point of tears.

Nowadays I have learned to keep my mouth shut. If I come across a topic that seems too hard or difficult, I just go with the flow realzing that YHWH will get me to understand His word whether I go quietly or not. I try to go quietly...there are less tears and 2am sessions that way. :D

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[justvisiting]

Well, you still seem like a pretty good Bible student. I spent two years in college, but that was ages ago, and I have to admit I don't agree with everything they taught either.
2 Thessalonians 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
It sounds to me like the unjust being punished with everlasting destruction happens immediately upon Christ's return.

2 Peter 3:9  ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; (this is the second coming) in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11  ¶Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Now my question is? If the 1st resurrection is about believers being caught up and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Why would we look for a new heaven and a new earth 1000 years later as OUR HOPE? Seeing we have already been redeemed... and notice this says it is AT ...the DAY OF THE LORD.
This is for Deirdre... and I do understand your previous posts.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi JV,

Well you kind of already know some of what I believe. From a pre millennial POV, I see the words of Jesus and Paul as general statements with John further defining the two resurrection belief in the book or Revelation. I don't see a one resurrection fitting into the premil POV. So, from the premil POV, I rend to agree with you, Deirdre.

I don't have a view that fits any one position. I'm an End Times mutt.

Now, as I look into other views like post or amil, the one general resurrection idea fits a little better. One's overall understanding of Revelation will affect what you believe. It was Luther who first wanted to 'can' that Book. He also wanted to eliminate the letter by James, but I digress.

The more I study, the more I lean towards some form of historicist/reformed POV. I don't adhere the the belief of a future 70th. week and I have reservations concerning a literal 1,000 reign.

By the way...what do the Baptists believe...seeing as how this is mostly their website...Bible College influenced???

Which website are you referring to, JV? As for the SBC, they are primarily of the pretrib position, but as for congregational members, we are 100% free to believe other End Times beliefs. If that wasn't so, I'd be long gone by now. :yes

 

[justvisiting]

Sorry, didn't get what SBC stands for. The millenial positions were quoted from Wikipedia.
Is that Southern Baptist College? I also probably am an endtime mutt. I really have problems with Revelation being part of Canon. It just doesn't mix with what I find Jesus, Paul, and Peter to say. However, I am not determined on that... and I do read it. It makes for confusion with me though. It would have helped if the book was very chronological also.

 

[Vic C.]

SBC is Southern Baptist Convention and one of their primary schools is the Dallas Theological Seminary, which is Pretribulational.

 

[justvisiting]

Ok, thanks for that... and on that note I have to run and do some business. Maybe talk later.
By the way I am not trying to persuade anyone as to my position, (Ha! if I have one). Just looking for some good Theologians and answers.

 

[D4Christ]

justvisiting,

I prefer the NLT so I've reposted the verses in question if you don't mind.

2 Thess 1

7 And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power. 10 When he comes on that day, he will receive glory from his holy peopleâ€â€praise from all who believe. And this includes you, for you believed what we told you about him.

If I can paraphrase...verse 7 states that YHWH will provide rest (via rapture) for those going thru persecution (ie. the Great Tribulation) when Yahushua appears in the clouds of heaven with His angles (who gather His elect from the corners of the world...Matt 24).

Now we also know from Rev 6 and 8 that after the elect are raptured at the sign of the DOL, that the judgments of the DOL are unsealed and begin (via his angels). Therefore verse 8 makes sense becasue after our rapture comes the wrath of YHWH, during which judgment is unleashed on those who dwell on the earth and missed the rapture. These people who refuse to obey the gospel of Christ will be punished with eternal separation from YHWH (verse 9). In that day (Day of the Lord, which is a continous day) YHWH's people will praise His name forever.

These are four verses that summarize what happens in "that day" and cannot be judged apart from other scriptures which go into the details of these briefly mentioned events in 2 Thess 1. The unbelieving will be judged with terrible punishments after the rapture resulting ulitmately in their separation. But to include this information in this summary of events is not to say that they happen simultaneously. I find that when the scriptures mean immediately they say it. And when scriptures are tying to let us know the order of events words like, then, after or soon are used.

You stated this question;

Now my question is? If the 1st resurrection is about believers being caught up and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Why would we look for a new heaven and a new earth 1000 years later as OUR HOPE? Seeing we have already been redeemed... and notice this says it is AT ...the DAY OF THE LORD.

I wonder if you are seeing the 1st resurrection and the 2nd coming as two different events.

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

11 Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, 12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.

The Day of the Lord is a day of darkness and gloom where the elements in the sky seem to fade away. It is a day of wrath and judgment that those dead and alive in Christ are not destined to experience (verse 10).

However it is a day we should hurry along and be excited about because the signs that announce this day also announce the time of our rapture...this is why Christ tells is in Matthew 24 to look for these signs in the sky (verse 11). Verse 12 states we should look foward to the new heavens and new earth but it does not say this is our Hope.

If you are questioning why New Jerusalem does not come down until after 1,000 years I cannot answer that. But remember the 1st resurrection that takes place at the 2nd coming of Christ states we will be with the Lord forever...it is in His timeframe that we receive our rewards and our mansions. But ask yourself this....the millennial period is a time when YHWH's earthly temple is run from Jerusalem the way He orginially intended. If it takes 1,000 for these people on earth to establish this Kingdom, who are we to question the timeframe. If New Jerusalem can only come down onto a new earth....it makes since that this does not happen until the earthly millenial kingdom has completed its assigned tasks.

It is mostly tradition that states we will be on streets of gold right away when we get to heaven. So, where are we immediately after the rapture? With YHWH and that's enough for me. There aren't too many details about the legistics of it all but we cannot know everything. I find peace that sometimes YHWH's timing is YHWH's timing.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[researcher]

So....... what's .... your view.?????

Postmillennialist, "partial" preterist.

Basically speaking. ;) :D

 

[turnorburn]

And then there's this "You'd Better Right With Jesus When He Returns"


turnorburn

 

[justvisiting]

Any more views out there on the Premillenial position or something close to it. Any good prophecy teachers etc. I'm just looking to qualify the book of Revelation, with the rest of scripture. I have given a chart of Historical Premillenialism ... if someone has something else... I would be happy to at least look at it. There are some...SEEMING (to me)... conflicts between other new testament teaching and the book of Revelations. I am only trying to see if someone can provide some good Biblical answers for my own satisfaction.
As stated. All quotes on millenialism were taken from Wikipedia.
Sorry there Deirdre. Didn't see your post until after I wrote this. I'll take another look at it.