Book of Revelation conflicts...amillenial,pre...

[NIGHTMARE]

Ok, I'm not choosing sides one way or another, but lets play a game of hide and seek. :D

We are all here to think I would hope, so, where in Mark 13 is antichrist mentioned?

Mark 13:14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"

 

[justvisiting]

Revelation 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Acts 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joel 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
You really should try an Evangelical church. Your Theology is way off base.

 

[justvisiting]

I spent two years in Bible College and the first thing you learn about coming to any conclusions is:
1. stick to the Bible because...2 Peter 1:19  ¶We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2. 2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Scripture supports scripture. You don't have to look for peripheral so called scholars that really only lean on their own understanding anyway.

 

[researcher]

I really think you need to read the full context of mark 13. The...THIS Generation that Christ is speaking of is the generation that is in the tribulation.
Did you notice that it mentions the sun turning black, the moon blood red, the antichrist etc.

The Jews did go through tribulation, 66-70AD. Tacitus and Josephus contend it was very bad, the worst war between nations ever known because of its brutality and suffering.

As for the sun being black, stars falling etc (I don't see the moon turning red in those verses), it is common prophetic language in the OT when describing the destruction of a nation -

Here is one about Pharaoh and Egypt -
Eze 32:2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.
Eze 32:6 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.
Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Don't know where the rest of your Theology sits but ... do you believe the Resurrection has already happened.
2 Timothy 2:16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19  ¶Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Paul wrote that 1942 years ago in 67AD. The Apostles also wrote:

Heb 10:37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.

Rom 13:11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

 

[researcher]

Revelation 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Acts 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joel 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
You really should try an Evangelical church. Your Theology is way off base.

Israel
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed yet a dream: and, behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[researcher]

I spent two years in Bible College and the first thing you learn about coming to any conclusions is:
1. stick to the Bible because...2 Peter 1:19  ¶We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2. 2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Scripture supports scripture. You don't have to look for peripheral so called scholars that really only lean on their own understanding anyway.

Maybe we should stick to the scriptures that the Apostles and Jesus read. :P

 

[justvisiting]

Paul wrote that 1942 years ago in 67AD. The Apostles also wrote:

Heb 10:37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.

Rom 13:11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

If you are wondering. All the early Christian believed that Christ would return almost immediately. Part of the glorious hope.
Paul still qualified what had to happen before Christ would return. 1 thess. 4 to 2 thess. 2... other scriptures about the resurrection. 1 Cor. 15 etc. Certainly, they had the HOPE of Christ's soon return. They still followed what they knew were the scriptural events before it would happen.

 

[justvisiting]

I spent two years in Bible College and the first thing you learn about coming to any conclusions is:
1. stick to the Bible because...2 Peter 1:19  ¶We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2. 2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Scripture supports scripture. You don't have to look for peripheral so called scholars that really only lean on their own understanding anyway.

Maybe we should stick to the scriptures that the Apostles and Jesus read. :P

Actually, the OT was used by them... but Jesus opened the scriptures to the Apostles after His Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48  And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[justvisiting]

This was written to Christian believers because they wondered why the Lord had not returned yet.
2 Peter 3:3  ¶Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8  ¶But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9  ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[researcher]

Paul wrote that 1942 years ago in 67AD. The Apostles also wrote:

Heb 10:37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.

Rom 13:11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

If you are wondering. All the early Christian believed that Christ would return almost immediately. Part of the glorious hope.
Paul still qualified what had to happen before Christ would return. 1 thess. 4 to 2 thess. 2... other scriptures about the resurrection. 1 Cor. 15 etc. Certainly, they had the HOPE of Christ's soon return. They still followed what they knew were the scriptural events before it would happen.

All the early Christian believed that Christ would return almost immediately.

Why?

Paul still qualified what had to happen before Christ would return.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


After Paul wrote about the "falling away" in 50AD, the Apostles were constantly warning the church about people who were falling away.

 

[researcher]

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

What was happening in the Apostles time?

The Histories
By Tacitus
January - March, A.D. 69
"I am entering on the history of a period rich in disasters, frightful in its wars, torn by civil strife, and even in peace full of horrors. Four emperors perished by the sword. There were three civil wars; there were more with foreign enemies; there were often wars that had both characters at once. There was success in the East, and disaster in the West. There were disturbances in Illyricum; Gaul wavered in its allegiance; Britain was thoroughly subdued and immediately abandoned; the tribes of the Suevi and the Sarmatae rose in concert against us; the Dacians had the glory of inflicting as well as suffering defeat; the armies of Parthia were all but set in motion by the cheat of a counterfeit Nero. Now too Italy was prostrated by disasters either entirely novel, or that recurred only after a long succession of ages; cities in Campania's richest plains were swallowed up and overwhelmed; Rome was wasted by conflagrations, its oldest temples consumed, and the Capitol itself fired by the hands of citizens. Sacred rites were profaned; there was profligacy in the highest ranks; the sea was crowded with exiles, and its rocks polluted with bloody deeds. In the capital there were yet worse horrors. Nobility, wealth, the refusal or the acceptance of office, were grounds for accusation, and virtue ensured destruction. The rewards of the informers were no less odious than their crimes; for while some seized on consulships and priestly offices, as their share of the spoil, others on procuratorships, and posts of more confidential authority, they robbed and ruined in every direction amid universal hatred and terror. Slaves were bribed to turn against their masters, and freedmen to betray their patrons; and those who had not an enemy were destroyed by friends."

 

[researcher]

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

What was happening in the 1st century? (Josephus records more false prophets in Jerusalem)

Act 8:9 And a certain man, by name Simon, was before in the city using magic, and amazing the nation of Samaria, saying himself to be a certain great one,

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ.

Act 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn aside the proconsul from the faith.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

 

[researcher]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumenē) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Oikoumenē (world) the "known world." See Luk 2:1

Tit 2:11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to All men,

Rom 16:26 made known to All nations for the obedience of faith:

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the Whole world.

1Ti 3:16...God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

1Th 1:8 For from you hath sounded forth the word of the Lord, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in Every place your faith to God-ward is gone forth; so that we need not to speak anything.

Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

 

[justvisiting]

I notice you do a lot of quoting from other sources than the Bible. That's the first way to get badly off track. I put my trust in the scriptures. There are literally thousands of views out there. The only reliable source is scripture itself.
1 Timothy 6:20  O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. <<The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.>>

I think if you attended an Evangelical church...you might actually feel the Spirit and see the light.
Nero was not the anti-Christ either.
If the tribulation WAS in their time. Shortly after that the earth would have to be consumed by fire...because that is what follows the 7 year period of the tribulation. Do the heavens and the earth look like they have been burned up? Does this seem like a new heaven and a new earth?
Philosophy means nothing to Christ. Truth and faith are what counts.

 

[justvisiting]

Anyone else out there with some views on the Resurrection and the millenium?

 

[researcher]

I notice you do a lot of quoting from other sources than the Bible. That's the first way to get badly off track. I put my trust in the scriptures. There are literally thousands of views out there. The only reliable source is scripture itself.

Tacitus was a historian. Should we read history books? The apostles were building the church, not giving history lessons on what what happening in the world at their time. It's just corroboration. ;)

 

[researcher]

I notice you do a lot of quoting from other sources than the Bible. That's the first way to get badly off track. I put my trust in the scriptures. There are literally thousands of views out there. The only reliable source is scripture itself.
1 Timothy 6:20  O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. <<The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.>>

I think if you attended an Evangelical church...you might actually feel the Spirit and see the light.
Nero was not the anti-Christ either.
If the tribulation WAS in their time. Shortly after that the earth would have to be consumed by fire...because that is what follows the 7 year period of the tribulation. Do the heavens and the earth look like they have been burned up? Does this seem like a new heaven and a new earth?
Philosophy means nothing to Christ. Truth and faith are what counts.

I think if you attended an Evangelical church...you might actually feel the Spirit and see the light.

I have the Holy Spirit. I've healed the sick and cast out demons by the Holy Spirit.

Jdg 14:6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him,

I know what that's like too. ;)

Like I said, I'm a partial-preterist. I believe we're at the end of the millennium. Then the earth is burned up. But hey, maybe the full-preterists are right and it's all finished and it was symbolic. I don't think so, but I'm open to the possibility. ;)

 

[Vic C.]

Anyone else out there with some views on the Resurrection and the millennium?

Hey JV... I believe in a future resurrection of the saints. I also believe in a millennium. I just haven't concluded if it's literal (that is, a literal 1,000 years sometime in our future) or used in a more figurative way. I do read scripture in a literal fashion, I just don't take it all so literalistic. I also understand the apocalyptic writers of Biblical times used a language ripe with symbolism that is strangely alien to us.

I also view Daniel 9:24-27 in much the same way as the historicist or reformer do (Issac Newton, for example). I believe it's Messianic and has nothing to do with antichrist and a future seven year tribulation period. That is a pivotal point for many in eschatology. I also view antichrist as more of a 'system' than a single person. This is probably why I don't see a tribulation period or antichrist in many of the passages some quote.

I'm still studying though. I also do not rule our historical accounts if they don't contradict scripture. It may actually help correct some erroneous beliefs. I guess you could say I see a "type" coming (spiritual) in what the preterist says would be THE parousia with a future physical parousia.

The basis for determining the meaning of antichrist is fairly simple; antichrist is only mentioned four times:

(1 John 2:18 KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

(1 John 2:22 KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

(1 John 4:3 KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

(2 John 1:7 KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I hope that helps explain my position a bit. Do some research on Newton ig you get a chance and ask if something on him is accurate. There are some sites out there that either misrepresent or misquote him. His observations on prophecy are public domain and not that hard to track down.

 

[justvisiting]

There is no argument that there have been many anti-Christ's and will be yet...but there is only one anti-Christ that is called the son of perdition, abomination of desolation, man of sin, the beast, or the THE anti-Christ. I also believe in the literal translation. I don't bother going outside the Bible because it is the inspired word of God.
2 Peter 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. If you believe in the power of a man of faith like Elijah being able to destroy 450 Baal worshippers by the power of God... then that's the power these men had to write the word's that God gave them.
Another reason why I stick to scripture.
1 Timothy 6:20  O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:21  Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. <<The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.>>
It is too easy to get side-tracked by every sleight of men, especially in Bible authenticity, interpretation, history, etc. I do what Paul admonishes Timothy.
2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[justvisiting]

I believe Daniel 9:24-27 has to do with the anti-christ...however, there are much clearer new testament scriptures. Why use Daniel. Jesus fully explained the scriptures when He was resurrected from the dead, to the Apostles. He was seen of them many days after the resurrection. The Apostles in turn have clearly explained it to us. My point is... why go to a partial revelation in the OT. When the full revelation is in the NT. :yes
P.S. the word revelation means revealing. Just as the practices of the OT priests were shadows and types of what was to come...so Christ is the fulfillment of the shadows and types.
Hebrews 10:1  ¶For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  ¶Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.10
The first covenant was only partial and insufficient. The new covenant is permanent and perfect. The same as the difference in revelations between the old and new testaments.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.