Book of Revelation conflicts...amillenial,pre...

[justvisiting]

I wonder if you are seeing the 1st resurrection and the 2nd coming as two different events.

You are right. This is my conflict. I don't see a second resurrection, except in Revelations.

The Day of the Lord is a day of darkness and gloom where the elements in the sky seem to fade away. It is a day of wrath and judgment that those dead and alive in Christ are not destined to experience (verse 10).
However it is a day we should hurry along and be excited about because the signs that announce this day also announce the time of our rapture...this is why Christ tells is in Matthew 24 to look for these signs in the sky (verse 11). Verse 12 states we should look foward to the new heavens and new earth but it does not say this is our Hope.

Actually, the verses I was referring to for the hope were Peter...but you are right there is no specific time tense mentioned. Iiiiimm stiiilll suspicious though!?!? :naughty
2 Peter 3:11  ¶Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (This looks to me like the new heavens and new earth have to be created now. Everything has been melted).
13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (Actually, I would say this is a hope)
Think I missed some things on the first read through. You believe that the new heavens and the new earth Will be created as soon as the Lord returns, but that New Jerusalem comes in a thousand years?

P.S. your dissertations are excellent. Also, although the New Living Translation? is easy to understand. I consider it an awful translation (rather paraphrase). I use the King James . If it's good enough for 54 scholars. It's good enough for me.

 

[justvisiting]

So....... what's .... your view.?????

Postmillennialist, "partial" preterist.

Basically speaking. ;) :D

Alright, so what does a postmillenialist,partial preterist believe. I should warn you we will probably disagree, being as how I am more premillenial inclined.

 

[justvisiting]

The key conflict that I have with Revelations vs the rest of scripture...in Deirdre's interpretation...is the dead all the way back to Adam don't get resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. However, it does make a plausible scheme... except I don't think that is what scripture really says. The resurrection of the just and unjust happens according to Paul and Jesus at the same time. That's my estimation. Your reasoning does make a go of it though. I just don't believe it.
Let me try to recap your view.Day of the Lord...Christian's taken up(1st resurrection)...mansions provided and rewards...judgement upon the rest of the earth...earth and heavens burnt up with fire...new heavens and new earth...temple restored... 1000 year reign... some bad ones alive during that time...satan loosed after the 1000 years...Gog and Magog...final judgement...new jerusalem...(2nd resurrection)great white throne judgement of the just(back to Adam) and unjust. Is that correct?
Here's an alternative. The just and unjust are raised at the day of the Lord. The unjust are held in whereever(hell) but not judged yet. The millenium goes on. Some more sinners show up. [The unjust (that were put in whereever(hell)) and the unjust from the millenium are judged with the just at the Great White Throne judgement] Just throwing stuff out there. I think I better go read some more before I babble on any longer?
In as much as I am having fun. I still can't see men all the way back to Adam being judged at the end of the 1000 year reign. Anyway, that's enough for today. :D

 

[Vic C.]

I know, it's enough to make your head spin sometimes.

You said:

The key conflict that I have with Revelations vs the rest of scripture...in Deirdre's interpretation...is the dead all the way back to Adam don't get resurrected until the end of the 1000 years.

Some here may point to this:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We can then speculate as to what happened to them.

Another scenario:

What about people like Abraham and David and Daniel and Noah and the prophets that talked about the coming of Messiah. Maybe they are included in the first resurrection.

What about this:

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Just some things to think about. ;)

 

[justvisiting]

Is the millenium for the Jews only? Sanctuary restored, etc. I know the raptured Christians are already with the Lord. I think also the unjust have been judged (everlasting fire). Maybe this is the final test for the Jews?? Just throwing stuff out there. Believe me, if you think I'm confused. You should read what various scholars come up with. Vain philosophies.
Well, at least the resurrection is not yet past... so I'm safe there.

 

[justvisiting]

Just a quick answer... no ... they go with us... but they rise just before us. You are right. Many of the dead did come out of the graves after Christ's resurrection. I really wonder what happened after they came out of the graves though. Did they return... or go with the Lord. They must have looked different than normal (perhaps ghost like) because they had to be a testimony of Christ's resurrection.
There is also an example of Isaiah being called up in the OT when Saul wanted to speak with him. Samuel was in the grave.
1 Samuel 28:15  ¶And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16  Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17  And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18  Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

By the way, not all of them came out of the graves... and at resurrection time...all that are in the graves rise. Also if you read
Acts 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
David is not ascended... and this is after the resurrection of Christ.

 

[justvisiting]

Thankyou Deirdre for all the effort you put in. I actually copied and pasted all your comments into microsoft word to look at later. I wouldn't say I am premillenialist... but you gave some good eschatology.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

ok i am gonna try to show what the Lord has shown me about this thus far and i will try to make it short and then if people need more info ask lol otherwise i will post a book here LOL.

The" millenial reign" is the same as the Day of the Lord. Immediatly after the tribulation The time of harvest comes, where Believers are reaped into the barn of the kingdom of God to meet the Lord in the air, and the wicked are thrown into the day of the Lord the time of Gods wrath on the earth. From the earths perspective this period of wrath will last 1 year long(being symbolised by the 8th day i.e. the day/year after the 7 day/years of tribulation) During this time the saints in heaven have recieved their reward and as the word of God promises, we will rule the nations with a rod of iron, we will judge the nations, it will be us with the Lord sending down the plagues of wrath in the vials upon the wicked world. To God this is as one day hence the " day of the Lord". and to Us who will be with the Lord it is as 1,000 years. I will post a couple verses here to show these timings.

Time length of God, and then on earth-Isa 34:8 For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

ok and then the time that it seems like to us at this point being with the Lord in the air-
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (this shows us that one day with the Lord meaning us being with the Lord is like a thousand years)which day is like a thousand years?

2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So the DAY of the Lord is like a thousand years to those who are will him. after this time is the judgement at the white throne.

 

[researcher]

So....... what's .... your view.?????

Postmillennialist, "partial" preterist.

Basically speaking. ;) :D

Alright, so what does a postmillenialist,partial preterist believe. I should warn you we will probably disagree, being as how I am more premillenial inclined.

Basically, I believe Jesus meant what he said when he told his disciples:

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

And that that generation was in the lifetime of His disciples.

Which would make most prophecy historic events imo.

 

[justvisiting]

ok and then the time that it seems like to us at this point being with the Lord in the air-
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (this shows us that one day with the Lord meaning us being with the Lord is like a thousand years)which day is like a thousand years?

So the DAY of the Lord is like a thousand years to those who are will him. after this time is the judgement at the white throne.

Alright, I understand your interpretation. I don't necessarily agree that this means there is no difference between 1 day and 1000 years to the Lord in the sense that they aren't different time lengths. I think it means because He is eternal, that it's all like a wisp of vapor in eternal time... but I understand your view.

 

[Drew]

Basically, I believe Jesus meant what he said when he told his disciples:

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

And that that generation was in the lifetime of His disciples.

Which would make most prophecy historic events imo.

I could not agree more. I suggest that if people actually come to terms with the fact that Jesus made the "this generation" staement to an actual audience - to real flesh and blood people standing there at the time - they would realize how exceedingly odd it would be for a reference to "this generation" to actually denote some other generation in the distant future.

Perhaps if Jesus were writing this material, and not speaking to a crowd, one could perhaps imagine that he is alluding to different generation than one contemporaneous with Him.

But He was talking to real people right in front of Him - He was not speaking past them across the centuries to us.

 

[justvisiting]

I really think you need to read the full context of mark 13. The...THIS Generation that Christ is speaking of is the generation that is in the tribulation.

Basically, I believe Jesus meant what he said when he told his disciples:

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

And that that generation was in the lifetime of His disciples.

Which would make most prophecy historic events imo.

I could not agree more. I suggest that if people actually come to terms with the fact that Jesus made the "this generation" staement to an actual audience - to real flesh and blood people standing there at the time - they would realize how exceedingly odd it would be for a reference to "this generation" to actually denote some other generation in the distant future.

Perhaps if Jesus were writing this material, and not speaking to a crowd, one could perhaps imagine that he is alluding to different generation than one contemporaneous with Him.

But He was talking to real people right in front of Him - He was not speaking past them across the centuries to us.

Did you notice that it mentions the sun turning black, the moon blood red, the antichrist etc.
Mark 13:1  ¶And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2  And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4  Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5  ¶And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7  And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10  And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11  But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12  Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14  ¶But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15  And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16  And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17  But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18  And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19  For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:21  And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23  But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24  ¶But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
These things still have not happened today. The whole context of what Christ is saying pertains to the future Tribulation.

 

[D4Christ]

justvisiting,

I haven't forgotten you, but I am still working on a repsonse for you. I have never been asked a question about 1st vs. 2nd resurrection before, so it will take me a minute to pull my research on the topic together.

YHWH willing I will be able to pull my notes together later this evening (11PM -1AM) and have something posted......when my children are sleep.

Talk to you later....Deirdre

 

[justvisiting]

Alright, I'm happy to see I've got you working hard Don't lose sleep over it. Everything will go as God planned anyway, OK.

 

[D4Christ]

Alright, I'm happy to see I've got you working hard Don't lose sleep over it. Everything will go as God planned anyway, OK.

Well you've got me thinking and that is always a good thing! We should know like we know that we know what we profess to believe in.

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, I'm not choosing sides one way or another, but lets play a game of hide and seek. :D

We are all here to think I would hope, so, where in Mark 13 is antichrist mentioned?

 

[researcher]

Basically, I believe Jesus meant what he said when he told his disciples:

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

And that that generation was in the lifetime of His disciples.

Which would make most prophecy historic events imo.

I could not agree more. I suggest that if people actually come to terms with the fact that Jesus made the "this generation" staement to an actual audience - to real flesh and blood people standing there at the time - they would realize how exceedingly odd it would be for a reference to "this generation" to actually denote some other generation in the distant future.

Perhaps if Jesus were writing this material, and not speaking to a crowd, one could perhaps imagine that he is alluding to different generation than one contemporaneous with Him.

But He was talking to real people right in front of Him - He was not speaking past them across the centuries to us.

That's how I understand it.

Mar 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say...
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.


Definitely a private audience of his disciples. ;) :D

 

[researcher]

I really think you need to read the full context of mark 13. The...THIS Generation that Christ is speaking of is the generation that is in the tribulation.
Did you notice that it mentions the sun turning black, the moon blood red, the antichrist etc.

The Jews did go through tribulation, 66-70AD. Tacitus and Josephus contend it was very bad, the worst war between nations ever known because of its brutality and suffering.

As for the sun being black, stars falling etc (I don't see the moon turning red in those verses), it is common prophetic language in the OT when describing the destruction of a nation -

Here is one about Pharaoh and Egypt -
Eze 32:2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.
Eze 32:6 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.
Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[justvisiting]

Ok, I'm not choosing sides one way or another, but lets play a game of hide and seek. :D

We are all here to think I would hope, so, where in Mark 13 is antichrist mentioned?

Mark 13:14  ¶But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

2 Thessalonians 2:1  ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3  ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; This is the anti-Christ4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[justvisiting]

I really think you need to read the full context of mark 13. The...THIS Generation that Christ is speaking of is the generation that is in the tribulation.
Did you notice that it mentions the sun turning black, the moon blood red, the antichrist etc.

The Jews did go through tribulation, 66-70AD. Tacitus and Josephus contend it was very bad, the worst war between nations ever known because of its brutality and suffering.

As for the sun being black, stars falling etc (I don't see the moon turning red in those verses), it is common prophetic language in the OT when describing the destruction of a nation -

Here is one about Pharaoh and Egypt -
Eze 32:2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.
Eze 32:6 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.
Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Don't know where the rest of your Theology sits but ... do you believe the Resurrection has already happened.
2 Timothy 2:16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19  ¶Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.