Boxing

[jasoncran]

Street fighting is dirty but boxing is just a cleaner version of street fighting. The object of both is to beat someone up. In some street fights it just a couple of punches with no desire to pull out knives or beat someone to a pulp in other street fights if someone is killed, so be it. In boxing the object is always to knock someone out if possible. That is brutal! If someone is not knocked out the object is to beat them to a bloody pulp if possible. That is brutal. To make it twice as brutal there is a referee whose job is to allow and watch over someone getting the daylights beat out of them. And to make it 3 times as brutal there are actually people paying and cheering for someone to be beat up. That is heartless, grotesque, and rather shocking. To compare boxing with Romans is very fitting since Romans have a cruel sports history. I agree with lamplady that there is just no way around it, boxing is a violent/cruel sport. The fact that it has rules can`t change that.

ok then i would mention that i feel the same way about tv these days.

thats your right, but is football any better? how many kids done at age thirty.

is soccer less violent, no crowds fighting there when teams lose.

i would add that unless you do some type of realistic attack simulation(as much as possible) that no self-defense training will work.

you have to control the the emotions in order to be able to react, doing open air katas doesnt cut or aikido drills with no hard arts (that have the attacks and sparring) to it.

one must see or sense the attack to stop it

i dont do the sports side of what i do for money.

if i do go to watch a fight, its because i want my guy to win and that i helped him or her be where they are.

 

[lamplady]

Street fighting is dirty but boxing is just a cleaner version of street fighting. The object of both is to beat someone up. In some street fights it just a couple of punches with no desire to pull out knives or beat someone to a pulp in other street fights if someone is killed, so be it. In boxing the object is always to knock someone out if possible. That is brutal! If someone is not knocked out the object is to beat them to a bloody pulp if possible. That is brutal. To make it twice as brutal there is a referee whose job is to allow and watch over someone getting the daylights beat out of them. And to make it 3 times as brutal there are actually people paying and cheering for someone to be beat up. That is heartless, grotesque, and rather shocking. To compare boxing with Romans is very fitting since Romans have a cruel sports history. I agree with lamplady that there is just no way around it, boxing is a violent/cruel sport. The fact that it has rules can`t change that.

 

[pjt]

ok then i would mention that i feel the same way about tv these days.

thats your right, but is football any better? how many kids done at age thirty.

is soccer less violent, no crowds fighting there when teams lose.

i would add that unless you do some type of realistic attack simulation(as much as possible) that no self-defense training will work.

you have to control the the emotions in order to be able to react, doing open air katas doesnt cut or aikido drills with no hard arts (that have the attacks and sparring) to it.

one must see or sense the attack to stop it

i dont do the sports side of what i do for money.

if i do go to watch a fight, its because i want my guy to win and that i helped him or her be where they are.

I will agree with you that a lot of TV and movies are just plain violent these days and people sit and watch it for entertainment. I don`t have the stomach for that. But as for it being a person`s right, of course it is a person`s legal right just as boxing is a person`s right. If people want to box that is their business, and if people want to pay to watch boxing that is their business as well. My only point is to answer the question of whether it is violent or not. I believe it is violent.

I don`t think soccer is violent but as you pointed out some countries, definitely not all, have a tendencies for the audiance to break out in violence over a game. So the audiance is violent not the sport. Hockey I would say it not necessarily a violent sport but some players turn it into a violent sport which I see as violating the spirit of the game. Boxing the spirit of the game is violent through and through. I just don`t see any way around that. Now is it moral? Godly? or something Christians should do? Those are completely different questions that I think the individual has to grapple with. But is it violent? Yes, it is.

As for martial arts, for the most part you see people going in their dojos in nice white clothes and coming out with nice white clothes, not bloody. They go in perhaps smiling and talking to friends and leave the same way, not with blackeyes and swollen cheeks. When they practice their fights, it is very safe and clean especially for the lower belts. My sister did karate and all her fights were choreographed so for every punch she knew what punch or kick was coming and what block she was supposed to use, and the lower belts tended to be very slow in their punches and kicks. No one wanted to hurt another person. In fact, when they did punch they were not to make contact with a person`s face but to stop in front of the face in case the other person missed the block. There were NEVER any injuries in her class even in the higher belts. The higher belts of course stopped the choreographing but they controlled their fights to not injure each other. Isn`t that part of martial arts to learn self control? My sister`s sensei was not a sissy either. He was in the special forces of the military and often went on special missions where I am sure he had killed some people in his work, but in the dojo he had control and taught people control. He did not permit careless behavior that could hurt another person and when this was taught in class, this attitude went into society as well. The object was never to hurt for hurting`s sake or for entertainment or fun. Now some martial arts are different as I mentioned before the cocky girl. In that case, her martial art form was violent in its core and much worse than boxing, but I don`t think all are like that, but that is just my somewhat inexperienced opinion of martial arts.

 

[jasoncran]

that is because when you train for a fight you train at half-speed.
and sadly many martial arts are useless and would not and dont work!

they are simply money gimmick and not a combat art with some idea of teaching that this for self-preservation and so on but rather now is a kids art that has arms and legs flying everywhere that look pretty in a competition but useless in a street.

you dont have to use full power all the time to get something but you have to actually bet hit with some amount of force from time to time to see what its like that is what i meant

and that friend sounds close to what i did

i learned how to fight so that i dont have too.
but even in my mma gym we have control.

i had a kid in neck crank and the coach told me move to another technique.
i had him in arm bar earlier and he wasnt tapping till after added that extra umph.

when he tapped i wanted to make sure that his arm was ok so i asked.

we do have control, but when the fights on in the ring its time to go.

i can control the level of when i hit with the amount of force, that is done and taught in any good gym/dojo

boxers do that in thier training.

i have trained in that as well.

 

[old_tractor]

But the same aim remains; to attack, to bruise, to hurt, to cause bleeding, to knock someone out; all = fighting in my book ...

May I assume that your handle "Lamplady" indicates you are a woman? If so, I would simply suggest that you are feminine and the "weaker vessel" to use a Biblical term. You do not and cannot understand masculine behavior.

I would gently remind you that if you were ever assaulted, you would probably pray for the intervention of a police officer or another who would use "fighting" or "violence" to assist or protect you. Where do you expect such a person to learn how to do this efficiently?

 

[old_tractor]

My only point is to answer the question of whether it is violent or not. I believe it is violent.

Okay, so what? Do you believe violence is wrong? Further, do you believe anyone who uses violence has committed a sin?

 

[pjt]

Okay, so what? Do you believe violence is wrong? Further, do you believe anyone who uses violence has committed a sin?

I believe violence for the sake of violence is wrong and in most of these cases I could consider it a sin. In the case of boxing, I believe it is violence for the sake of violence but whether it is a sin or not I will leave it up to God to decide because I honestly can not give a definite answer, and I certainly do not know the hearts of each individual boxer and what motivates them to box. I think the motivation probably is looked at closely by God in deciding if it is a sin or not but I am not the Judge. The only things I can say definitively are sin are the things written as sins in the Bible. However, I would lean towards it not being a sin because no laws are violated and it is 2 willing people going in the ring. Therefore, it is not violence exerted on a weaker or unwilling person. However, it is purposely violating the body which if one is a Christian it is the temple of God and if one is not a Christian it is a man made in the image of God. If one believes smoking is a sin because it is harmful to the body then I think that theory would have to hold true for boxing. I personally leave smoking for God to decide as well. I can not say it is a sin although I do believe it is not good for the body so people should avoid it. One could also argue it is a bad example for young people to have "idols" or "heros" who beat up other people and might inspire the young person to get cocky and pick fights. I think we are responsible before God to consider the impact of our behavior on other people. We are not responsible for their behavior but we are responsible for our influence, and I do not think boxing is a good influence on anyone.

With that said, I do not believe all violence is wrong. Violence for the sake of self defence is not wrong but actually necessary at times.

 

[jasoncran]

the police atheletic league uses boxing for keeping kids straight.

that and other sports. its a mentor program.

 

[pjt]

the police atheletic league uses boxing for keeping kids straight.
. its a mentor program.

I would question if that were the best mentoring program. Many at risk kids already have a propensity for violence so teaching them to box may be strenghtening them if they end up using it on an innocent person. I realize these kids need to get rid of pent up energy so what about basketball or soccer? Why do they need to be taught to pound out their aggressions and frustrations on another living being? At risk kids are the worst case scenerios of who to introduce boxing to, I think. If someone is to do boxing, I think it should only be the most mentally and emotionally mature, stable people who will use the sport responsibly if that is possible. Look at Mike Tyson, he was one troubled kid that never should have been taught boxing because it equipped he to be a monster. Why give potentially dangerous kids such a dangerous weapon like boxing to play with? That is irresponsible in my opinion.

 

[jasoncran]

I would question if that were the best mentoring program. Many at risk kids already have a propensity for violence so teaching them to box may be strenghtening them if they end up using it on an innocent person. I realize these kids need to get rid of pent up energy so what about basketball or soccer? Why do they need to be taught to pound out their aggressions and frustrations on another living being? At risk kids are the worst case scenerios of who to introduce boxing to, I think. If someone is to do boxing, I think it should only be the most mentally and emotionally mature, stable people who will use the sport responsibly if that is possible. Look at Mike Tyson, he was one troubled kid that never should have been taught boxing because it equipped he to be a monster. Why give potentially dangerous kids such a dangerous weapon like boxing to play with? That is irresponsible in my opinion.

yet martial arts is ok?
didnt you just agree with me on that mma gym call he has kids and i'm sure a few are like that.

its not about violence as they would stop that training immediately, its about discpline
a boxer must only use his fists in the ring an nowhere else if they do then the shouldnt box. that was the problem with tyson. he was a money maker and that got in the way of that good judgment.

we take troubled kids in the military! i have seen a few of those that have some rap sheets. its not that often but it has happened.

 

[pjt]

yet martial arts is ok?
didnt you just agree with me on that mma gym call he has kids and i'm sure a few are like that.

its not about violence as they would stop that training immediately, its about discpline
a boxer must only use his fists in the ring an nowhere else if they do then the shouldnt box. that was the problem with tyson. he was a money maker and that got in the way of that good judgment.

we take troubled kids in the military! i have seen a few of those that have some rap sheets. its not that often but it has happened.

As I mentioned before, I see martial arts and boxing as very different. I don`t lump them into the same catagory. I would not be the best one to make a call for whether to teach at risk kids martial arts or not. I think a study should be done to see how many kids in a martial arts mentor program graduated and never used their learning for violent or criminal behavior. I think martial arts could be effective if it was stressed over and over to the kids that martial arts is a privilege to learn and possess therefore it comes with great responsibility to use the skill as a protector for the weak only in self defence situations where talking or walking away does not work, but it is not to be used as a tool for the strong. For at risk kids though, "who is weak?" "What is self defense?" (they may think name calling is a legitimate reason for self defence) "when to walk away" etc. may be cloudy for them to see so in addition to martial arts, they probably would need "conflict resolution classes" or something like that.

Yes, we take troubled kids in the military and my dad gripes about this. He said when he was young the military was a place of honor with honorable people. It did not want a bunch of thugs representing it, but things have changed. Now it recruits the thugs it once rejected and the result is the embarrassing abuses we see on TV today that our military men and EVEN WOMEN are participating in. Some of their behavior is not honorable at all. Of course, the military has always been known for "cursing sailors" and men who get drunk and use women on their time off, but when on duty they have been known to be honorable, but when you fill the military with dishonorable people, the influence starts to seep out.

 

[jasoncran]

actually you would be suprised at the discipline we have in the miltary.

its not the way it used to be but not as you think.

society is a shining turd at times , and turds make turds to be blunt.

my piont is by knowing when to punch and kick in a ring, and yes point fighting does draw blood at times.

in my day my bbelt test was so rigourous that combat was easy! i told the 7th dan who tested me that and thats why i do it to see if in a fight you wont give up

he wore my out yet never really hurt me but i know that i couldnt touch him.

man i wish i had a video of that. my old sensei does.

by learning to fight you dont have to fight.

you learn to control that anger as you see what it will do. you would be suprised that boxing in the gym during training is much like that.they dont let you fight full bore each night.

you cant, so you must have some control so that you can train and get better.

but in competion its on!

 

[old_tractor]

With that said, I do not believe all violence is wrong. Violence for the sake of self defence is not wrong but actually necessary at times.

That being so, how can one effectively defend one's self unless one had some kind of training? People are simply not prepared to give and take violence unless they understand they can take a punch.

Red Grange once said of football that: "It teaches you that you can take a licking without crying about it and dish one out without bragging about it."

 

[pjt]

That being so, how can one effectively defend one's self unless one had some kind of training? People are simply not prepared to give and take violence unless they understand they can take a punch.

"

Well, David in the Bible had no training other than watching sheep when he went against Goliath. All the military trained men were too chicken. I would venture to say most people in society are not trained to fight but if someone broke in our homes and threatened our children some instincts would kick in to defend ourselves. For example, last year there was a story of a 80 something year old woman who was threatened by an intruder in her home and she picked up a frying pan, gave the young man a whack, and he ran! She said the only training she had was raising 4 boys! Revolutions/uprisings are often done by regular people who have just had it from the cruel oppression of their leaders. They have not had special military training. They are just people that grab sticks, guns, or what ever they have at their disposal to stand up for their rights. There is a self defense instinct in all life. Bugs, plants, animals and humans all have it and when cornered, it usually kicks in.

God also gives us adrenilin which allows us to take the punch, stab, bullet or whatever it is at the moment. Many times you hear stories of people who have been hurt, even shot and they say initially they felt no pain. In that adrenilin rush, they just feel the survival or fight instincts. So we don`t have to be trained to take a punch. God takes care of that for us in emergency situations. Now military and police are different stories, but regular people don`t have to prepare. I`m almost 41 and have never been in a fight and have never received a punch. My parents are almost 70 and I can say the same for them as well as my friends around me. That does not mean it will never happen but most people can go through life without fighting and without having to worry about being in a fight. Therefore, fighting is not something your average person needs to train or be prepared for, but if it comes we can just rely on our instincts.

 

[jasoncran]

Well, David in the Bible had no training other than watching sheep when he went against Goliath. All the military trained men were too chicken. I would venture to say most people in society are not trained to fight but if someone broke in our homes and threatened our children some instincts would kick in to defend ourselves. For example, last year there was a story of a 80 something year old woman who was threatened by an intruder in her home and she picked up a frying pan, gave the young man a whack, and he ran! She said the only training she had was raising 4 boys! Revolutions/uprisings are often done by regular people who have just had it from the cruel oppression of their leaders. They have not had special military training. They are just people that grab sticks, guns, or what ever they have at their disposal to stand up for their rights. There is a self defense instinct in all life. Bugs, plants, animals and humans all have it and when cornered, it usually kicks in.

God also gives us adrenilin which allows us to take the punch, stab, bullet or whatever it is at the moment. Many times you hear stories of people who have been hurt, even shot and they say initially they felt no pain. In that adrenilin rush, they just feel the survival or fight instincts. So we don`t have to be trained to take a punch. God takes care of that for us in emergency situations. Now military and police are different stories, but regular people don`t have to prepare. I`m almost 41 and have never been in a fight and have never received a punch. My parents are almost 70 and I can say the same for them as well as my friends around me. That does not mean it will never happen but most people can go through life without fighting and without having to worry about being in a fight. Therefore, fighting is not something your average person needs to train or be prepared for, but if it comes we can just rely on our instincts.

i use people instincts in my training to choke them out!

you need to know how to control that adreline as most will go into such a panic that they wont know what to do.

 

[pjt]

i use people instincts in my training to choke them out!

you need to know how to control that adreline as most will go into such a panic that they wont know what to do.

"to choke them out"? That sounds scary!
Well, I think you have to get pretty advanced in training to learn how to control adrenilin and considering most people are not in situations where they need to control adrenilin, it is years of wasted time training for something they may never need especially for people like myself who abhor violence. I`m a woman and I don`t want to punch, kick, or hit anyone unless I absolutely have no choice but to do and so far I have gone through life without needing to do so. I prefer playing with my kids, reading my Bible, going for a walk with my dog, having tea and chatting with my friends, doing something with my husband, etc. but not training to fight. I see no need in learning to fight, but if someone does want to learn, then I think martial arts is a much better route than boxing because boxing IS learning to fight while a good martial art form is learning to defend onself and that concept is VERY different.

 

[jasoncran]

"to choke them out"? That sounds scary!
Well, I think you have to get pretty advanced in training to learn how to control adrenilin and considering most people are not in situations where they need to control adrenilin, it is years of wasted time training for something they may never need especially for people like myself who abhor violence. I`m a woman and I don`t want to punch, kick, or hit anyone unless I absolutely have no choice but to do and so far I have gone through life without needing to do so. I prefer playing with my kids, reading my Bible, going for a walk with my dog, having tea and chatting with my friends, doing something with my husband, etc. but not training to fight. I see no need in learning to fight, but if someone does want to learn, then I think martial arts is a much better route than boxing because boxing IS learning to fight while a good martial art form is learning to defend onself and that concept is VERY different.

because in the mount and when some is sitting on you want to push them off so i can use that very arm to choke.

and also yes its controlled rush as i will loose my appetite for hours after a good wrestling match.

being choked i can the know how long i have till passing out and will block that attack and also will work till i get out or tap. when i tap i learn. when i get out i have learned how to escape. in a choke when you fight hard you waste a lot of energy and will pass out even quicker as the choke in my art and judo arent traich chokes by blood chokes or both at the same time.

the blood chokes attack the blood vessels in the neck.

i look at marital arts as insurance. good to have it but its seldom used(i'm talking car insurance and home owners insurance).

but when i need its very useful.

 

[lamplady]

May I assume that your handle "Lamplady" indicates you are a woman? If so, I would simply suggest that you are feminine and the "weaker vessel" to use a Biblical term. You do not and cannot understand masculine behavior.

I would gently remind you that if you were ever assaulted, you would probably pray for the intervention of a police officer or another who would use "fighting" or "violence" to assist or protect you. Where do you expect such a person to learn how to do this efficiently?

would never be in a situation where that would happen ...

 

[jasoncran]

would never be in a situation where that would happen ...

so you never go to atm late at night.

go to a bank?

my mom had a gun pointed at her in the middle of a convience store, and my dad was the clerk that wasnt at late hours if i recall.

we can minimilize the chance but never completely remove that we can be a victim of a crime.

 

[lamplady]

so you never go to atm late at night.

Definitely not regularly ...

go to a bank?

Yes

my mom had a gun pointed at her in the middle of a convience store, and my dad was the clerk that wasnt at late hours if i recall.

we can minimilize the chance but never completely remove that we can be a victim of a crime.

It won't ever happen all right ... ...

....