Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

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Dave...

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II. "BUT ELECTION ISN'T FAIR!"

Some years ago I was at a weekend retreat with a group of university students. During a discussion period someone raised the subject of predestination and election. One girl asked, "Where does the Bible clearly teach that God sovereignly chooses some people to be saved?" I asked her to read Romans nine out loud. She paused a second with a surprised look on her face as she slowly read "before they were born or had done good or evil." When she got to 9:13 and read, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated," she stopped and said, "But that's not fair." I asked her to read the next verse. The King James Version says, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." She had a modern speech translation and it said, "You will object and say, 'but that's not fair.'" The surprised girl blurted out, "That's what I just said."

Now listen very carefully. If you object to election on the grounds that you think it is unfair, you are using an objection that has already been used and answered in the Scripture. The moment you say, "Election is unfair," you are admitting that you disagree with Paul's teaching in Romans 9:11-13 because that is the very objection he is presupposing his opponents will make. In his answer Paul does not back up or soften his statement. He declares that God has every right to show mercy to whomever he chooses.

The young lady continued to read Romans nine. She read verse 18, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." She literally gasped, "Then man cannot be held responsible. He is only a robot." Again I asked her to read the next verse. The King James says, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" The young lady's modern speech translation read, "You will say to me, 'Then man cannot be held responsible. He is only a robot.'" The poor girl said, "I did it again!" Let me repeat what I just said. If you object to election on the grounds that you think it makes man a robot, you are using an objection that has already been used and answered in the Scripture. The moment you say, "Election means man cannot be held responsible," you are admitting that you disagree with Paul's teaching in Romans 9:18. Again, we see that Paul did not soften his statement. He declares that the Potter has the sovereign right to fashion, as he chooses, the lump of clay which is sinful man.

Both of the above objections forget the fall of Adam and the doctrine of depravity. They treat sinners as if God created them sinful instead of remembering that we all chose, in Adam, to sin...."


http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/reisingerelection.html
 
The elected are those who will believe. They are predestined to eternal life. This was the plan before the foundation of the world was set in place. Yes, God did pick some few men and women to do the things that they did. As the Scriptures tell us that God raised up Pharoah for His very purpose of displaying His power, might and care for His people.

Yes, God did raise up John the Baptist from before His birth to be the one who would go before the Lord. To cry out to us to make straight our paths.

But there are people who choose to follow after Jesus and God's salvation all the time in every generation that are just people who heard and believed. Just as Jesus said, "Blessed are those who believe and have not seen."

Now, why did God choose Abram of Ur to be the one to begin the generations of a nation to be known as Israel? That we don't know and have to trust that it was God's sovereign choice made from His knowledge of the type of man that Abram was. But God has declared that His will is that all come to the knowledge of His salvation and that's exactly what is being worked out, although all will not believe.
 
God's desire doesn't always reflect His eternal purpose. That's the short answer.

I get back later if you need further explanation.

Dave
Hey Dave...

No, I think I'm good with my understanding. You see, my understanding doesn't have to argue whether it's fair or not. God desires that all be saved and the proclamation of the gospel to all people is how He is accomplishing that task... but again, not all will believe. My understanding doesn't mean that God pre-chose everyone who will come to salvation through His Son's sacrifice and teachings. But it does agree that God did predestine that all who would believe would receive His mercy and eternal life.

So, where you see that specific people by name were predestined, I see that it was predestined that all who would believe will be saved... which I find the Scriptures teach fairly clearly.
 
The elected are those who will believe.
This is the old "God looked down the corridors of time and fore-saw everybody who would believe by their own free will and elected them."

Basically people elect themselves and God puts His stamp of approval on it.

Noting unfair about that. But wait a minute, wouldn't it be unfair to be born into a primitive tribe in the jungle who never heard the gospel and therefore, could never make the choice?
 
But wait a minute, wouldn't it be unfair to be born into a primitive tribe in the jungle who never heard the gospel and therefore, could never make the choice?
Hi Whatever

No, that would be a failing of men. Jesus told us to go out to all the nations. If we don't go, that's on us. Jesus knew that person in that tribe in Africa hadn't heard about him and sent us out there to tell him. In fact, at the time that Jesus spoke that command to his disciples he knew that the majority of the world hadn't heard about him. Again, that's what the Scriptures seem to clearly teach. Just as Israel not being always faithful to God isn't on God... that's on Israel. Mankind has free choice in the matter.

God raised Israel up to be His people but clearly, when He then tells us that not all Israel will be saved, that's because of the willful rebellion of mankind.
 
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But wait a minute, wouldn't it be unfair to be born into a primitive tribe in the jungle who never heard the gospel and therefore, could never make the choice?
But wait a minute, wouldn't God having chosen Abraham and raised up a nation through him to be God's people be unfair to the Amalekites and Amorites and all the people of other nations living on the earth in that day?
 
Both of the above objections forget the fall of Adam and the doctrine of depravity. They treat sinners as if God created them sinful instead of remembering that we all chose, in Adam, to sin...."
To answer the question: "BUT ELECTION ISN'T FAIR!" one must define "fair".
Human definition 1: without favoritism or discrimination

From human perspective 1 it is "unfair" to assign the sin of another (Adam) to all mankind. It is unfair to give everyone a sin nature due to Adam's sin


Human definition 2: The right of the Creator to create as He wishes (Romans 9:21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]?
From human perspective 2 it is "fair" for the God to do however He pleases

 
The elected are those who will believe.
But there are people who choose to follow after Jesus and God's salvation all the time
Both statements fail to address the all important question as to the CAUSE of people believing. I assume you mean to say the cause is a person self-determining whether to believe salvificly which can be proven false by empirical evidence but I won't go there. Rather ...

God determines ALL THINGS as proven by the following syllogism:
Premise 1: Even GOD cannot know what NOTHING will do in the future (ex nihilo nihil fit)
Premise 2: GOD existed before anything was created. There was only Him and NOTHING
Premise 3: GOD is all knowing and immutable
Conclusion: The only way GOD could know a person would come to believe salvificly is if HE determined it. (He can't look into the future and figure out what NOTHING will do)

Aside: Anyone who believes in self-determined faith believes in salvation by works for works is defined as the mental or physical process to achieve a purpose. Thus, one who believes he self-determined his salvation believes in works salvation which many verses contradict. If you are partially responsible for your salvation then you and God share in the glory of your salvation and you have reason to boast. Congrats!!
 
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Faith is a GIFT, like Salvation and Repentance are. Therefore, people cannot make it or get it ON THEIR OWN,
Agreed

they need to ACCEPT it from God. 2 Peter 1:1 .
2 Peter 1:1 To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours
Re: "they need to ACCEPT it from God" ..... There is no need for a person to ACCEPT it from God; rather, God will cause them to RECEIVE it. In other words, salvific faith is NOT something someone can chose to not accept. If that was the case then self-determination would be needed which is a WORK which contradicts scripture that says we are not saved by works. (we probably have a semantical disagreement)

Where is there Biblical evidence for "Premise 1"? [Premise 1: Even GOD cannot know what NOTHING will do in the future (ex nihilo nihil fit) ]
It is simple logic. God does not know what nothing will do. You won't find premise 1 in the Bible just like you won't find in the Bible that 1+1=2 yet the logic is indisputable.
 
There is no need for a person to ACCEPT it from God; rather, God will cause them to RECEIVE it. In other words, salvific faith is NOT something someone can chose to not accept.
People can choose to accept or refuse gifts. Why are God's gifts called gifts and not "forces"??
What is the point of preaching if people are just selected by God like a person picks out letters from a stack of envelopes? God will select them anyway, preaching is a useless effort if your view is true.

Not all self determination is necessarily work.

Let's apply this to corporate style jobs. So i can be bodily lazy but mentally willing to work? Wow, someone should pay me at least 10$ every hour then, because my self-determine counts as work.


(Paraphrase) "CHOOSE this day whom ye will serve." - The Bible.
"Uh, choose? never! God chooses FOR you! Or He mind controls you! 😠" -You
 
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The elected are those who will believe. They are predestined to eternal life. This was the plan before the foundation of the world was set in place. Yes, God did pick some few men and women to do the things that they did. As the Scriptures tell us that God raised up Pharoah for His very purpose of displaying His power, might and care for His people.

Yes, God did raise up John the Baptist from before His birth to be the one who would go before the Lord. To cry out to us to make straight our paths.

But there are people who choose to follow after Jesus and God's salvation all the time in every generation that are just people who heard and believed. Just as Jesus said, "Blessed are those who believe and have not seen."

Now, why did God choose Abram of Ur to be the one to begin the generations of a nation to be known as Israel? That we don't know and have to trust that it was God's sovereign choice made from His knowledge of the type of man that Abram was. But God has declared that His will is that all come to the knowledge of His salvation and that's exactly what is being worked out, although all will not believe.

Election refers to the Jews who were elected for purpose not elected for salvation.


of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls) Romans 9:4-11



The purpose of God’s election was for the bloodline of the Messiah.
 
God is Omniscient, therefore He knows what nothing will do. And nothing isnt anything, and only "things" can do anything. We have not observed nothing do anything except just be nothing.
Simple logic.
Your logic is contradictory.

I won't bother going deeper .... we disagree and leave it at that


People can choose to accept or refuse gifts. Why are God's gifts called gifts and not "forces"??
If a person can choose to reject/accept God's gift of salvation then this is evidence of WORKS salvation as your statement shows a person must be the cause of something needed for salvation. This contradicts scripture.

Not all self determination is necessarily work.
Definition of WORK: activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
THerefore, by definition you are incorrect in regards to salvation. (Keep in mind that my statement was in regards to salvation being a WORK of not so your example is irrelevant)

I can see we won't get anywhere so I will let you have the last word if you wish.