Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[jasonc]

Circumstancision was a symbol that God was your God and you choose him

In order to be a male in right standing in Israel you had to be circumcized if you weren't as an adult .

Those children of the captivity were circumcized by the time they occupied the land as adults .

 

[Fish153]

When it comes to Predestination and Election I think it's safe to say that much of it is a mystery we cannot fully understand. The Bible says we are "dead in trespasses and sins". Now a dead man cannot make any "choices". We are all like Lazarus in a spiritual sense. Lazarus was DEAD. He could not choose a thing. Jesus had to CALL HIM FORTH for him to be alive. I believe the same applies to us. We are dead in our sins spiritually. Completely dead. We cannot even hear the Gospel unless the Holy Spirit awaken us to hear it:

"On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND TO PAUL'S MESSAGE". (Acts 16: 13, 14).

Note: It is possible to be a "worshipper of God" and still not be truly born-again. Lydia is a prime example of this. She was very religious---but the Holy Spirit had to touch her heart before she truly understood. Did Lydia "choose" to understand the Gospel? No---the Lord had to touch her first before she understood. And I think this is where predestination and election come in.

Do we understand it (predestination)? No. Can we understand it? I don't believe so. Maybe "as through a glass darkly" (blurry) we can understand a bit of it. But it would take an INFINITE mind to understand it fully. So in our LOGIC we say "IT ISN'T FAIR!!" because we do not understand the plans of God. In our LOGIC we look at a Trinity and say "it doesn't make sense" and discount it----but the Bible clearly teaches it. The Bible teaches we were "chosen before the foundation of the world" and some shout "unfair!!". But again, we must remember we are not God are we?? It's very difficult sometimes to just say "I can't explain predestination fully. I don't fully understand it, but one day I will" when asked to explain it. I believe God will reveal many things after the world comes to an end.

 

[LeviR]

We are saved by our obedience; by obeying the Gospel.

Yes we are.

Perhaps some don’t understand how a covenant works.
It is essentially an agreement between two or more parties.
The terms of the agreement are laid out and the parties must agree on them.

One party agrees to do his part, and the other agrees to do his part. It’s basically a contract. It says “You’ll get this if you do that”.

If one party is forced or coerced into the contract against his will, the contract is void. It would not be considered a just agreement by both parties unless the terms are agreed upon by both parties.

The terms of the covenant which actually has the power to save are laid out by God.
He promises eternal life and the inheritance of His Kingdom and of the world, IF the other party agrees to that promise by believing and exercising faith in the promise.
God explains how He is to do His part, and the recipient of the promise must agree to do his part.

If the recipient fails to do his part, the agreement is made void and God is not required to fulfill His part.

So, God makes the way for man to inherit the promises, and man agrees to that way.
No one is forced or coerced into the agreement. It is of mutual agreement and consent by both parties. And it is required that both parties fulfill their own part.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

We are saved by our obedience; by obeying the Gospel.

Absolutely false, the Gospel declares that the elect are saved by the obedience of the One Christ Jesus Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:19 (KJV)
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So by the consequential actions of the first Adam, the entire human race was plunged into sin and death but by the obedience of Christ who went to the cross to pay for the sins of His Elect, many have been made and many shall be made righteous, in other words, they have become saved. (Mat 25:46 KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. https://www.scionofzion.com/romans5_15-21.htm

 

[electedbyHim]

When it comes to Predestination and Election I think it's safe to say that much of it is a mystery we cannot fully understand. The Bible says we are "dead in trespasses and sins". Now a dead man cannot make any "choices". We are all like Lazarus in a spiritual sense. Lazarus was DEAD. He could not choose a thing. Jesus had to CALL HIM FORTH for him to be alive. I believe the same applies to us. We are dead in our sins spiritually. Completely dead. We cannot even hear the Gospel unless the Holy Spirit awaken us to hear it:

"On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND TO PAUL'S MESSAGE". (Acts 16: 13, 14).

Note: It is possible to be a "worshipper of God" and still not be truly born-again. Lydia is a prime example of this. She was very religious---but the Holy Spirit had to touch her heart before she truly understood. Did Lydia "choose" to understand the Gospel? No---the Lord had to touch her first before she understood. And I think this is where predestination and election come in.

Do we understand it? No. Can we understand it? I don't believe so. Maybe "as through a glass darkly" (blurry) we can understand a bit of it. But it would take an INFINITE mind to understand it fully. So in our LOGIC we say "IT ISN'T FAIR!!" because we do not understand the plans of God. In our LOGIC we look at a Trinity and say "it doesn't make sense" and discount it----but the Bible clearly teaches it. The Bible teaches we were "chosen before the foundation of the world" and some shout "unfair!!". But again, we must remember we are not God are we?? It's very difficult sometimes to just say "I don't know, but one day I will" when asked to explain it.

Completely agree.

Many worship "god" and claim to be Christian.

Even the demons "believe".

Look at all the apostates, who have claimed to be born again and have walked away from God. The Bible says they were never truly saved.

I believe we know a very minute fraction of anythiong about God.

Everything He wants us to know about Him are in the 66 books of the Bible

But many will tell you that is not true.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

More commentary on Rom 5:19

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
19. For, &c.—better, "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the One shall the many be made righteous." On this great verse observe: First, By the "obedience" of Christ here is plainly not meant more than what divines call His active obedience, as distinguished from His sufferings and death; it is the entire work of Christ in its obediential character. Our Lord Himself represents even His death as His great act of obedience to the Father: "This commandment (that is, to lay down and resume His life) have I received of My Father" (Joh 10:8). Second, The significant word twice rendered made, does not signify to work a change upon a person or thing, but to constitute or ordain, as will be seen from all the places where it is used. Here, accordingly, it is intended to express that judicial act which holds men, in virtue of their connection with Adam, as sinners; and, in connection with Christ, as righteous. Third, The change of tense from the past to the future—"as through Adam we were made sinners, so through Christ we shall be made righteous"—delightfully expresses the enduring character of the act, and of the economy to which such acts belong, in contrast with the for-ever-past ruin of believers in Adam. (See on [2201]Ro 6:5). Fourth, The "all men" of Ro 5:18 and the "many" of Ro 5:19 are the same party, though under a slightly different aspect. In the latter case, the contrast is between the one representative (Adam—Christ) and the many whom he represented; in the former case, it is between the one head (Adam—Christ) and the human race, affected for death and life respectively by the actings of that one. Only in this latter case it is the redeemed family of man that is alone in view; it is humanity as actually lost, but also as actually saved, as ruined and recovered. Such as refuse to fall in with the high purpose of God to constitute His Son a "second Adam," the Head of a new race, and as impenitent and unbelieving finally perish, have no place in this section of the Epistle, whose sole object is to show how God repairs in the second Adam the evil done by the first. (Thus the doctrine of universal restoration has no place here. Thus too the forced interpretation by which the "justification of all" is made to mean a justification merely in possibility and offer to all, and the "justification of the many" to mean the actual justification of as many as believe [Alford, &c.], is completely avoided. And thus the harshness of comparing a whole fallen family with a recovered part is got rid of. However true it be in fact that part of mankind is not saved, this is not the aspect in which the subject is here presented. It is totals that are compared and contrasted; and it is the same total in two successive conditions—namely, the human race as ruined in Adam and recovered in Christ). JFB https://biblehub.com/commentaries/jfb/romans/5.htm

I like his exposition its sound !

 

[LeviR]

JLB



Absolutely false, the Gospel declares that the elect are saved by the obedience of the One Christ Jesus Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The obedience of Christ to his God makes the election and predestination of others possible.
Those of like faith as Abraham.

 

[brightfame52]

The obedience of Christ to his God makes the election and predestination of others possible.
Those of like faith as Abraham.

Absolutely false statement

 

[Tenchi]

Too often, Calvinists hijack verses, making them fit the Calvinist/Reformed systematic. Ephesians 2:1 is a good example. Calvinists make much of the word "dead" in the verse, likening the unregenerate to corpses that are utterly without capacity to respond to anything. But this is clearly an overstatement of Paul's words. "Dead," particularly in this case, speaks of separation, not total inability. All of mankind has been separated from God spiritually since the Fall in Eden, but this has not meant that every person since then has been totally without the capacity to respond to God, corpse-like in their minds and hearts toward Him. Job, Noah, King David, Daniel, Cornelius - these all are given high praise in Scripture, though not one of them was spiritually-regenerated, born-again, after the manner of a post-Calvary Christian.

Job 1:1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Ezekiel 14:14
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, says the Lord GOD.

Acts 10:1-2
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one who feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

Over time, human beings grow hardened toward God, cold, blind and deaf toward Him, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. And so, especially when they have had years to become "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3:13) require God's aid in receiving the Gospel (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 timothy 2:25). But it simply isn't the case that people are, from birth, utterly corpse-like in their hearts and minds toward God unable to respond in the slightest to Him. The men mentioned above show that this Calvinist understanding of "dead" is overstated.

It is also a facile approach to Scripture that handles it such that paradoxical and even contradictory "knots" form which are then consigned to the "divine mystery" category. There are other soteriological systematics that don't leave the reader of Scripture with the bizarre conclusions and logical "knots" that plague Calvinism. Molinism, Provisionism and Arminianism all avoid the biggest and most glaring "knots" produced by the Calvinist "doctrines of grace." It's by no means necessary, then, to think that Calvinism is the only, or the best, soteriological game in town. Not at all.

www.soteriology101.com - Provisionism
www.reasonablefaith.org - Molinism
www.evangelicalarminians.org - Arminianism

 

[LeviR]

Too often, Calvinists hijack verses, making them fit the Calvinist/Reformed systematic. Ephesians 2:1 is a good example. Calvinists make much of the word "dead" in the verse, likening the unregenerate to corpses that are utterly without capacity to respond to anything. But this is clearly an overstatement of Paul's words. "Dead," particularly in this case, speaks of separation, not total inability. All of mankind has been separated from God spiritually since the Fall in Eden, but this has not meant that every person since then has been totally without the capacity to respond to God, corpse-like in their minds and hearts toward Him. Job, Noah, King David, Daniel, Cornelius - these all are given high praise in Scripture, though not one of them was spiritually-regenerated, born-again, after the manner of a post-Calvary Christian.

Job 1:1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Ezekiel 14:14
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, says the Lord GOD.

Acts 10:1-2
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one who feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

Over time, human beings grow hardened toward God, cold, blind and deaf toward Him, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. And so, especially when they have had years to become "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3:13) require God's aid in receiving the Gospel (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 timothy 2:25). But it simply isn't the case that people are, from birth, utterly corpse-like in their hearts and minds toward God unable to respond in the slightest to Him. The men mentioned above show that this Calvinist understanding of "dead" is overstated.

It is also a facile approach to Scripture that handles it such that paradoxical and even contradictory "knots" form which are then consigned to the "divine mystery" category. There are other soteriological systematics that don't leave the reader of Scripture with the bizarre conclusions and logical "knots" that plague Calvinism. Molinism, Provisionism and Arminianism all avoid the biggest and most glaring "knots" produced by the Calvinist "doctrines of grace." It's by no means necessary, then, to think that Calvinism is the only, or the best, soteriological game in town. Not at all.

www.soteriology101.com - Provisionism
www.reasonablefaith.org - Molinism
www.evangelicalarminians.org - Arminianism

Calvinist have bought into the unbiblical idea of “spiritually dead”.
That term is nowhere found in scripture. It’s a man made invention.
And from that false idea flows Calvinism.

If the correct view were understood, Calvinist would lose the entire basis for their idea.

The scripture makes it very clear that all humans are under the condemnation of Adam’s sin.
It’s not a matter of whether anyone likes that idea or not. It’s what we are told.

As soon as people are made aware of this many start to cry, “no, that not true! No one is guilty and held accountable for Adam’s sin. People die because they themselves sin”

So they reject the clear words of scripture because they have other ideas. This sort of thing happens all the time.
They don’t agree with something the scripture teaches so they make up their own idea and say it’s Biblical.

It’s very difficult to get someone to accept the clear teaching of scripture once they take hold of their own idea.

This is where Calvinism fails. They refuse to accept that all humans are under the sentence of death as pronounce upon him in Gen 3:19.
So what they do is claim instead that man is “spiritually dead” rather than being under the death sentence to return to the ground from which he was made.

When Jesus said, “let the dead bury their dead”, he was not referring to them as being “spiritually dead” but rather as being under the sentence of death pronounced upon them.

If they had been followers of him, they would be able to go from the condemnation in Adam to being granted eternal life. They could be said to be made alive rather than being dead.

Calvin’s entire philosophy is based on the false idea of “spirituality dead”.

 

[Dave...]

Do better than what? I accept all that Paul wrote in the verses you've quoted. Again, I just don't accept the Calvinist way of understanding these verses. So, no, I don't "have to do better than that." I'm not the one, you see, employing fallacies in support of my understanding of Paul's teaching.

Tenchi

I'm glad that you understand those passages quoted in the OP. If you could please share that information with us. Please tell us what you think Paul is saying in these Passages Romans 9:11-13, 18-20. What is your understanding of these verses? That way, we will have something to apply all that context that you've provided to, other than 'I don't want to believe it'. You can even use your parentheses method, but, instead of your understanding of Calvinism, you can insert (Tenchi believes this means...).

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

Romans 9:18-20 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

Dave

 

[LeviR]

Tenchi

I'm glad that you understand those passages quoted in the OP. If you could please share that information with us. Please tell us what you think Paul is saying in these Passages Romans 9:11-13, 18-20. What is your understanding of these verses? That way, we will have something to apply all that context that you've provided to, other than 'I don't want to believe it'. You can even use your parentheses method, but, instead of your understanding of Calvinism, you can insert (Tenchi believes this means...).

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

Romans 9:18-20 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

Dave

Paul is explaining that the promised seed of Abraham, which was to be Christ, would come through Issac and then Jacob and no other sons of Abraham.
There was to be a specific line of descendants in which Christ was to come.

Both Abram and Sarai names were changed to express their faith in the promise of God. Abram to “father of a multitude of nations”, and Sarai to Sarah, the mother of that multitude.
Abraham was very grieved that his other son was not made heir of the promise. But that’s how God was establishing His covenant with Abraham.
So it is to be accepted that way.

That promise is fulfilled in Christ who came from Abraham, Issac and Jacob, through which the promise was confirmed.

It is therefore only those who come to Christ who are counted as the seed of Abraham and sons of God.

That door of salvation is open to all to believe.

 

[brightfame52]

LeviR

It is therefore only those who come to Christ who are counted as the seed of Abraham and sons of God.

That door of salvation is open to all to believe.

Believers are those God gave to Abraham to be Father to, when He yold him Gen 17:5-7

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

God makes believers, He chooses who will be a believer a child of Abraham just like He chose Issac to be his son, Isaach had no choice in the matter, he was a product of Gods promise and power.

 

[LeviR]

LeviR



Believers are those God gave to Abraham to be Father to, when He yold him Gen 17:5-7

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

God makes believers, He chooses who will be a believer a child of Abraham just like He chose Issac to be his son, Isaach had no choice in the matter, he was a product of Gods promise and power.

And your entire belief system is based on the idea of people being spiritually dead . An idea completely foreign to scripture..

 

[brightfame52]

And your entire belief system is based on the idea of people being spiritually dead . An idea completely foreign to scripture..

Believers like Isaac were children of promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Isaac had no choice on whether or not he was going to be a heir,a believer, God predetermined that, so it is with all believers/heirs , Abrahams Spiritual children

 

[Whatever]

And your entire belief system is based on the idea of people being spiritually dead . An idea completely foreign to scripture..

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive . . .

If they were alive and walking around and thinking, what kind of "dead" were they in?
What kind of "alive" did they receive?

 

[LeviR]

Believers like Isaac were children of promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Isaac had no choice on whether or not he was going to be a heir,a believer, God predetermined that, so it is with all believers/heirs , Abrahams Spiritual children

What God predetermined was that Christ was to come by the promise He made to Abraham. Christ was to come through a specific line by which the inheritance was to be obtained.

How can you claim that God’s choice of Isaac, by whom was to come Christ, means He chooses everyone else who is to be heir with Christ and Abraham and Issac through no choice of their own?

It’s a simple matter of God revealing His plan of salvation to not only the Jewish people but also for Gentiles.

And that plan was established 430 years before the law at Mount Sinai.

When the seed had come, so had the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
And the offer becomes open to Gentiles. To be heirs of the same promise. By the same faith of Abraham. To all those who had, have, and will have that same faith.

The promise made to Abraham has yet to be completely fulfilled. This means the day of salvation is still present.
And believers are exhorted not to fall back to the deceitfulness of sin or they will be cut off.

The promise to Abraham came without the law. The law was given to the Jews 430 years later so that they might recognize their own inability to live up to it completely and to seek salvation by faith instead. The same faith of Abraham.

 

[LeviR]

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive . . .

If they were alive and walking around and thinking, what kind of "dead" were they in?
What kind of "alive" did they receive?

When Paul speaks to the Gentiles it must be remembered that they were not under the laws of God. God gave His laws to the Jews only.
The Gentiles were dead, just as the Jews, because of Adam’s sin. And not because they failed to keep God’s laws.
However, just as the Jews, the Gentiles are seen as incapable of attaining salvation by a strict adherence to God’s laws.

The Gentiles were considered dead by the law called “the law of sin and death”.
This law says that all in Adam must die. It includes both Jew and Gentile.

The Gentiles are dead in trespasses and sin of Adam. And even if they were to place themselves under Judaism, the law could not save them, but only add more to their condemnation.

 

[Fish153]

Yes we are.

Perhaps some don’t understand how a covenant works.
It is essentially an agreement between two or more parties.
The terms of the agreement are laid out and the parties must agree on them.

One party agrees to do his part, and the other agrees to do his part. It’s basically a contract. It says “You’ll get this if you do that”.

If one party is forced or coerced into the contract against his will, the contract is void. It would not be considered a just agreement by both parties unless the terms are agreed upon by both parties.

The terms of the covenant which actually has the power to save are laid out by God.
He promises eternal life and the inheritance of His Kingdom and of the world, IF the other party agrees to that promise by believing and exercising faith in the promise.
God explains how He is to do His part, and the recipient of the promise must agree to do his part.

If the recipient fails to do his part, the agreement is made void and God is not required to fulfill His part.

So, God makes the way for man to inherit the promises, and man agrees to that way.
No one is forced or coerced into the agreement. It is of mutual agreement and consent by both parties. And it is required that both parties fulfill their own part.

Levi----- You are teaching works salvation. The Old Testament Covenant is what you are describing. And God tells us how badly man failed to uphold his end of it!! But God promised that He would make a NEW covenant--not based on OUR works---but on HIS PROMISES. You really need to go back and read the New Testament and understand what it is teaching. What we could NOT do---God DID. That is the basis of the New Covenant. We don't accomplish anything by OUR works or what we DO----we are saved by what Jesus DID and what is FINISHED and DONE. That is why it is called THE GOOD NEWS! If our salvation depended in any way upon us we would be the most miserable of people and the good news would not be good news at all!

 

[LeviR]

Levi----- You are teaching works salvation. The Old Testament Covenant is what you are describing. And God tells us how badly man failed to uphold his end of it!! But God promised that He would make a NEW covenant--not based on OUR works---but on HIS PROMISES. You really need to go back and read the New Testament and understand what it is teaching. What we could NOT do---God DID. That is the basis of the New Covenant. We don't accomplish anything by OUR works or what we DO----we are saved by what Jesus DID and what is FINISHED and DONE. That is why it is called THE GOOD NEWS! If our salvation depended in any way upon us we would be the most miserable of people and the good news would not be good news at all!

Anyone who says the law is not just and right and good is lawless.

The law that gets us all is that pesky 10th commandment. It speaks right to the root of all evil. It speaks right to our very nature.
It’s the one that got Adam and Eve.

Our nature disqualifies us from a strict adherence to the law.

The only one who obeyed it completely was Christ. He denied himself at every turn.
He’s my hero.