Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[LeviR]

What does it mean to be spiritually dead?​

To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God. When Adam sinned in Genesis 3:6, he ushered in death for all humanity. God’s command to Adam and Eve was that they could not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It came with the warning that disobedience would result in death: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’” The phrase “you shall surely die” could be literally translated “dying you shall die.” This signifies a continuous state of death that began with spiritual death, continues throughout life as a gradual degradation of the body, and culminates in physical death. The immediate spiritual death resulted in Adam’s separation from God. His act of hiding from God (Genesis 3:8) demonstrates this separation, as does his attempt to shift blame for the sin to the woman (Genesis 3:12).

Unfortunately, this spiritual – and eventual physical – death was not confined to Adam and Eve. As the representative of the human race, Adam carried all of humanity into his sin. Paul makes this clear in Romans 5:12, telling us that sin and death entered the world and spread to all men through Adam’s sin. Additionally, Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death; sinners must die, because sin separates us from God. Any separation from the Source of Life is, naturally, death for us.

But it is not just inherited sin that causes spiritual death; our own sinfulness contributes. Ephesians 2 teaches that, before salvation, we are “dead” in trespasses and sins (verse 1). This must speak of spiritual death, because we were still “alive” physically before salvation. While we were in that spiritually “dead” condition, God saved us (verse 5; see also Romans 5:8). Colossians 2:13 reiterates this truth: “And you, who were dead in your trespasses . . . God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.”

Since we are dead in sin, we are completely unable to trust God or His Word. Jesus repeatedly claims that we are powerless without Him (John 15:5) and that we cannot come to Him without God’s enabling (John 6:44). Paul teaches in Romans 8 that our natural minds cannot submit to God, nor please Him (verses 7-8). In our fallen state, we are incapable of even understanding the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

The act of God whereby He makes us alive from spiritual death is called regeneration. Regeneration is accomplished only by the Holy Spirit, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When we are regenerated, we are made alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5) and renewed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). It is like being born a second time, as Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:3, 7. Having been made alive by God, we will never truly die – we have eternal life. Jesus said often that to believe in Him is to have eternal life (John 3:16, 36; 17:3).

Sin leads to death. The only way to escape that death is to come to Jesus through faith, drawn by the Holy Spirit. Faith in Christ leads to spiritual life, and ultimately to eternal life.

Gotquestions.org

Do you see how you added your own ideas to Adam’s punishment?
They aren’t your own ideas they are the ideas of someone else. But because you added them to your own they are now owned by you.

And everyone who accepts the idea you now own as your own, owns it also.

Funny how that works.

You say:

“It came with the warning that disobedience would result in death: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’” The phrase “you shall surely die” could be literally translated “dying you shall die.” This signifies a continuous state of death that began with spiritual death, continues throughout life as a gradual degradation of the body, and culminates in physical death.”

It began with spiritual death?

Nope. It began by Adam retuning to the ground he was made from.
Did you miss that part?

“from dust you are and to dust you shall return”?

Thanks be to God I don’t have to own your ideas.

 

[Fish153]

Do you see how you added your own ideas to Adam’s punishment?
They aren’t your own ideas they are the ideas of someone else. But because you added them to your own they are now owned by you.

And everyone who accepts the idea you now own as your own, owns it also.

Funny how that works.

You say:

“It came with the warning that disobedience would result in death: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’” The phrase “you shall surely die” could be literally translated “dying you shall die.” This signifies a continuous state of death that began with spiritual death, continues throughout life as a gradual degradation of the body, and culminates in physical death.”

It began with spiritual death?

Nope. It began by Adam retuning to the ground he was made from.
Did you miss that part?

“from dust you are and to dust you shall return”?

Thanks be to God I don’t have to own your ideas.

LeviR--- read this verse:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". (1 Cor. 15: 22)

Is Paul saying that those who accept Christ will never physically die? Of course not. We will all die physically, even though Christ raised from the dead. But then it says : "IN Christ shall all be made alive"-- how can you be "made alive" if you are not "dead" first? The verse is clearly saying that those IN CHRIST were once spiritually dead but now are "made alive" by being born again (regenerated). The word "regenerated" infers being brought back to life from death--doesn't it? Think about it. The "idea" electedbyHim is sharing is a scriptural teaching. It comes from the Bible---it isn't a fantasy someone dreamed up.

 

[electedbyHim]

Do you see how you added your own ideas to Adam’s punishment?
They aren’t your own ideas they are the ideas of someone else. But because you added them to your own they are now owned by you.

And everyone who accepts the idea you now own as your own, owns it also.

Funny how that works.

You say:

“It came with the warning that disobedience would result in death: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’” The phrase “you shall surely die” could be literally translated “dying you shall die.” This signifies a continuous state of death that began with spiritual death, continues throughout life as a gradual degradation of the body, and culminates in physical death.”

It began with spiritual death?

Nope. It began by Adam retuning to the ground he was made from.
Did you miss that part?

“from dust you are and to dust you shall return”?

Thanks be to God I don’t have to own your ideas.

Do you see how you added your own ideas to Adam’s punishment?
They aren’t your own ideas they are the ideas of someone else. But because you added them to your own they are now owned by you.

What does that have to do with anything?

But you have your opinion not based in the Bible.

 

[LeviR]

What does that have to do with anything?

But you have your opinion not based in the Bible.

Look, someone told you that Adam experienced spiritual death when he sinned.
But that’s not what God told Adam would happen if he sinned. God told him he would die. And he would die by returning to the dust he was made from.

Why you believe a false idea might be that you prefer someone else to explain the text to you rather than what is explained by the text itself.

I encountered that problem many years ago. Was I to accept what some else says or what God says. I chose the latter.

 

[electedbyHim]

Look, someone told you that Adam experienced spiritual death when he sinned.
But that’s not what God told Adam would happen if he sinned. God told him he would die. And he would die by returning to the dust he was made from.

Why you believe a false idea might be that you prefer someone else to explain the text to you rather than what is explained by the text itself.

I encountered that problem many years ago. Was I to accept what some else says or what God says. I chose the latter.

I do not agree.

If I post commentaries, that is because I believe that the Bible teaches what these men of God wrote.

The Bible teaches that man is Spiritually dead and cannot choose salvation.

You and others may believe that and that is fine, that is your opinion.

I see that man is spiritually dead when studying the Bible.

brightfame52 and Fish153 and others provided Scripture showing you that man is Spiritually dead.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[LeviR]

I do not agree.

If I post commentaries, that is because I believe that the Bible teaches what these men of God wrote.

The Bible teaches that man is Spiritually dead and cannot choose salvation.

You and others may believe that and that is fine, that is your opinion.

I see that man is spiritually dead when studying the Bible.

brightfame52 and Fish153 and others provided Scripture showing you that man is Spiritually dead.

Grace and peace to you.

I’d have no problem agreeing with you if the Bible spoke of spiritual death. But it doesn’t. So I have to agree with what it actually does say. The same wording it uses.

 

[LeviR]

What does that have to do with anything?

But you have your opinion not based in the Bible.

How is my opinion not based in the Bible. I’m not the one speaking of something the Bible never says. Those who say man is spiritually dead are the ones speaking of something not based in the Bible.

I can show where man is condemned to return to dust. You can’t show where man is spiritually dead because no one is said to be such.

 

[LeviR]

Calvin’s entire philosophy is based on the idea that man is spiritually dead. Something the Scripture never even says. Not once!
Not once in all of the over 1000 pages does the Bible speak of spiritual death. Never.

If someone wants to know what the Bible says, don’t ask a Calvinist because they’ll tell you something the Bible knows nothing of.
They’ll tell you the Bible says something it never does.

 

[brightfame52]

I’ll be the first to admit my eye sight is not what it used to be. Thanks to the nature I was created with. But it’s not my own fault, it’s my misfortune. I never asked to be a son of man.

I don’t read anywhere the words “spiritually dead “ so it caused me to pause. What I discovered is that man is like those who have been condemned with a death sentence. Called a capital sentence or capital punishment. It’s when the men on death row are considered dead men walking.

Yes it is in scripture, you just cant see it.

 

[LeviR]

Yes it is in scripture, you just cant see it.

Where?

Show just one passage, one verse, that says “spiritually dead” or “dead spiritually” or “spiritual death” or “died spiritually”

If you see it there it is because you added it there.

 

[LeviR]

Eph 2 speaks of being made alive who were once dead is trespasses and sin.

Paul does not say “ made spiritually alive” or “spiritually dead in sin”

Paul is simply saying that our sins our forgiven in Christ. We are redeemed from the grave, which is the condemnation of the sons of man by the first man.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hos 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death:

1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Co 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1Co 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Fish153]

Eph 2 speaks of being made alive who were once dead is trespasses and sin.

Paul does not say “ made spiritually alive” or “spiritually dead in sin”

Paul is simply saying that our sins our forgiven in Christ. We are redeemed from the grave, which is the condemnation of the sons of man by the first man.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hos 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death:

1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Co 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1Co 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

LeviR----

It is obvious you are not going to listen to anyone. The very fact Jesus says "You MUST be born-again" teaches spiritual death. Jesus is not saying you need to be born twice Physically. He says "that which is born of the flesh is flesh---that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". jesus says you must be born of water and of the spirit. If you are not "born-again" (RE-generated) you cannot SEE or ENTER the Kingdom of God. if you DIE in Adam you die both physically and spiritually (The Second Death)--you will PERISH. It is OBVIOUS that we are "dead in trespasses and sins". We ALL need to be called forth in the same way Lazarus was physically or we will PERISH. Jesus must call us forth out of spiritual death and "make us alive" (born-again). If you cannot see that then you are willfully blind.

 

[LeviR]

LeviR----

It is obvious you are not going to listen to anyone. The very fact Jesus says "You MUST be born-again" teaches spiritual death. Jesus is not saying you need to be born twice Physically. He says "that which is born of the flesh is flesh---that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". jesus says you must be born of water and of the spirit. If you are not "born-again" (RE-generated) you cannot SEE or ENTER the Kingdom of God. if you DIE in Adam you die both physically and spiritually (The Second Death)--you will PERISH. It is OBVIOUS that we are "dead in trespasses and sins". We ALL need to be called forth in the same way Lazarus was physically or we will PERISH. Jesus must call us forth out of spiritual death and "make us alive" (born-again). If you cannot see that then you are willfully blind.

Born-again does not teach spiritual death. It teaches eternal life.

The problem we encounter is when people ignore the context of verses. They cherry pick.

In this case, where Jesus was having a discussion with Nicodemus he said much more than just what you quote.

First off, to be born of water refers to water baptism. Some claim it refers to being born from the water of their mother’s womb.
Jesus doesn't teach fleshly things, he teaches spiritual things.

A person is born of water when he is baptized into the name of Jesus. He has a new identity. He is a new creation. He is no longer under the condemnation of Adam. And as a new creation, he walks in newness of life.

But there’s more.

This man must also be born of Spirit so that he is spirit himself. This refers to being born from the dead by resurrection.

And it is made obvious because Jesus said that those born of Spirit are like the wind. You can’t tell from where they come or where they go. They are as the angels of God. You can never tell from where they came. Nor could you follow them where they go.

Men who are not born of Spirit and therefore not spirit themselves could easily be known from where they come, and easily be followed wherever they go. They are UNLIKE the wind.

You might want to consider context before cherry picking verses.

 

[brightfame52]

Where?

Show just one passage, one verse, that says “spiritually dead” or “dead spiritually” or “spiritual death” or “died spiritually”

If you see it there it is because you added it there.

What you mean where ? You cant see it

 

[LeviR]

What you mean where ? You cant see it

No, show it to me. I can see well enough to type these words. And well enough to respond to yours.

 

[brightfame52]

No, show it to me. I can see well enough to type these words. And well enough to respond to yours.

I cant open up eyes to make you see

 

[Fish153]

Born-again does not teach spiritual death. It teaches eternal life.

The problem we encounter is when people ignore the context of verses. They cherry pick.

In this case, where Jesus was having a discussion with Nicodemus he said much more than just what you quote.

First off, to be born of water refers to water baptism. Some claim it refers to being born from the water of their mother’s womb.
Jesus doesn't teach fleshly things, he teaches spiritual things.

A person is born of water when he is baptized into the name of Jesus. He has a new identity. He is a new creation. He is no longer under the condemnation of Adam. And as a new creation, he walks in newness of life.

But there’s more.

This man must also be born of Spirit so that he is spirit himself. This refers to being born from the dead by resurrection.

And it is made obvious because Jesus said that those born of Spirit are like the wind. You can’t tell from where they come or where they go. They are as the angels of God. You can never tell from where they came. Nor could you follow them where they go.

Men who are not born of Spirit and therefore not spirit themselves could easily be known from where they come, and easily be followed wherever they go. They are UNLIKE the wind.

You might want to consider context before cherry picking verses.

LeviR---
"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he SAVED us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3: 4-6)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy HATH BEGOTTEN US again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)

There are many verses that speak of our being "born-again" or "regeneration" in PAST TENSE. It is something we have NOW. Being born-again is not the resurrection from the dead in the future---it is something that happens to us NOW while we are alive. We are "made alive again" through regeneration. The first verse above shows that he SAVED US (past tense)--BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION AND RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST.

I am not "cherry picking" verses. You are making statements from your "opinion" on the matter. I will not post any more regarding this as it is obvious you are SET in your belief.