Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[Bruce.Leiter]

II. "BUT ELECTION ISN'T FAIR!"

Some years ago I was at a weekend retreat with a group of university students. During a discussion period someone raised the subject of predestination and election. One girl asked, "Where does the Bible clearly teach that God sovereignly chooses some people to be saved?" I asked her to read Romans nine out loud. She paused a second with a surprised look on her face as she slowly read "before they were born or had done good or evil." When she got to 9:13 and read, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated," she stopped and said, "But that's not fair." I asked her to read the next verse. The King James Version says, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." She had a modern speech translation and it said, "You will object and say, 'but that's not fair.'" The surprised girl blurted out, "That's what I just said."

Now listen very carefully. If you object to election on the grounds that you think it is unfair, you are using an objection that has already been used and answered in the Scripture. The moment you say, "Election is unfair," you are admitting that you disagree with Paul's teaching in Romans 9:11-13 because that is the very objection he is presupposing his opponents will make. In his answer Paul does not back up or soften his statement. He declares that God has every right to show mercy to whomever he chooses.

The young lady continued to read Romans nine. She read verse 18, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." She literally gasped, "Then man cannot be held responsible. He is only a robot." Again I asked her to read the next verse. The King James says, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" The young lady's modern speech translation read, "You will say to me, 'Then man cannot be held responsible. He is only a robot.'" The poor girl said, "I did it again!" Let me repeat what I just said. If you object to election on the grounds that you think it makes man a robot, you are using an objection that has already been used and answered in the Scripture. The moment you say, "Election means man cannot be held responsible," you are admitting that you disagree with Paul's teaching in Romans 9:18. Again, we see that Paul did not soften his statement. He declares that the Potter has the sovereign right to fashion, as he chooses, the lump of clay which is sinful man.

Both of the above objections forget the fall of Adam and the doctrine of depravity. They treat sinners as if God created them sinful instead of remembering that we all chose, in Adam, to sin...."

http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/reisingerelection.html

That's right! I learned at Calvin Seminary that God made us as his creations both totally dependent on him and relatively independent of him as humans fully responsible for our whole lives, while God has his plans for everyone and every event.

 

[hawkman]

Yes, because of God renewing their minds.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This didn't just start in the New Testament times.

This "renewing their minds " I need more info on this , do you have any scripture in the OT ?

Man , Born again before Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected ? Explain how that is possible .

 

[hawkman]

Tenchi



Then how could they have had Faith[which pleases God] which comes from God, a fruit of the Spirit ? Read Heb 11

Their faith in part came from the proof of God in their lives . God talking to them , God walking with them , God providing for them , etc .

 

[LeviR]

I already told you: justification. Only Calvinist presuppositions demand of a reader of Scripture that they assume the saints of the OT were spiritually-regenerated. There is, though, no place in the OT (or the New) that explicitly states this, or teaches it.

Without the principle of “the just shall live by faith”, no one since the beginning of the world to the end of it could be saved. “Without faith it is impossible to please God”.
Faith requires belief in the promises of God. Faith is the demonstration of a firm belief in those promises.

Anyone considered to have faith apart from belief in the promises of God are still aliens and strangers and without hope of salvation.

 

[Whatever]

Man , Born again before Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected ? Explain how that is possible .

Luke 18:27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

This "renewing their minds " I need more info on this , do you have any scripture in the OT ?

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Why would David ask for this if he was okay as he was?

It seems that the OT was mostly interested in what was going on, not in explaining everything. That is why He gave us the New Testament.

1 Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I don't see why what Paul says above should not apply to everybody after the fall.

 

[brightfame52]

Tenchi

Does the atheist exercise faith in things?

Not as a fruit of the Spirit, No

 

[brightfame52]

Their faith in part came from the proof of God in their lives . God talking to them , God walking with them , God providing for them , etc .

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 they were born of the Spirit

 

[hawkman]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 they were born of the Spirit

And born again , this is what Jesus said in the NT .

 

[hawkman]

Luke 18:27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

You can try again if you like .

I don't see why what Paul says above should not apply to everybody after the fall.

The born again will spiritually discern the things of the Spirit of God through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit .

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Tenchi]

Not as a fruit of the Spirit, No

Galatians 5:22 says faithfulness - that is, enduring fidelity - is a fruit of the Spirit, not faith, which is the capacity to trust in something. We all have the capacity for faith, saved or not, but godly faithfulness, godly fidelity, comes from God.

So, God doesn't have to enable a special kind of faith in a lost person in order for them to trust in Christ as Savior. He draws the lost to Christ, yes, and He convicts them of sin, and He illuminates their understanding, but He doesn't have to enable in them a capacity for faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Galatians 5:22 says faithfulness - that is, enduring fidelity - is a fruit of the Spirit, not faith, which is the capacity to trust in something. We all have the capacity for faith, saved or not, but godly faithfulness, godly fidelity, comes from God.

So, God doesn't have to enable a special kind of faith in a lost person in order for them to trust in Christ as Savior. He draws the lost to Christ, yes, and He convicts them of sin, and He illuminates their understanding, but He doesn't have to enable in them a capacity for faith.

Gal 5:22 faith pistis is a noun first and foremost, when faithfulness is the emphasis the Spirit uses pistos the adjective, the word for faithful like in Eph 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Pistis Faith is a disposition of mind grounded from the new birth, and so it will cause the one with Faith to live by Faith, which in turn is faithfulness from that perspective, yet you cant hijack Faith from being a fruit of the Spirit just as love is

 

[Tenchi]

Gal 5:22 faith pistis is a noun first and foremost, when faithfulness is the emphasis the Spirit uses pistos the adjective, the word for faithful like in Eph 1:1

Well, a good number of modern versions of the Bible render pistis in Galatians 5:22 as "faithfulness." Why is that, do you think? Are the translators of the ESV, NASB, ASV, CSB, CEV, EHV, ISV, and the many other translations that render pistis as "faithfulness" just a bunch of ignoramuses, completely oblivious to what you've pointed out above? Or, perhaps, as translators they understand the nature of the verse better than you do and so render it as they have?

As Scripture says, God has given to every man a measure of faith (Romans 12:3) as a feature of what it is to be human. And so, we see atheists having faith in things, as well as Christians. If there is anything God must do to enable a lost person to faith in Jesus Christ, it is to convict them of their sin and thus aid them in humbling themselves under the truth of the Gospel.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Pistis Faith is a disposition of mind grounded from the new birth, and so it will cause the one with Faith to live by Faith, which in turn is faithfulness from that perspective, yet you cant hijack Faith from being a fruit of the Spirit just as love is

No, pistis is not unique to Christians. Atheists have faith in their spouses, favorite chefs, dentists, doctors, etc. Only Calvinists think that God must impose a special capacity for faith in Jesus Christ upon people in order for them to trust in him. In fact, some Calvinists think God must save a person in order to save them. That is, He must spiritually-regenerate a person before they can understand and accept the Gospel and trust in Christ as their Savior and Lord (and thus be saved - Romans 10:9-14). This is wacky stuff that is nowhere demonstrated or taught in Scripture. But, then, this is typical of Calvinism, which leads its proponents into a number of these bizarre ideas and conclusions.

 

[brightfame52]

Tenchi

Well, a good number of modern versions of the Bible render pistis in Galatians 5:22 as "faithfulness." Why is that, do you think? Are the translators of the ESV, NASB, ASV, CSB, CEV, EHV, ISV, and the many other translations that render pistis as "faithfulness" just a bunch of ignoramuses, completely oblivious to what you've pointed out above? Or, perhaps, as translators they understand the nature of the verse better than you do and so render it as they have?

I know about all those modern versions, u need to be careful with them, its satans attempt to corrupt the Truth I recommend the KJV translation, that said, Faith is still a noun in Gal 5:22 and its a fruit of the Spirit, first and foremost. Now its okay to extend the meaning of faith to faithfulness, but not at the expense of disregarding it as the spiritual fruit of the Spirit. Man w/o the Spirit doesnt have and cannot please God with just his own generated from the flesh faith Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Tenchi]

I know about all those modern versions, u need to be careful with them, its satans attempt to corrupt the Truth

This is an extremely facile response to the many modern translations that render pistis as "faithfulness" in Galatians 5:22. To make all the translators of these modern Bible translations into agents of Satan, who is using them to corrupt God's Truth, is just another unprovable assumption (which assumptions are, in my experience, pretty typical of Calvinists, however). Really, you should have been embarrassed just to have had the thought you express above, let alone to have written it out.

Now its okay to extend the meaning of faith to faithfulness, but not at the expense of disregarding it as the spiritual fruit of the Spirit. Man w/o the Spirit doesnt have and cannot please God with just his own generated from the flesh faith Rom 8:8

Yes, it is "okay" to recognize that pistis may mean "faithfulness," which is why so many committees of Bible translators have done so. Your Calvinist presuppositions notwithstanding, the capacity for faith is not unique to Christians and nothing you've put forward so far has countered this fact.

 

[brightfame52]

Tenchi

This is an extremely facile response to the many modern translations that render pistis as "faithfulness" in Galatians 5:22.

You have been cautioned !

 

[Tenchi]

You have been cautioned !

So have you.

 

[brightfame52]

So have you.

See ya at the Judgment

 

[Tenchi]

See ya at the Judgment

Hopefully in the New Jerusalem afterward, too. I'll be there, at least...

 

[Whatever]

(which assumptions are, in my experience, pretty typical of Calvinists, however)

Only typical of King James only people. Every other translation is demonic to them.