Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[Whatever]

No, sinners do seek salvation, but most of them end up with a false messiah, anything Satan has to offer instead of what God has to offer.

I will kind of agree with that. They do not seek for God, but they do seek:
Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil.
A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance.

So they turn to booze, flying saucers, and such, especially mind altering drugs.
Kind of like attaining Nirvana:
A state in which the mind, enlightened as to the illusory nature of the self, transcends all suffering and attains peace.

 

[Tenchi]

Well, what does this say?
Psalm 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Who is God leaving out in "the children of men"? The "all" there must mean everyone because it is backed up with "not even one."

Context is king. The Psalm begins with a clear statement of who is in view: The fool who has said there is no God (vs. 1). And so, when the Lord looks upon the "children of men" and observes the God-denying fools that there are, He sees that they are all corrupt and do no good. This is the proper reading of verse 2 because there are many examples of people in the OT who were NOT God-denying fools: Job, Enoch, Noah, Daniel, Elijah, Samuel, David, etc.

There you go again saying what Calvinists believe or don't believe.

I held to Calvinism for over twenty years. I know what Calvinists believe and don't. Of course, they are often very...slippery about their views, evading being pinned down to any of the more grotesque conclusions of their soteriological systematic by pointing out that there is a spectrum along which Calvinists are dispersed from soft, two or three point Calvinists to the much harder, full-on five point ones. In any case, the prominent representatives of the systematic have made many bizarre statements about the logical conclusions of TULIP and one has only to refer to their published and spoken statements to see that I'm not off-base at all.

Calvinist Quotes on God Determining All Evil

Calvinism is a belief in meticulious divine determinism over every thought, choice and event throughout human history–and according to John Piper this includes every one of your personal, bes…

atheologyintension.com

 

[Whatever]

This is the proper reading of verse 2 because there are many examples of people in the OT who were NOT God-denying fools: Job, Enoch, Noah, Daniel, Elijah, Samuel, David, etc.

Yes, because of God renewing their minds.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This didn't just start in the New Testament times.

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

All those obedient people in the OT were known, sanctified and ordained to not be "God denying fools." They were given eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[Tenchi]

Yes, because of God renewing their minds.

This is entirely a Calvinist assumption.

All those obedient people in the OT were known, sanctified and ordained to not be "God denying fools." They were given eyes to see and ears to hear.

And another Calvinist assumption. The verses you offered by no means establish this assumption but require a Calvinist extrapolation out of context to all of the men I mentioned.

 

[electedbyHim]

It has everything to do with salvation. A false christ has no saving power, only the true Christ does. And the warning was clear, "if possible" indicates the elect is susceptible to deception.

If possible.

 

[electedbyHim]

What that means is what the Pharisees and Sadducees meant in Matt. 3:9, "We have Abraham as our father," I'm under grace not law, I'm the elect, I was chosen before I was born, I;m entitled to salvation, I can recklessly do whatever I want and I still go to heaven. That's the self-deception I'm talking about.

I'm under grace not law, I'm the elect, I was chosen before I was born, I;m entitled to salvation, I can recklessly do whatever I want and I still go to heaven. That's the self-deception I'm talking about

I do not know any Christians (elect) who believe and act that way.

Quite the opposite, we believe we deserve hell and damnation and are thankful that the Lord saved us based on nothing we ever did.

We try to be as holy as we can given that our flesh can be an issue.

I do not know anyone who believes in the doctrines of Grace and acts that way.

If they did, they better do some self examining.

 

[electedbyHim]

This is entirely a Calvinist assumption.



And another Calvinist assumption. The verses you offered by no means establish this assumption but require a Calvinist extrapolation out of context to all of the men I mentioned.

What is your belief on the O.T. saints?

Moses, Noah, Job, David, the prophets and so on.

Did these men have salvation?

Do you Arminians not believe they were saved?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nope. All nations will be saved is not what all nations will be blessed is referring to. All nations will be blessed because Abraham and his seed would bring forth Jesus to the world. That is the blessing that Abraham provides to all the nations. It does not mean that all nations will be saved, but that all nations will be blessed to be able to hear and accept the covenant that God has made to all of those will believe in the testimony of His Son and establish him as Lord of their life. In fact, the Scriptures declare of the application of salvation to the nations, that there will be some from every tribe and tongue and nation.

Isn't Lord Jesus the savior? For all mankind? And it's none other than Abraham's legitimate descendants to bring him to all the world? To make disciples from all nations and baptize them in the name of the trinity? Then That's the same thing. "Blessing" could be material wealth and mental wellness, that's the case in Deut. 28, but surely not what it means in the Abrahamic covenant, isn't it. Again, just to clarify, this is not my opinion, I'm just putting the statement "all people will be saved" in the whole biblical narrative.

Yes, antichrist means to be against the Annointed one. And yes it can mean in place of the Annointed one.

I believe that if you live to see the last days on the earth that you may be surprised as to 'how' it all works out.

How long have you been a born again believer?

About one and a half decade, thanks for asking. But I gotta confess that I'm rich in head knowledge of God, I'm poor in emotional attachment.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I do not know any Christians (elect) who believe and act that way.

Quite the opposite, we believe we deserve hell and damnation and are thankful that the Lord saved us based on nothing we ever did.

We try to be as holy as we can given that our flesh can be an issue.

I do not know anyone who believes in the doctrines of Grace and acts that way.

If they did, they better do some self examining.

Try any happy clappy attendee in a megachurch who goes in and out with no apparent change in the rest of the week. They have nearly no cultural impact, but being impacted by the secular culture, I wonder why is that?

 

[miamited]

Hi Carry_Your_Name

I'm just putting the statement "all people will be saved" in the whole biblical narrative.

If that's the way you see it, then that's the way you see it. I'll just say that I don't agree, and we can move on.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I will kind of agree with that. They do not seek for God, but they do seek:
Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil.
A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance.

So they turn to booze, flying saucers, and such, especially mind altering drugs.
Kind of like attaining Nirvana:
A state in which the mind, enlightened as to the illusory nature of the self, transcends all suffering and attains peace.

Well, Marx once trashed religion as "spiritual opioids for the poor". We all have issues, baggages and responsiblities that cause us stress. If you take Christianity as a refuge to escape from your problems instead of empowerment to face your problems, then it's nothing more than spiritual opioids - in the same category with drugs, booze, sex, entertainment, because the goal is the same, which is to escape reality for the state of nirvana, as you described.

 

[electedbyHim]

Try any happy clappy attendee in a megachurch who goes in and out with no apparent change in the rest of the week. They have nearly no cultural impact, but being impacted by the secular culture, I wonder why is that?

How do you know they are really saved?

What does cultural impact have to do with a Christian?

I would never go to a mega church.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How do you know they are really saved?

What does cultural impact have to do with a Christian?

Everything that the Lord had to say in his letter to the Laodicean church, which I believe is the zeitgeist of the era we're living in. I don't go to a mega church either, but meanwhile I don't pretend they don't exist.

 

[Tenchi]

Do you Arminians not believe they were saved?

I'm not an Arminian. I'm a Provisionists/Molinists, if labels are important to you.

No, I don't think the OT faithful were born-again. But they were perfectly justified by Christ's atonement at Calvary.

 

[brightfame52]

Carry_Your_Name

Isn't Lord Jesus the savior? For all mankind?

No, only a remnant out from mankind, a remnant according to the election of Grace as it is stated here about some jews out of israel Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now that same election principle of Grace also calls out a remant from the gentiles Acts 15:14-18

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

To take out a people indicates an elect remnant from out of the rest !

 

[electedbyHim]

I'm not an Arminian. I'm a Provisionists/Molinists, if labels are important to you.

No, I don't think the OT faithful were born-again. But they were perfectly justified by Christ's atonement at Calvary.

No, Im not into labels.

I do not consider myself Reformed or a Calvinist.

People label me that because I believe in the doctines of Grace.

Thankl you for your honesty.

 

[Whatever]

The verses you offered by no means establish this assumption but require a Calvinist extrapolation out of context to all of the men I mentioned.

No it simply needs a further New Testament explanation of what was there in the OT.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
“You who teach others, have you need to learn the very first lessons of true religion? You who claim to loose and bind men, and place heavy burdens on them which they cannot bear, are you without the simplest real knowledge of what God is, or of what man is? Do teachers of Israel know not these things when they lie beneath every page of the Old Testament Scriptures?”

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
As such a teacher he ought to have understood this doctrine. It was not new," but was clearly taught in the Old Testament.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
The question clearly implies that the doctrine of regeneration is so far disclosed in the Old Testament that Nicodemus was culpable in being ignorant of it. Nor is it merely as something that should be experienced under the Gospel that the Old Testament holds it forth—as many distinguished critics allege, denying that there was any such thing as regeneration before Christ. For our Lord's proposition is universal, that no fallen man is or can be spiritual without a regenerating operation of the Holy Ghost, and the necessity of a spiritual obedience under whatever name, in opposition to mere mechanical services, is proclaimed throughout all the Old Testament.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Our Saviour doth not so much wonder at as upbraid the ignorance of Nicodemus, and all of his sect, who went for masters, or teachers, and that in Israel; who had the law and the prophets, and yet were ignorant of those things which were necessary to be known to every ordinary person’s salvation. Will any say, But where was there any thing spoken in the books of the law and the prophets about regeneration, or a being born again?

Answer. What other things could be meant by the circumcision of the heart, commanded by Moses, Deu 10:16, promised in Deu 30:6; by the new heart, and the new spirit, promised Ezekiel 36:26; by the clean heart prayed for by David, Psalm 51:10? A teacher in Israel should from hence have understood the necessity of a new and of a clean heart; but the whole sect of the Pharisees were so taken up with the trifles of the rites and traditions, and the works of the law, that as to these spiritual things of nearer and much higher concernment to people’s souls, they knew and spake little of them.

 

[Tenchi]

Answer. What other things could be meant by the circumcision of the heart, commanded by Moses, Deu 10:16, promised in Deu 30:6; by the new heart, and the new spirit, promised Ezekiel 36:26; by the clean heart prayed for by David, Psalm 51:10?

I already told you: justification. Only Calvinist presuppositions demand of a reader of Scripture that they assume the saints of the OT were spiritually-regenerated. There is, though, no place in the OT (or the New) that explicitly states this, or teaches it.

Romans 4:1-5
1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Galatians 3:6
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

James 2:23
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

In the OT, Abraham was justified - he was counted as righteous - by his faithful deeds; nowhere, though, does Scripture say Abraham was born-again spiritually. Christ's atoning sacrifice was "once for all" which, I believe, retroactively encompassed OT people like Abraham, making them fully, perfectly justified apart from works. But this is, at most, what I think the Bible obliges me to think was the effect of the Atonement upon any OT "saint." Only a Calvinist systematic would require me to think more had occurred.

Romans 5:15-19
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[brightfame52]

Tenchi

I already told you: justification. Only Calvinist presuppositions demand of a reader of Scripture that they assume the saints of the OT were spiritually-regenerated. There is, though, no place in the OT (or the New) that explicitly states this, or teaches it.

Then how could they have had Faith[which pleases God] which comes from God, a fruit of the Spirit ? Read Heb 11

 

[Tenchi]

Then how could they have had Faith[which pleases God] which comes from God, a fruit of the Spirit ? Read Heb 11

Does the atheist exercise faith in things? Yes, of course he does. And so does the Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim. The capacity for faith is given by God to all as a basic feature of imago dei humanness. What's more, the knowledge of God is also intrinsic to being human and is purposefully suppressed by the unrighteous (Romans 1:18-21) so that, generally, no one may escape God's judgment on the basis of ignorance (except infants who die and the congenitally intellectually deficient). So it is that there was no supernatural spiritual regeneration required - or described in Scripture - in order for men like Noah, Enoch, Job, Daniel, David, Cornelius, etc. to be the righteous men that they were.