Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[electedbyHim]

Jesus answered and said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Lk. 5:31-32

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. Jn. 6:35

You forgot the rest of the text...

36But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

 

[miamited]

Very much, we pray regularly and edify one another with word of God. One woman was laid off and she prayed on her knees fervently for another job, God showed her a neighborhood in a vision. About a month or so later she found a caretaking job in that neighborhood. You know the gospel must be preached to all nations to bear witness, the last stop is Jerusalem.

Amen brother. That we should be about spreading the gospel is our most important work that God has established before the foundations of the world were established. We are to live godly lives as we follow Jesus and we are to tell others of the hope that we have if they ask. That is the biggest reason that I find this idea that God has already chosen those who will be saved, specifically by individual, as a rather ludicrous idea. God's word says that it is His desire that everyone be saved. That's His desire from His very word. How can there be some fore chosen elect if it is God's desire that everyone come to the knowledge of His salvation through His Son's sacrifice?

God bless you and keep up that work. Be found faithful in persevering to do the good works that God has established for us to do.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, there are snobbish christians. People who are a part of the fellowship of believers. Peter and Paul both warned us of that eventuality. That there will be wolves among the flock. Jesus has even warned us that not everyone who calls out to him as Lord will be saved. So, I hear your complaint, and I agree with you that there are sinners among the fellowship of believers who are still living in sin and distorting what God's word says. Don't be one of them. You be about doing the work that the Lord has told you to be doing.

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words, all that I'm arguing is my objection to the fatalistic worldview, that everyone is predetermined to be born as a saved person or an unsaved person, that directly contradicts the Lord's born-again teaching in Jn. 3. Everybody is born as a sinner, nobody is born as a saint. Even if you were born in a Christian family and community, you're still a sinner until you personally accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior in your heart. If you presumptuously identify yourself as the "elect" before any personal and meaningful encounter with God, and trial or tribulation that builds your godly character, then that's just entitlement mentality which will make you a snob and lead you to self deception.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You forgot the rest of the text...

36But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Amen brother. That we should be about spreading the gospel is our most important work that God has established before the foundations of the world were established. We are to live godly lives as we follow Jesus and we are to tell others of the hope that we have if they ask. That is the biggest reason that I find this idea that God has already chosen those who will be saved, specifically by individual, as a rather ludicrous idea. God's word says that it is His desire that everyone be saved. That's His desire from His very word. How can there be some fore chosen elect if it is God's desire that everyone come to the knowledge of His salvation through His Son's sacrifice?

It may not be God's desire, yet it's God's adjudication that he rejects those who practice lawlessness who may or may not be under the influence of antinomianism - "all the laws are done away with". Many are called, but few are chosen. "All will be saved" is universalism promoted by Pope Francis, that's false teaching.

 

[miamited]

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words, all that I'm arguing is my objection to the fatalistic worldview, that everyone is predetermined to be born as a saved person or an unsaved person, that directly contradicts the Lord's born-again teaching in Jn. 3. Everybody is born as a sinner, nobody is born as a saint. Even if you were born in a Christian family and community, you're still a sinner until you personally accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior in your heart. If you presumptuously identify yourself as the "elect" before any personal and meaningful encounter with God, and trial or tribulation that builds your godly character, then that's just entitlement mentality which will make you a snob and lead you to self deception.

Hi Carry_Your_Name

Well, I don't know that it means that one has an entitlement mentality, but it's likely just a matter of semantics. I do agree that it may well be a matter of self-deception. But we humans are pretty good at that.

It may not be God's desire, yet it's God's adjudication that he rejects those who practice lawlessness who may or may not be under the influence of antinomianism - "all the laws are done away with". Many are called, but few are chosen. "All will be saved" is universalism promoted by Pope Francis, that's false teaching.

I don't even bother with big words to describe such things but it absolutely is God's desire that all men come to the salvation that He has provided through Jesus. That's a claim made in the Scriptures. And we all, at some time practice lawlessness. Paul wrote to us that we need to keep in mind that we were all once like them who are lawless. And I'm not in any way preaching 'all will be saved' universalism. I'm just quoting God's word that it is His desire that all men come to the knowledge of His salvation. Yes, I fully understand that such desire will never be fulfilled. But God's word has said that it is His desire. Paul wrote to Timothy these very words:

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

But the Scriptures are clear, that while that is God's desire for mankind, our wicked hearts aren't going to fulfill that desire of God. I mean, I'm sure it was God's desire that Adam and Eve not sin, but they did.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Well, I don't know that it means that one has an entitlement mentality, but it's likely just a matter of semantics. I do agree that it may well be a matter of self-deception. But we humans are pretty good at that.

What that means is what the Pharisees and Sadducees meant in Matt. 3:9, "We have Abraham as our father," I'm under grace not law, I'm the elect, I was chosen before I was born, I;m entitled to salvation, I can recklessly do whatever I want and I still go to heaven. That's the self-deception I'm talking about.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But the Scriptures are clear, that while that is God's desire for mankind, our wicked hearts aren't going to fulfill that desire of God. I mean, I'm sure it was God's desire that Adam and Eve not sin, but they did.

"All people to be saved" is the same as all nations, including the communists, paganists, muslims, even the cannibalist tribes. That's the composition of the great mulitude. Of the nation of Israel, only 144,000 from the twelve tribes are chosen; but for the rest of mankind, the redeemed come from all nations, tribes and tongues, and they're so many that no one can number. So again, that's God's grand plan spoken in a collective sense.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Says nothing about seeking salvation in the verse or context.

The natural man wants nothing to do with God.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand."

 

[electedbyHim]

He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I highlighted verse 13 for you.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

God does it all in salvation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I highlighted verse 13 for you.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

God does it all in salvation.

"Receive him" is the premise, cherrypicked text out of context is meaningless.

 

[electedbyHim]

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand."

Says nothing about salvation in context.

You highlighted the elect. They are already saved in that context.

Not a big ddeal this is not productive for either of us.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Says nothing about salvation in context.

You highlighted the elect. They are already saved in that context.

Not a big ddeal this is not productive for either of us.

Grace and peace to you.

Don't you know the name Jesus Christ means annointed savior? I highlighted "the elect", but I didn't take it out of this context about false christs.

 

[electedbyHim]

Don't you know the name Jesus Christ means annointed savior? I highlighted "the elect", but I didn't take it out of this context about false christs.

My point was it has nothing to do with salvation in the text if we go back to post #296.

It is all good, we all have what we believe is truth in our theology.

Our whole existence is to give God glory.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[miamited]

What that means is what the Pharisees and Sadducees meant in Matt. 3:9, "We have Abraham as our father," I'm under grace not law, I'm the elect, I was chosen before I was born, I;m entitled to salvation, I can recklessly do whatever I want and I still go to heaven. That's the self-deception I'm talking about.

Morning Carry_Your_Name

Yes, I would agree that there's some of that attitude that can come from such an understanding.

"All people to be saved" is the same as all nations, including the communists, paganists, muslims, even the cannibalist tribes. That's the composition of the great mulitude. Of the nation of Israel, only 144,000 from the twelve tribes are chosen; but for the rest of mankind, the redeemed come from all nations, tribes and tongues, and they're so many that no one can number. So again, that's God's grand plan spoken in a collective sense.

Yes, 'all people' is all people. But I think you're not grasping that it is God's desire, but the Scriptures are quite clear that it will not be so. Jesus, and the good news that he proclaimed was a message for all people and it is God's desire that all people listen to him and follow after him.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

You are free to argue what God's word means as you see fit, but the words above are the words that we find written in God's testimony to us. It is God's 'want' that all people be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is what God wants and that is why God sent Jesus. Even the prophecies of Jesus explain that his sacrifice is too great for only Israel, but that it will be for the whole world. That is what God's word says is what God wants and why He sent His Annointed one to us.

Honestly, when you argue against God's word and say to yourself, "Oh, that cannot be what God meant. He means that only special people such as myself who have trusted in Jesus is all that God 'wants' for mankind", that's a snobbish attitude in itself. The Scriptures tell us that we must remember, when talking and speaking to unrepentant sinners that we also were once just like them. There was a time in everyone's life that, as God sees us, we were no different than the Muslims, communists, pagans, etc. That's what the Scriptures teach us.

Titus 3:3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

Ephesians 2:1-3
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

None of us were born saved and we should not be haughty in our attitude once we do come to know and understand and accept the truth of God and seek His salvation that He has prepared for us through Jesus, the Annointed one. So, I choose to take God at His word. That His want is that all mankind come to the knowledge of His salvation that is given to us through the sacrifice of His Son. But clearly, although it is God's stated want, we do know from the replete examples given to us in the Scriptures that it will not end that way.

It may not be God's desire,

Well, as I've clearly referenced, the Scriptures say that it is.

"All will be saved" is universalism promoted by Pope Francis, that's false teaching.

I honestly have no idea where that idea came from, but my claim is not that 'all will be saved'. My claim is that God's desire is that all people come to the knowledge of His salvation. The Scriptures declare it. But as I wrote above to say that God's desire is that all be saved is not the same as saying that all will be saved.

 

[miamited]

Don't you know the name Jesus Christ means annointed savior?

For the record, I think 'christ' only means 'annointed'. And when used to refer to a person, it means annointed one. That is why we say, "Christ, our Savior." He is the annointed one sent to us as our Savior.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, 'all people' is all people. But I think you're not grasping that it is God's desire, but the Scriptures are quite clear that it will not be so. Jesus, and the good news that he proclaimed was a message for all people and it is God's desire that all people listen to him and follow after him.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

You are free to argue what God's word means as you see fit, but the words above are the words that we find written in God's testimony to us. It is God's 'want' that all people be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is what God wants and that is why God sent Jesus. Even the prophecies of Jesus explain that his sacrifice is too great for only Israel, but that it will be for the whole world. That is what God's word says is what God wants and why He sent His Annointed one to us.

Honestly, when you argue against God's word and say to yourself, "Oh, that cannot be what God meant. He means that only special people such as myself who have trusted in Jesus is all that God 'wants' for mankind", that's a snobbish attitude in itself. The Scriptures tell us that we must remember, when talking and speaking to unrepentant sinners that we also were once just like them. There was a time in everyone's life that, as God sees us, we were no different than the Muslims, communists, pagans, etc. That's what the Scriptures teach us.

Titus 3:3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

Ephesians 2:1-3
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

None of us were born saved and we should not be haughty in our attitude once we do come to know and understand and accept the truth of God and seek His salvation that He has prepared for us through Jesus, the Annointed one. So, I choose to take God at His word. That His want is that all mankind come to the knowledge of His salvation that is given to us through the sacrifice of His Son. But clearly, although it is God's stated want, we do know from the replete examples given to us in the Scriptures that it will not end that way.

What I've grasped is the Great Multitude which apostle John saw in heaven on the day of the Lord.

Well, as I've clearly referenced, the Scriptures say that it is.

Whatever you think "all people" refer to, that vision is what "all people" will be.

But as I wrote above to say that God's desire is that all be saved is not the same as saying that all will be saved.

All NATIONS will be saved, as the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant - "all nations will be blessed through you." That's not the same as "all individuals". All whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. "God desires all to be saved" is only half truth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

For the record, I think 'christ' only means 'annointed'. And when used to refer to a person, it means annointed one. That is why we say, "Christ, our Savior." He is the annointed one sent to us as our Savior.

Yes, and "Antichrist" means not only "against Christ", but also "in place of Christ", a counterfeit of the true Christ, and the whole world will fall for him.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

My point was it has nothing to do with salvation in the text if we go back to post #296.

It is all good, we all have what we believe is truth in our theology.

Our whole existence is to give God glory.

Grace and peace to you.

It has everything to do with salvation. A false christ has no saving power, only the true Christ does. And the warning was clear, "if possible" indicates the elect is susceptible to deception.

 

[miamited]

What I've grasped is the Great Multitude which apostle John saw in heaven on the day of the Lord.

Whatever you think "all people" refer to, that vision is what "all people" will be.

All NATIONS will be saved, as the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant - "all nations will be blessed through you." That's not the same as "all individuals". All whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. "God desires all to be saved" is only half truth.

Nope. All nations will be saved is not what all nations will be blessed is referring to. All nations will be blessed because Abraham and his seed would bring forth Jesus to the world. That is the blessing that Abraham provides to all the nations. It does not mean that all nations will be saved, but that all nations will be blessed to be able to hear and accept the covenant that God has made to all of those will believe in the testimony of His Son and establish him as Lord of their life. In fact, the Scriptures declare of the application of salvation to the nations, that there will be some from every tribe and tongue and nation.

Yes, and "Antichrist" means not only "against Christ", but also "in place of Christ", a counterfeit of the true Christ, and the whole world will fall for him.

Yes, antichrist means to be against the Annointed one. And yes it can mean in place of the Annointed one.

I believe that if you live to see the last days on the earth that you may be surprised as to 'how' it all works out.

How long have you been a born again believer?