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Buying a Sword

Drew said:
On what basis do you conclude that "him" is the smiter? "Him" obviously refers to the thief.

Consider the following simplified version of the statement:

If a thief is found breaking into a house and he is smitten so that he dies, there shall be no blood sacrifice for him.

Obviously the "him" is the thief. Your interpretation is simply not valid given the conventions of English.

And the fact that Proverbs 25:26 does not exclude your interpretation does not mean that it supports your interpretation.

Neither of these texts provide any support for the use of violence in self-defence.
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I don't disagree that him is the thief! There will be no blood shed on his behalf, i.e., no penalty for smiting him.

Hey, leave my interpretation alone. 8-)
 
Lewis W said:
I am getting a little tired of this subject, I have had this very same subject before on this forum. And people who think that you don't have the Biblical right to defend your family and yourself' has it all wrong. But anyway' read some of these articles below. One is even about fighting in a war. I guess you think that Christians should not defend their country also. And let the enemy kill everybody in the land.

Christians and Guns
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/stagnaro4.html

Pacifism and the Sword: Fight or Flight?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/05/ ... t_o_1.html

Why Do Christians Fight?
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12426.htm
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Lewis - you say that "we" have it all wrong, but have you have not outlined a case to say that you are right.

And yes, I do not believe that Christians should fight in war. I am a CO.

Up until Constatine needed the church to secure his power - the early church taught pacifism and CO.

Perhaps you trust your gun too much and God too less?
 
I have been very interested in this exchange. So there is a huge range of opinion among Christians about what Jesus or God wants from pacifism to some self-defense to a lot of self-defence to pre-emptive war.

So I see the different sides posting Bible verses and making their case. And from what I can tell, a lot of people are making valid points. So is there a way to find reconciliation or is there no way to prove one side has it correct?

Does prayer work to resolve this? For example, if everyone prayed, would God give the same answer to everyone on how Jesus wants people to act? I know there are some Christians that do not think that God works that way, but what about the rest?
 
Lewis W said:
Please read this one' I think this one clears it up best. And that is good because I do not feel like a lot of typing today. And it explains about Jesus on this issue a little better. Well at least I think so.

http://www.gunowners.org/fs9902.htm
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One more time' this link right here' not the other ones' is saying exactly what I mean' if you take time to read it. You will know where I am coming from. And that statement about me trusting a gun' more than God' was not' nice coming from a person like you. But anyway go to that link and scroll down to Self Defense in the New Testament and Old.
 
Lewis W said:
One more time' this link right here' not the other ones' is saying exactly what I mean' if you take time to read it. You will know where I am coming from. And that statement about me trusting a gun' more than God' was not' nice coming from a person like you.
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And what may I ask is a "person like me"?

Sorry if it stung a little Lewis W - there is one thing that I learned in the ministry is that it is okay to sometimes "hurt" people - when we are hurt, we heal - and we tend to learn from the hurt.

It is when we are 'harmed' that we scar, not heal, and learn nothing but bitterness and resentment.


I will read the article you posted, however - let's keep in mind that Jesus never sought to defend himself physically, never taught his disciples to defend themselves physically, and there is no record that the apostles defended themselves physically after Christ returned to Heaven.

Also, please, please please, keep in mind that pacifism does not mean abstinence - true biblical pacifism demands "getting in the way". I will defend my family to the point of death - my death. I will do whatever it takes to defend them - without resorting to physical violence.

Violence begets violence. It is not the way of recocilliation - that that my brothers and sisters in Christ is OUR ministry and calling - reconcillation.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Also, please, please please, keep in mind that pacifism does not mean abstinence - true biblical pacifism demands "getting in the way". I will defend my family to the point of death - my death. I will do whatever it takes to defend them - without resorting to physical violence.

Violence begets violence. It is not the way of recocilliation - that that my brothers and sisters in Christ is OUR ministry and calling - reconcillation.
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Yep. Stepping over your body will sure slow 'em down.
 
christian_soldier said:
Have you ever been physically attacked and let yourself be beaten down, or stood idly by doing nothing while someone else was?

Specific enough?
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No - I have never been physically attacked - well once when I was in the 5th grade I believe, can't remember it all that well though.

A co-worker of mine (at one time) was discussing the issue of turning the other cheek, and the other guy said to him: "What would you do if I smacked you on the cheek?" My friend replied, "I would turn and show you the other cheek." The guy responded, "And what if I hit that one too?"

My friend replied:" I would bend over and show you two more!"

Here is my point, phsyciall violence is only ONE way out of a situation. Have we forgotten to rely on God in the face of danger? Have we forgotten to be creative and think out other ways out of potentiatlly violent situations - perhaps with humor, etc?

Have I ever stood idly by? No, I cannot remember an instance where I was present while someone else was getting "beaten down". However, that does not mean that I would stand idly by.

I would get involved, even if that meant I was then the one receiving physical harm.

Part of my understanding of being a pacifist, not only means using no violence, but living a simple life so as not to encourage violence onto oneself.

Agree with their politics or not, I love the motto of the CPT (http://www.cpt.org) - "Getting in the Way". That explains in a nutshell, the biblical position of pacifism - 'getting in the way'. Pacifism does not mean avoidance of action or inaction. Rather, just the opposite. I would suggest it requires a lot of action.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Here is my point, phsyciall violence is only ONE way out of a situation. Have we forgotten to rely on God in the face of danger? Have we forgotten to be creative and think out other ways out of potentiatlly violent situations - perhaps with humor, etc?

Have I ever stood idly by? No, I cannot remember an instance where I was present while someone else was getting "beaten down". However, that does not mean that I would stand idly by.

I would get involved, even if that meant I was then the one receiving physical harm.

Part of my understanding of being a pacifist, not only means using no violence, but living a simple life so as not to encourage violence onto oneself.

Agree with their politics or not, I love the motto of the CPT (http://www.cpt.org) - "Getting in the Way". That explains in a nutshell, the biblical position of pacifism - 'getting in the way'. Pacifism does not mean avoidance of action or inaction. Rather, just the opposite. I would suggest it requires a lot of action.
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Mouth action, I guess. Humor? Yeah, good luck with that.

"but living a simple life so as not to encourage violence onto oneself."

You seem to be extremely naive.

"I would get involved, even if that meant I was then the one receiving physical harm."

Like I said, stepping over you will slow 'em down.

Well, may God Bless you and keep you out of harms way.
 
Quath said:
So I see the different sides posting Bible verses and making their case. And from what I can tell, a lot of people are making valid points. So is there a way to find reconciliation or is there no way to prove one side has it correct?
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It depends on the other side conceding that they are wrong or even understanding the problem fully. There are lots of people out there and all of them/us are imperfect so although the truth may be proved, they/we could still hold fast and reject it.

Quath said:
Does prayer work to resolve this? For example, if everyone prayed, would God give the same answer to everyone on how Jesus wants people to act? I know there are some Christians that do not think that God works that way, but what about the rest?
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Nah, this is how we grow. Relationships between brothers and sisters in Christ are important. Look at how much we are digging into His Word. :wink:
 
christian_soldier said:
Mouth action, I guess. Humor? Yeah, good luck with that.

"but living a simple life so as not to encourage violence onto oneself."

You seem to be extremely naive.

"I would get involved, even if that meant I was then the one receiving physical harm."

Like I said, stepping over you will slow 'em down.

Well, may God Bless you and keep you out of harms way.
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And shouldn't that be a prayer for all of us - that we would be kept out of harms way. And when we find ourselves in harm's way that we would rely on the strength of God to get us through it.

I did not realize it was naive to live a simple a life to not invite violence. Is it naive not to walk down dark alleys in the middle of the night? Is it naive to treat others with respect and dignity? Is it naive to offer service and help to others? Is it naive to live my life to correspond with Christian beliefs?

What does Christ teach about persecution for living out the Christian life? Are we to defend ourselves from it, or are we to rejoice in it?

While I have never been in violent confrontations, I have been in verbal ones that I have been able to difuse with humor and other means. Is that being naive?

Let me ask a simple question: At what point does someone lose the "sanctity of human life"?
 
aLoneVoice said:
I did not realize it was naive to live a simple a life to not invite violence. Is it naive not to walk down dark alleys in the middle of the night? Is it naive to treat others with respect and dignity? Is it naive to offer service and help to others? Is it naive to live my life to correspond with Christian beliefs?
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No. But believing that violent assault only occurs in dark alleys or only as a response to maltreatment of others, is.

aLoneVoice said:
Let me ask a simple question: At what point does someone lose the "sanctity of human life"?
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Force does not always mean deadly force.

Here is a true story for you.

I was minding my own business, filling my tank at 2-3 A.M.

There were a couple of guys also minding their own business, talking by their car.

Another car swung into the station, and two guys jumped out and started beating the snot out of the first two. They all seemed to be college age, with the first two seeming a bit geekier or less jock-like than the second pair.

As tired as I was, I sighed to myself, opened my trunk, took out a tire iron, pulled one of the assaulters off an assaultee and indicated I was willing to bust him wide open.

I motioned to the gas attendant, safe in his little booth, to call the police.

The trouble makers split, I paid for my gas and left as the police were pulling in.

Now, if you were to ask the two getting beat if God had intervened, what do you suppose their answer might be?
 
"Justice" popped into my mind aloneVoice. I think human life always has sanctity about it. But we still die. I do NOT think death negates the essence of sanctity in anyones life.

I have a question for you: What about governing? Do you think Christians are allowed to govern at all? Because for that, you need justice.

...and just like God asked Job...
Can he who hates justice govern? Job 34:17

And justice includes a type of violence.

It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the innocent of justice. Proverbs 18:5

We know how Jesus and justice will work when He comes back...

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. Revelation 19:11

Now I know we are not God, but I think we can administer justice too. I guess the question is. How do we adminster justice?
 
It is getting late - so I will not be able to provide a long response.

In a nutshell, I believe in restoration justice.
 
Those that know me, will tell you that I am a very passive man..

I say this because about three months ago I was at a 711 and as I was leaving I saw this young man about 25 or so (I am 42) robbing or trying to Rob this lady with her 2 children there..As they were fighting over her purse, I dropped my big gulp and pow...I smacked that dude with a left hook that I had no idea I had in me..The fool hit the ground and I called the police....I have never had a fight in my life....But the fact is that it felt Good to have helped that Lady...I would hope that if it were my wife getting robbed, someone would do the same for her.....What would Jesus have done?
 
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