Buying a Sword

[Guest]

Solo - where does it say that he used the whip on the people? NOWHERE, does it say that he HIT the people.

Try not to add to the Scripture what you would like it to say to justify your support of violence.

 

[Solo]

Solo - where does it say that he used the whip on the people? NOWHERE, does it say that he HIT the people.

Try not to add to the Scripture what you would like it to say to justify your support of violence.

Your earlier post was deceptive in that you spoke of Jesus only driving the oxen and sheep from the temple. The Scripture plainly states that Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the Temple and the sheep and the oxen. He drove them out after he had made a scourge of small cords. He also overthrew the tables, and he poured out the money. Ask yourself the question, "What did Jesus need a scourge of cords for?"

This is not difficult to understand unless you have a bias that you are attempting to ratify. I would be happy to assist you in coming to a full understanding of this Scripture.

 

[Guest]

Your earlier post was deceptive in that you spoke of Jesus only driving the oxen and sheep from the temple. The Scripture plainly states that Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the Temple and the sheep and the oxen. He drove them out after he had made a scourge of small cords. He also overthrew the tables, and he poured out the money. Ask yourself the question, "What did Jesus need a scourge of cords for?"

This is not difficult to understand unless you have a bias that you are attempting to ratify. I would be happy to assist you in coming to a full understanding of this Scripture.

If I have any bias, it comes from reading the Scripture. I do not use the Bible to justify what I "want" to believe - but rather allow the Scriptures to shape my beliefs.

(13)The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. (14)And he found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. (15) And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the tmeple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He pured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;(16) and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these thigns away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

The parrell passages are found in Matthew 21:12ff; Mark 11:15-17; and Luke 19:45f - Out of the four accounts - John is the only one that mentions Jesus making a 'scourge of cords' or whip. And John does not even mention that Jesus used it.

While I used the NASB above, the ASB provides a more honest translation to the original Greek: "And he made a scourge of cords, and cast out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen..." This careful reading shows that even if Jesus did use the cord, it was used on the sheep and the oxen to drive them out of the temple.

It would have been impossible for one man to drive out all the money changers with the use of physical force, without receiving retaliation and/or without drawing the attention of the temple guards.

Rather, it was not the physical use of a cord that drove the men out of the temple, but the authority that is in Christ - from His words and looks. It is written that Jesus spoke like no other, He spoke with authority! The whip provides for an outward symbol of that authority - His righteous indignation.

 

[Guest]

Solo - in your post where you refernced an article on Pacifism, it mentions the account of the Roman centurion in Matthew 8:5-13. If you do not mind, I would like to address this passage as well.

First - there was no occassion for Christ to comment on the centurion's profession. Rather, Jesus compares his faith with that of the Jews.

The centurion recognizes the authority that Christ has - but nowhere does this passage suggest that the centurion became a disciple of Christ. But let's assume that he did - would he still be able to follow the orders of the Roman Army and be a disciple of Christ?

However, we do have the words of John the Baptist in Luke 3:14. When asked by soldiers what they were to do now, after being baptized, John tells them to 'do violence to no man." This would have made it impossible for them to carry on as soldiers.

Justin Martyr, around 153a.d wrote: "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have... changed our warlike weapons, our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage."

In an attack on Christians, the philospher Celsus argued that the Empire would be ruined if everyone did as the nonresistance Christians.

Tertullian wrote: "Shall it be held lawful to amke an occupation of the sword, when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword shall perish by the sword? And shall the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law? And shall he apply the chain, and the prison, and the torture, and the punishment, who is not the avenger even of his own wrongs?"

Origen, around the year 250 wrote: "We have come in accordance with the counsels of Jesus to cut own our warlike and arrogant swords of argument into ploughshares, and we convert into sickles the spears we formerly used in fighting, For we no longer take 'sword against a nation', not do we learn 'any more to make war,' having become sons of peace for the sake of Jesus, who is our leader."

Lactantius of Bithynia wrote in the early 4th century: "When God forbids us to kill, he not only prohibits us from open violence... but he warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men. Thus it will be neither lawful for a just man to engage in warfare."

Lastly, Maximillian a young Numidian in 295 was brought before the proconsul of Africe for induction - he refused induction and the uniform saying: "I cannot serve as a soldier; I cannot do evil; I am a Christian." "I shall not perish, but when I shall have forsaken this world my sould shall live with Christ my Lord." - He was put to death for refusing induction, at the age of 21.

 

[Guest]

BUMP - for Lewis W.

 

[Lewis]

Alone said' nowhere did it say that Jesus told them to buy swords to protect themselves. Lots of Scripture' you have to take it for what it is. Swords are used for protection. And God does expect you to defend yourself. God does not expect you to stand up there and take a beat down' topped off with a nice stomping and then your brains bashed out. You are to defend yourself, and your family.

 

[Guest]

Alone said' nowhere did it say that Jesus told them to buy swords to protect themselves. Lots of Scripture' you have to take it for what it is. Swords are used for protection. And God does expect you to defend yourself. God does not expect you to stand up there and take a beat down' topped off with a nice stomping and then your brains bashed out. You are to defend yourself, and your family.

Lewis - perhaps you could share those verses which explain that.

Understand, being a pacifist does not mean being a carpet - however, I believe Christ is very clear in the Sermon on the Mount that we are to turn the other check. Nowhere, does it say that we are to stand there and take it - but neither does it say that we are to return evil for evil - rather, just the opposite.

"Defending" yourself does not require physical violence. Look at the examples of the apostles! Peter was wrong to use the sword when they arrested Jesus, Paul never defended himself, Stephen forgave those who were stoning him.

Trust in the Lord, not guns, fits, or physical violence.

 

[Lewis]

Don't have to. It is common sense' and I serve a common sense God. Now lets be honest' do you think that God wants you to stand there while someone rapes your wife' and you tell them Jesus' is going to get you. Or somedody is beating you to death and you are supposed to let them ? I brought this subject up well over a year ago. And nothing has changed. I tell you what if someone tries to rapes my wife and I catch them' they will be dealt with. What am I to be nice to this guy ?

 

[Guest]

Don't have to. It is common sense' and I serve a common sense God. Now lets be honest' you that God wants you to stand there while someone raps your wife' and you tell them Jesus' is going to get you. Or somedody is beating you to death and you are supposed to let them ? I brought this subject up well over a year ago. And nothing has changed. I tell you what if someone tries to rap my wife and I catch them' they will be dealt with. What am I to be nice to this guy ?

Well, yes - that is true, I suppose you do not 'have' to. But I would think that you would want to to provide Biblical support.

And perhaps you would be so kind to quote me where I said I would or believe that God wants me to "stand there while someone raps (I assume you mean rapes) my wife. Or somebody is beating me to death and I am supposed to let them?"

I believe we are to be a witness. I believe we are to have a ministry of reconcillation. That while we were still enemies of God, He loved us to the point of providing a means to be reconcilled with God - Jesus Christ.

 

[Drew]

I think that this issue is an example of how cultural values can get mixed up with Biblical values.

I see no Scriptural evidence of any "right" to use violence in self-defence. If anything, I think that Jesus advocates a pacifist position.

This is not a simple issue and I am not a hardcore pacifist. However, I suspect that violence should only be used as truly a last resort. And while I suspect, for example, that gun rights advocates would publically agree with this, I think that the "gun culture" in the US (and possibly elsewhere) goes beyond this. I submit that there is a widely belief that one has the "right" to "shoot first and ask questions later" if someone breaks into your house.

And this is where I think we have gone too far. So I would ask readers to consider whether their position on this issue is really informed by the Scriptures or whether cultural values have snuck in unnoticed and are passing themselves off as Scriptural ones. I think that widespread support among evangelical Christians for armed intervention in Iraq is evidence of how Christian culture can be influenced by what are ultimately secular values.

 

[Lewis]

I think that this issue is an example of how cultural values can get mixed up with Biblical values.

I see no Scriptural evidence of any "right" to use violence in self-defence. If anything, I think that Jesus advocates a pacifist position.

This is not a simple issue and I am not a hardcore pacifist. However, I suspect that violence should only be used as truly a last resort. And while I suspect, for example, that gun rights advocates would publically agree with this, I think that the "gun culture" in the US (and possibly elsewhere) goes beyond this. I submit that there is a widely belief that one has the "right" to "shoot first and ask questions later" if someone breaks into your house.

And this is where I think we have gone too far. So I would ask readers to consider whether their position on this issue is really informed by the Scriptures or whether cultural values have snuck in unnoticed and are passing themselves off as Scriptural ones. I think that widespread support among evangelical Christians for armed intervention in Iraq is evidence of how Christian culture can be influenced by what are ultimately secular values.

Drew I hate to say it, but you have surly been misguided. You should look in the Old Testament' and you can't tell me that the moral laws don't hold today because they still do. The sacrificial ones are done away with. But not the moral ones.

 

[Drew]

Drew I hate to say it, but you have surly been misguided. You should look in the Old Testament' and you can't tell me that the moral laws don't hold today because they still do. The sacrificial ones are done away with. But not the moral ones.

I would like to ask a specific question: Do you think that Jesus would approve of you opening fire on someone who breaks into your house at 3 in the morning before you have made reasonable efforts to determine whether that person is factually a threat to you and your family and that other options (such as fleeing out the back door) are not reasonably available to you?

 

[Vic C.]

I would like to ask a specific question: Do you think that Jesus would approve of you opening fire on someone who breaks into your house at 3 in the morning before you have made reasonable efforts to determine whether that person is factually a threat to you and your family and that other options (such as fleeing out the back door) are not reasonably available to you?

Drew, with respect, I have to ask why you WOULDN"T consider someone breaking into your place at 3AM a threat?! :-?

I'm a pacifist too. I'd die before I would renounce my Faith, which is an underlying message throughout Scripture. I will defend family and friend before I would EVER stand by and helplessly watch, say, "My beliefs condemn violence". BAH! 8-)

I will not go down by some street urchin without defending myself, my family or friends.

 

[jgredline]

I'm a pacifist too. I'd die before I would renounce my Faith, which is an underlying message throughout Scripture. I will defend family and friend before I would EVER stand by and helplessly watch, saying, "My beliefs condemn violence". BAH! 8-)

I will not go down by some street urchin without defending myself, my family or friends.

Amen

 

[Drew]

Drew, with respect, I have to ask why you WOULDN"T consider someone breaking into your place at 3AM a threat?! :-?

I'm a pacifist too. I'd die before I would renounce my Faith, which is an underlying message throughout Scripture. I will defend family and friend before I would EVER stand by and helplessly watch, say, "My beliefs condemn violence". BAH! 8-)

I will not go down by some street urchin without defending myself, my family or friends.

It is not at all obvious that someone breaking into your house is a threat. In fact, I would bet that more than 50 % of intruders have no interest at all in harming people in the house - they are probably interested in theft.

I know a guy who awoke to find a stranger in his house. The intruder was a young woman who had just escaped from the clutches of someone who wanted to assault her. In her panic to escape, she broke into my acquaintance's house.

Imagine if he had used a gun on her without first ascertaining the real situation.

There is little doubt in my mind that many American evangelicals have beliefs about the role of violence in self-defence have been heavily influenced by cultural values that have no grounding in the Scriptures.

 

[Vic C.]

No Drew, you are the one assuming "we" would instantly open fire on them. I'm the one assuming they are intruding with the intent of harming me and that is how I would go into the situation. But while your "evaluating the situation" you startle the intruder and BANG!, you're dead. :-? Now explain that to your family who is now in harm's way. Oh wait, you can't... you're dead! 8-)

All kidding aside, I don't have a gun and never plan on owning one. But people do and they have every right to defend their selves.

Now where's a Texan when you need one? :

 

[Atonement]

I go to Calvary Chapel of ABQ. And every Friday night they have self-defence classes. I think one should protect themself if in danger. My $0.02

 

[jgredline]

Keith
I heard that Chip is back over there...If this is so, you guys are blessed..I went to see him a couple of times here when he was in cali...I enjoy his teaching...

 

[Atonement]

Oh Yeah we got Skip back. He's awesome. Raul Riese (don't know if anyone knows him) he's very popular like Chuck Smith.. Anyway he did a crusade here this past weekend, it was a men's ONLY crusade. A car show and a motorcycle show, barbeque etc. It was AWESOME!! Raul and Skip rode up on their Harley's, their bikes are in one word... BAD!!!!!! I took a lot of pictures and had my video camera out : The Church is blessed to have him back. Pastor Skip is the one that paid for my schooling after I got out of Satanism back in the early 90's and it was Pastor Skip that allow me to manage his youth minstry for 2 years here in ABQ. Pastor Skip and I are pretty close. It's cool, I love that man, he has a great heart for God.

 

[jgredline]

I am glad...Hey post up some pics...
Did Raul share about his battle with the devil? Literally...If he did not not, you will soon hear about it...It has to do with his vietnam days...Anyway, did not mean to side track the thread....