O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
TON ETHNON means, simply, the tribes or nations.cj said:
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Blazin Bones
Member
Another none of the above. I think Both doctrines are too extreme in their interpretations. I lean towards Calvin because it has better Biblical support, but I still don't like either side.
C
cuiq
Guest
So I find another interesting thread. Wow if you guys keep going like this I'll never be able to get back to the linux forums I participate in
:D
Anyway I was raised in the Free will thinking (Arminianism if you will), but when I became an adult and began to study for myself, I learned differently. At first I was totally against any teaching against free will, until I begin to read verses that I could not within myself reconcile with what I thought I knew. Here are a just a few:
(KJV)
Ephesians 1 and 2
John 17
Luke 19:20 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. "
John 6:44 ""No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. "
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.
1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
Ezekiel 37 (Dry dead bones can't do anything)
John 11 (can a dead man accept Jesus, without first being provided the ears to hear.)
If Christ came to save the WHOLE world then why does He need to "seek" for the lost.
This following analogy was actually used in one of my bible study classes.
"Salvation is like someone paying off your loan (debt) and all you have to do is acknowledge (accept) that they did."
But this still left me with a question. If Christ paid for the sins of the world and it can't be undone (that is the sacrifice (payment)). Then no one is going to hell whether they accept Him or not. If this were the case Christ would be a liar! All one has to say is if you already paid and you can't undo it then I don't need to worship you and I'll still get into heaven because my debt is paid by you without any intervention from me.
This is what drove me to believe that Christ died for His people as Matt. 1:21 tells us "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
That many (everyone who hears the gospel) are called but few are chosen (those who are saved by God drawing them)
Anyway these are just my thoughts and how God through the Holy Spirit open my heart to understand.
peace V
:D
Anyway I was raised in the Free will thinking (Arminianism if you will), but when I became an adult and began to study for myself, I learned differently. At first I was totally against any teaching against free will, until I begin to read verses that I could not within myself reconcile with what I thought I knew. Here are a just a few:
(KJV)
Ephesians 1 and 2
John 17
Luke 19:20 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. "
John 6:44 ""No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. "
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.
1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
Ezekiel 37 (Dry dead bones can't do anything)
John 11 (can a dead man accept Jesus, without first being provided the ears to hear.)
If Christ came to save the WHOLE world then why does He need to "seek" for the lost.
This following analogy was actually used in one of my bible study classes.
"Salvation is like someone paying off your loan (debt) and all you have to do is acknowledge (accept) that they did."
But this still left me with a question. If Christ paid for the sins of the world and it can't be undone (that is the sacrifice (payment)). Then no one is going to hell whether they accept Him or not. If this were the case Christ would be a liar! All one has to say is if you already paid and you can't undo it then I don't need to worship you and I'll still get into heaven because my debt is paid by you without any intervention from me.
This is what drove me to believe that Christ died for His people as Matt. 1:21 tells us "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
That many (everyone who hears the gospel) are called but few are chosen (those who are saved by God drawing them)
Anyway these are just my thoughts and how God through the Holy Spirit open my heart to understand.
peace V
N
Nocturnal_Principal_X
Guest
I lean very close toward Calvinism (I might even venture to say I’m a five pointer), however; I don’t really concern myself with the theological view point and I like to think of myself as a Biblicist (Of course I am not a scholar but I use it more in the figurative sense and not so literalâ€â€meaning I study the Bible but I’m not a scholar).
I am more concerned with: studying the Bible, growing in my Christian walk, witnessing to others, and trying to serve God. I occasionally like to talk about both theological view points but at this point in my life I am kind of tired of it because this very topic is discussed to excess by minister and Christian studies students.
I am more concerned with: studying the Bible, growing in my Christian walk, witnessing to others, and trying to serve God. I occasionally like to talk about both theological view points but at this point in my life I am kind of tired of it because this very topic is discussed to excess by minister and Christian studies students.
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
I actually don't know - a believe in Christ?
I've looked into Calvinism and although I agree with a lot of their points I cannot get my head around 'limited atonement' and 'total depravity'.
I've looked into Calvinism and although I agree with a lot of their points I cannot get my head around 'limited atonement' and 'total depravity'.
O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
I'm stunned. I have to agree with the points made in this post.cj said:
: It is prefigured quite clearly in the great Messianic song from Isaiah 53
Jesus was given to atone for sin. The Father gave His only Son for the kosmos- the whole of mankind. (John 3:16)
It is man who rejects God, not the other way around. Who is not invited to the wedding supper? Even those on the highways and side roads are compelled to come.
Limited Atonement is filthy lie, a doctrine born from man's need to explain the mystery of iniquity, ie the rejection of God.
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
How can man be totally depraved? Is this even in the bible?
For a start all men have ears...all men can hear (cept' if they're deaf) therefore all men can hear the gospel and all men can have faith by what they hear. All men have the knowledge of good and evil - since Adam and Eve. Therefore men are not TOTALLY depraved at all. They still have a desire for fulfillment. They still have an instinct for survival and all men are able to descern that the need saving.
Limited atonement? Sorry He sent his son to die for the world but only those who accept salvation will be saved. I believe all men are enabled and all men are drawn to the father.
For a start all men have ears...all men can hear (cept' if they're deaf) therefore all men can hear the gospel and all men can have faith by what they hear. All men have the knowledge of good and evil - since Adam and Eve. Therefore men are not TOTALLY depraved at all. They still have a desire for fulfillment. They still have an instinct for survival and all men are able to descern that the need saving.
Limited atonement? Sorry He sent his son to die for the world but only those who accept salvation will be saved. I believe all men are enabled and all men are drawn to the father.
C
cuiq
Guest
Merry Menagerie wrote
Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Another verse where Jesus points out the awful depravity of man's heart in Mark 7:21-22
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, price, foolishness.
This is not literal but spiritual. If you are dead in trespasses and sins how can you hear the Gospel. You must first be made willing. This is why many people are not saved the first time they hear the gospel, sometimes it takes many times. What is the difference between hearing the gospel the first time and when a person becomes saved. God has drawn them and made them willing to hear it.
Ephesians 2:1-5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation [conduct or behavior] in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherein he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened [made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
There are many more verses like these and I would be more than willing to point them out if you like.
In Christ
Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Another verse where Jesus points out the awful depravity of man's heart in Mark 7:21-22
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, price, foolishness.
This is not literal but spiritual. If you are dead in trespasses and sins how can you hear the Gospel. You must first be made willing. This is why many people are not saved the first time they hear the gospel, sometimes it takes many times. What is the difference between hearing the gospel the first time and when a person becomes saved. God has drawn them and made them willing to hear it.
Ephesians 2:1-5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation [conduct or behavior] in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherein he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened [made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
There are many more verses like these and I would be more than willing to point them out if you like.
In Christ
O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
Actually, the arguments against your beloved tradition have been biblical, without a single appeal to tradition.Jason said:
If and when you actually deal with these biblical refutations of your tradition, I shall have a look. Until then, I shall take my leave of you and your dusty feet.
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
cuiq said:
This doesn't mean one is depraved.
This doesn't mean they are depraved. They still have the knowledge of good and evil.
Well Jesus didn't see that as a problem.
no! You must first be preached to.
Yes it is. Sometimes it takes a lot for me to get through to my children too,....but again it doesn't make them totally depraved.
He's drawn them - yes...but he did not make them willing at all. They made the choice to be willing or not.
This verse does not tell me that we are totally depraved. All men are capable of realising that they need saving and that they are dead in their sin...it doesn't take anything other than the gospel to reach them.
Limited Atonement simply teaches that Christ’s atoning work on the cross was not to redeem the whole world but to redeem only those given to the Son before the foundation of the world. Christ’s atonement was powerful enough to redeem any number of individuals, even the whole world, but it is only aimed to redeem those who are chosen by God before the foundation of the world. That means, no matter how hard it is to accept, Jesus did not die for every single person on the cross. It is very clear that Christ died for many (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 20:28, 26:28 ), the church (Ephesians 5:25 ), the sheep (John 10:15 ) , and those who will live for righteousness (1 Peter 2:24 ).
Scriptural Support:
Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Matthew 1:21, 11:25-27, 13:10-15, 44-46, 15:13, 20:28, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.
http://www.gospeloutreach.net/limited_atonement.html
Notes taken from the work of A.W. Pink:
1 "Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17: 24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."
2 "Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Eph. 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded -- compare Job 38:4 etc.
3 "Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out" -- compare Matt. 4:8 and I John 5:19, R. V.
4 "Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Rom. 3: 19, etc.-- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
5 "Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of un-believers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of un-believers which is in view.
6 "Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Rom. 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!
7 "Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12;47; I Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.
The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, 'every one') believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God's "love." "God commendeth His love toward US" -- the saints, Rom. 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth" -- every son, Heb. 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US" -- believers, I John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!
http://grace-for-today.com/awp1.htm
The translation of kosmos for world is correct, it’s the inclusive language that most have trouble with, I hope this helps. Let me use two illustrations to clarify my point.
1. A few months back I was watching CNN to find out what the verdict would be in the Michael Jackson case. While I was watching the broadcast a commentator said something like, ‘the whole world waits to hear the outcome of the trail.’
The word, ‘world’ its obviously didn’t mean every single person in the whole world was literally waiting to hear the verdict, rather, a large portion of the world was waiting. How many in the Austrian outback sitting around a camp fire, or in the remote African villages were waiting? If we use your hermeneutic then we are to believe that every single person in the entire world was waiting.
2. We read in Luke 2 “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.â€Â
Was the whole entire world really taxed? Or was it a large portion of the world? Did the Japanese have to pay a tax, how about natives in North America? Do you see what I mean? The use of inclusive terms can be found in everyday uses. Look at v. 10 where it reads ‘all people.’ Using your hermeneutic, all people means every single person but what about Herod? Did the news bring great joy to him? What about the Pharseses?
I restate: Jesus Christ died to save His people (Matt. 1:21). His people are many (Matt. 20:28; 26:28 ). Jesus died for a certain group, His sheep (John 10:11), the Church of God (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25-27) and bore their sins (Heb. 9:28 ). These people, God’s people or the Church are redeemed ‘out of’ the world (Rev. 5:9).
What I find un-natural is the way in which you use of the kosmos. I'm quoting myself from another post: Propitiation, according to Strongs, is an "appeasing" of God's wrath for sin...the removal of wrath.
Ro 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
We are declared righteous before God due to the propitiation of our sins.
1Jo 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
If 'whole world' means every single person, as I DO NOT believe it does, then ALL meaning ALL have been declared righteous before God. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world then the world will be saved...
As the Jews at the time believed, the 'world' was used to any non-jewish person, when the N.T. speaks about Jesus dying for the 'whole world' this doesn't mean every single human being or everyone would be saved, it includes people from outside the Jewish community and faith.
Since all are not saved then Jesus could not have died for all men.
If all means all in every case then all meaning all are saved. If world means world (every single person) then Jesus died for there sins and if they end up in hell, they are punished for nothing!
Christ died for some of the sins of all men, Christ died for all the sins of some men or Christ died for all the sins of all men? Which is it?
Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (See also 13:20; Isaiah 53:11-12.)
Mark 10:45, in accord with Revelation 5:9,does not say that Jesus came to ransom all men. It says, "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Propitiated sins cannot be punished. Otherwise propitiation loses its meaning, if Christ did die for all and not just His elect then you have people in hell right now with their sins forgiven! Propitiation means the removal of wrath. If Jesus Christ's death removed the wrath of God from the sinner (Jesus died for everyone), that would include the wrath of those who continue to commit sin. If you believe in election as you say, then it's illogical for our Lord to die for the whole world only to elect a few. This approach is very pragmatic but not Reformed.
Did Jesus really die for ALL of mankind? We have to deal with every verse and place each one in context to get the best understanding.
Matt. 1:21 His people
Matt. 20:28 to give his life a ransom for many.
Matt. 26:26 which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (Only believers are called sheep, never the unbeliever. Jesus didn't lay down His life for the unbeliever.)
John 11:50-53
Acts 20:28 purchased the Church with His blood
Eph. 5:25-27
Heb. 2:17; 3:1
Rev. 5:9 ...was slain to redeem a people out of...no mention about all people.
Dealing with universal terms in the Bible is difficult, try this little exersice and read it out loud. (Idea taken from the Amazing Grace DVD.)
We all say all, all the time and don’t mean it as a universal term. In Luke 2:1 we see the ‘...world was taxed...†no it wasn’t. How much did the Chinese pay? Does Scripture lie, no. In context we find the Roman world was taxed. In Luke 2:10 we read ’...I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.’ Really, were the Phrases glad? How about Harod or Pontius Pilate? Did they find great joy in the birth of Christ? See also Col. 1:5-6 ‘...gone out into all the world...’ did Paul literally mean that the Gospel was preached in the Americas? Of course not. The writer is not speaking of the world as mass of people but of a certain group. We also read in John 12:19 ‘...the world has gone after him.’ Did the world, meaning every single person so after him? If I had to stop you from using a universal term when you didn’t mean it as such, I’d have to stop you all the time. No I wouldn’t. Even today when reporters were annoucing the Micheal Jackson verdict we were told by CNN ‘that the whole world was waiting.’ No it wasn’t. They simply mean a large crowd. The is hyperbolic speak, it was common at the time of the writing of the N.T. to use hyperbolic speak. We can find over 600 uses of hyperbolic speak in the Bible. The Jewish mind set didn’t include gentiles or ‘the world’ so often, we find the word ‘world’ refers to those outside the Jewish nation. This of course doesn’t mean that world never means world, rather, we should view it in context and compare it with other verses that are more clear on the topic.
Concerning the unlimited redemptionists' strongest argument, that of the Scriptures, where it speaks of Christ dying for the world it maybe stated that Scripture does not always include all the truth involved in the theme presented at a given place. These verses state that Christ died for an unlimited group, are just that. Just the statement that Christ died for the elect does not prove the point of the limited redemptionists...or does it? No wait, it does. If Christ died with a people in mind, then that would limited the Atonement. According to this logic of the unlimited redemptionists all men everywhere would be saved. Christ's work accomplishes the task of salvation, but they don't end up with a logical conclusion. As well, one might say that Christ restricted His prayers to His people in John 17 and so we can conclude that Jesus died for a certain group of people, His elect and will pray for them and them only. Jesus Christ doesn't pray for the world as we see in the Scriptures. John 3 is a great passage, but we gain great knowledge when Jesus tells us that unless you are born again, you cannot even SEE the kingdom. Lydia in Acts 16 is another example, the Lord opened her heart so she could accept the gift of salvation.
Acts 16
Lydia was a proselytess of the Jewish religion, temple worship, etc. and wasn't able to accept Jesus Christ as God. She suffered from hardness and unbelief as all dead sinners do. Lydia is a prime example of being drawn by the Father: John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Notice our Lord telling us that He will in fact raise them on the last day, if this is the case, the Father doesn't draw everyone...just those who He will raise up on the last day.
To go a little deeper into understanding Acts 16, follow me.
Acts 10:1,2 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."
Notice, Cornelius was understood to be a devote man. Looking at the full chpt. we see the angel said, "He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do." (Acts 10:6) and then latter we read Peter saying "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." (Acts 11:14)
Notice the order of events, as M. Henry writes: He goes to Cornelius. (19-33) His discourse to Cornelius. (34-43) The gifts of the Holy Spirit poured out. (44-48 )
The point of the matter, religion and being devote to that religion doesn't save. It's a mistake to think that being religious will save you, only Jesus Christ can save you. Cornelius still needed to be told "words whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved" he wasn't saved until he heard the Gospel preached...so what happened to his heart? The Lord openned it as He did with Lydia.
Hope this helps.
Scriptural Support:
Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Matthew 1:21, 11:25-27, 13:10-15, 44-46, 15:13, 20:28, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.
http://www.gospeloutreach.net/limited_atonement.html
Notes taken from the work of A.W. Pink:
1 "Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17: 24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."
2 "Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Eph. 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded -- compare Job 38:4 etc.
3 "Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out" -- compare Matt. 4:8 and I John 5:19, R. V.
4 "Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Rom. 3: 19, etc.-- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
5 "Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of un-believers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of un-believers which is in view.
6 "Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Rom. 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!
7 "Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12;47; I Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.
The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, 'every one') believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God's "love." "God commendeth His love toward US" -- the saints, Rom. 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth" -- every son, Heb. 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US" -- believers, I John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!
http://grace-for-today.com/awp1.htm
The translation of kosmos for world is correct, it’s the inclusive language that most have trouble with, I hope this helps. Let me use two illustrations to clarify my point.
1. A few months back I was watching CNN to find out what the verdict would be in the Michael Jackson case. While I was watching the broadcast a commentator said something like, ‘the whole world waits to hear the outcome of the trail.’
The word, ‘world’ its obviously didn’t mean every single person in the whole world was literally waiting to hear the verdict, rather, a large portion of the world was waiting. How many in the Austrian outback sitting around a camp fire, or in the remote African villages were waiting? If we use your hermeneutic then we are to believe that every single person in the entire world was waiting.
2. We read in Luke 2 “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.â€Â
Was the whole entire world really taxed? Or was it a large portion of the world? Did the Japanese have to pay a tax, how about natives in North America? Do you see what I mean? The use of inclusive terms can be found in everyday uses. Look at v. 10 where it reads ‘all people.’ Using your hermeneutic, all people means every single person but what about Herod? Did the news bring great joy to him? What about the Pharseses?
I restate: Jesus Christ died to save His people (Matt. 1:21). His people are many (Matt. 20:28; 26:28 ). Jesus died for a certain group, His sheep (John 10:11), the Church of God (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25-27) and bore their sins (Heb. 9:28 ). These people, God’s people or the Church are redeemed ‘out of’ the world (Rev. 5:9).
What I find un-natural is the way in which you use of the kosmos. I'm quoting myself from another post: Propitiation, according to Strongs, is an "appeasing" of God's wrath for sin...the removal of wrath.
Ro 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
We are declared righteous before God due to the propitiation of our sins.
1Jo 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
If 'whole world' means every single person, as I DO NOT believe it does, then ALL meaning ALL have been declared righteous before God. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world then the world will be saved...
As the Jews at the time believed, the 'world' was used to any non-jewish person, when the N.T. speaks about Jesus dying for the 'whole world' this doesn't mean every single human being or everyone would be saved, it includes people from outside the Jewish community and faith.
Since all are not saved then Jesus could not have died for all men.
If all means all in every case then all meaning all are saved. If world means world (every single person) then Jesus died for there sins and if they end up in hell, they are punished for nothing!
Christ died for some of the sins of all men, Christ died for all the sins of some men or Christ died for all the sins of all men? Which is it?
Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (See also 13:20; Isaiah 53:11-12.)
Mark 10:45, in accord with Revelation 5:9,does not say that Jesus came to ransom all men. It says, "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Propitiated sins cannot be punished. Otherwise propitiation loses its meaning, if Christ did die for all and not just His elect then you have people in hell right now with their sins forgiven! Propitiation means the removal of wrath. If Jesus Christ's death removed the wrath of God from the sinner (Jesus died for everyone), that would include the wrath of those who continue to commit sin. If you believe in election as you say, then it's illogical for our Lord to die for the whole world only to elect a few. This approach is very pragmatic but not Reformed.
Did Jesus really die for ALL of mankind? We have to deal with every verse and place each one in context to get the best understanding.
Matt. 1:21 His people
Matt. 20:28 to give his life a ransom for many.
Matt. 26:26 which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (Only believers are called sheep, never the unbeliever. Jesus didn't lay down His life for the unbeliever.)
John 11:50-53
Acts 20:28 purchased the Church with His blood
Eph. 5:25-27
Heb. 2:17; 3:1
Rev. 5:9 ...was slain to redeem a people out of...no mention about all people.
Dealing with universal terms in the Bible is difficult, try this little exersice and read it out loud. (Idea taken from the Amazing Grace DVD.)
We all say all, all the time and don’t mean it as a universal term. In Luke 2:1 we see the ‘...world was taxed...†no it wasn’t. How much did the Chinese pay? Does Scripture lie, no. In context we find the Roman world was taxed. In Luke 2:10 we read ’...I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.’ Really, were the Phrases glad? How about Harod or Pontius Pilate? Did they find great joy in the birth of Christ? See also Col. 1:5-6 ‘...gone out into all the world...’ did Paul literally mean that the Gospel was preached in the Americas? Of course not. The writer is not speaking of the world as mass of people but of a certain group. We also read in John 12:19 ‘...the world has gone after him.’ Did the world, meaning every single person so after him? If I had to stop you from using a universal term when you didn’t mean it as such, I’d have to stop you all the time. No I wouldn’t. Even today when reporters were annoucing the Micheal Jackson verdict we were told by CNN ‘that the whole world was waiting.’ No it wasn’t. They simply mean a large crowd. The is hyperbolic speak, it was common at the time of the writing of the N.T. to use hyperbolic speak. We can find over 600 uses of hyperbolic speak in the Bible. The Jewish mind set didn’t include gentiles or ‘the world’ so often, we find the word ‘world’ refers to those outside the Jewish nation. This of course doesn’t mean that world never means world, rather, we should view it in context and compare it with other verses that are more clear on the topic.
Concerning the unlimited redemptionists' strongest argument, that of the Scriptures, where it speaks of Christ dying for the world it maybe stated that Scripture does not always include all the truth involved in the theme presented at a given place. These verses state that Christ died for an unlimited group, are just that. Just the statement that Christ died for the elect does not prove the point of the limited redemptionists...or does it? No wait, it does. If Christ died with a people in mind, then that would limited the Atonement. According to this logic of the unlimited redemptionists all men everywhere would be saved. Christ's work accomplishes the task of salvation, but they don't end up with a logical conclusion. As well, one might say that Christ restricted His prayers to His people in John 17 and so we can conclude that Jesus died for a certain group of people, His elect and will pray for them and them only. Jesus Christ doesn't pray for the world as we see in the Scriptures. John 3 is a great passage, but we gain great knowledge when Jesus tells us that unless you are born again, you cannot even SEE the kingdom. Lydia in Acts 16 is another example, the Lord opened her heart so she could accept the gift of salvation.
Acts 16
Lydia was a proselytess of the Jewish religion, temple worship, etc. and wasn't able to accept Jesus Christ as God. She suffered from hardness and unbelief as all dead sinners do. Lydia is a prime example of being drawn by the Father: John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Notice our Lord telling us that He will in fact raise them on the last day, if this is the case, the Father doesn't draw everyone...just those who He will raise up on the last day.
To go a little deeper into understanding Acts 16, follow me.
Acts 10:1,2 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."
Notice, Cornelius was understood to be a devote man. Looking at the full chpt. we see the angel said, "He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do." (Acts 10:6) and then latter we read Peter saying "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." (Acts 11:14)
Notice the order of events, as M. Henry writes: He goes to Cornelius. (19-33) His discourse to Cornelius. (34-43) The gifts of the Holy Spirit poured out. (44-48 )
The point of the matter, religion and being devote to that religion doesn't save. It's a mistake to think that being religious will save you, only Jesus Christ can save you. Cornelius still needed to be told "words whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved" he wasn't saved until he heard the Gospel preached...so what happened to his heart? The Lord openned it as He did with Lydia.
Hope this helps.
Orthodox Christian said:
Man, are you lost! What is the reason you cannot understand? Because you are not of God...John 6. All of my posts contain logical conclusions draw from the only inerrant source, the BIBLE!
It's best if you stick to your 'herd' on this one, Scripture isn't your strong point.
jason
O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
Biblical Orthodoxy said:
Man, are you lost! What is the reason you cannot understand? Because you are not of God...John 6. All of my posts contain logical conclusions draw from the only inerrant source, the BIBLE!
It's best if you stick to your 'herd' on this one, Scripture isn't your strong point.
jason[/quote:b7eea]
Put your money where your personal attacks are, Jason. Don't just brag of scriptural acumen: bring it strong or go home.
God will decide whether I am of Him, Jason, and I'm quite convinced that neither you nor I am He.
N
Nocturnal_Principal_X
Guest
It is not necessary to personally attack another member. Such actions are not Christian, constructive, or in any way shape or form edify or glorifying to God.Biblical Orthodoxy said:
Try to state your beliefs and disagreements in a more loving manor or I will have to lock this topic. By the way this goes for everyone, not just Biblical Orthodoxy.
Lets try, as Christians, to display Christian love ok.
It is not necessary to personally attack another member. Such actions are not Christian, constructive, or in any way shape or form edify or glorifying to God.Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
Try to state your beliefs and disagreements in a more loving manor or I will have to lock this topic. By the way this goes for everyone, not just Biblical Orthodoxy.
Lets try, as Christians, to display Christian love ok.[/quote:f81f4]
Give me a break, if you mod's did your job I wouldn't get so many emails about how the 'o'rthodox are acting on this forum. Did you notice very few people will exchange posts with them because of the way they treat bible believers? I've mentioned it to Judy already. Feel free to lock the thread, I'm off for the next few weeks.
:wink:
O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
It is not necessary to personally attack another member. Such actions are not Christian, constructive, or in any way shape or form edify or glorifying to God.Biblical Orthodoxy said:
Try to state your beliefs and disagreements in a more loving manor or I will have to lock this topic. By the way this goes for everyone, not just Biblical Orthodoxy.
Lets try, as Christians, to display Christian love ok.[/quote:467dd]
Give me a break, if you mod's did your job I wouldn't get so many emails about how the 'o'rthodox are acting on this forum. Did you notice very few people will exchange posts with them because of the way they treat bible believers? I've mentioned it to Judy already. Feel free to lock the thread, I'm off for the next few weeks.
:wink:[/quote:467dd]
In fairness, there has been contention on both sides of the aisle. The moderators have done their job, and we on our side- the Catholics and Orthodox, who are also believe what is written in the scriptures- are attempting to confront issues square on, without rancor.
So, I would suggest, are some key people on the Evangelical side. I give as witness to this aggreable disagreement in the dialogue between myself and Solo. Many other recent examples abound.
As I said, excesses and abuse have happened on both sides. This is no justification for further abusive behavior, in my opinion, nor is it an excuse to duck direct questions. Further, direct challenges to specific Evangelical doctrines ought to be engaged and a biblical and reasoned response given.
Perhaps if due care and diligence is exercised, we will all learn something from each other, and about ourselves. An unexamined faith is no faith at all- it is simply blind superstition.