Calvinism: A Denial of God's Judgments

[GodsGrace]

Under the Old Covenant people were justified and saved by faith in God's promise of a savior, Romans 4:1-5.

Right.
Exactly the same as in the NC.

So what's the difference? (if faith and grace are what saves).

 

[Robert Pate]

Right.
Exactly the same as in the NC.

So what's the difference? (if faith and grace are what saves).

Nothing has changed. We are still justified by faith, just like Abraham and the rest of the Patriarchs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing has changed. We are still justified by faith, just like Abraham and the rest of the Patriarchs.

Well, there's a HUGE difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.
But if you say nothing has changed...
so be it.

 

[Robert Pate]

Well, there's a HUGE difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.
But if you say nothing has changed...
so be it.

Yes, there is a huge difference the Mosiac law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Which means that, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, there is a huge difference the Mosiac law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Which means that, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

No Covenant has been abolished.
And the just always lived by faith.
Good night RP.

 

[Free]

Christianity is not a religion. Christianity is about faith in Christ and his Gospel. Religion is about laws, works, piety, etc. it is the religion of man and is under the judgment of God,

Christianity is, by pretty much every definition, a religion. I don't understand why certain sects within Christianity continue to make up their own definition of religion to then conclude that Christianity isn't a religion. It's circular reasoning.

 

[Robert Pate]

No Covenant has been abolished.
And the just always lived by faith.
Good night RP.

Paul says that the Old Covenant of law and religion has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. The Old Covenant has passed away, Hebrews 8:13.

Do you have a Bible?

 

[Robert Pate]

Christianity is, by pretty much every definition, a religion. I don't understand why certain sects within Christianity continue to make up their own definition of religion to then conclude that Christianity isn't a religion. It's circular reasoning.

Christianity as described in the New Testament is about faith in Christ and his Gospel.
Religion is about man trying to please God by his works and obedience to the law.

 

[Free]

Christianity as described in the New Testament is about faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Yes. Christianity is a religion that has as a part of its beliefs, that one must have faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Religion is about man trying to please God by his works and obedience to the law.

This what I mean. This is circular reasoning based on a definition of religion made up by certain groups within Christianity.

Here is Merriam-Webster’s first definition of religion:

: a personal set or institutionalizedsystem of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

That is Christianity. You can take pretty much any sociologically accepted definition and see that Christianity fits. It does Christianity no favours when in discussion with unbelievers, Christians deny that Christianity is a religion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul says that the Old Covenant of law and religion has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. The Old Covenant has passed away, Hebrews 8:13.

Do you have a Bible?

I taught the covenants.

Is there anything left from the "old" covenant?

If so, it hasn't been abolished.

 

[Robert Pate]

I taught the covenants.

Is there anything left from the "old" covenant?

If so, it hasn't been abolished.

Nothing left, it is a whole new ball game in which, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes. Christianity is a religion that has as a part of its beliefs, that one must have faith in Christ and his Gospel.


This what I mean. This is circular reasoning based on a definition of religion made up by certain groups within Christianity.

Here is Merriam-Webster’s first definition of religion:

: a personal set or institutionalizedsystem of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

That is Christianity. You can take pretty much any sociologically accepted definition and see that Christianity fits. It does Christianity no favours when in discussion with unbelievers, Christians deny that Christianity is a religion.

Whatever you want to call it, it is not the same as organized religion and is not accepted as truth. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion.

 

[Free]

Whatever you want to call it, it is not the same as organized religion and is not accepted as truth. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion.

Christianity certainly is an organized religion, according to the definition I provided, and that isn't what Jesus was talking about. He simply said "the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few (Matt 7:14, ESV). It would be reading into the text to make it say that Jesus was talking about organized religion, when all he said was "the way." There are those, likely quite a number, who claim to be Christian and attend a Christian church regularly, but are not saved because they haven't gone through the gate.

Paul talks about "self-made religion" in Col 2:23, and while he never mentions religion again, it stands to reason that he is contrasting that self-made religion with all the rules and commands for believers that follow in chapters 3 and 4. In other words, consistent with the definition of religion that I gave, Paul is giving a "set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices."

And James, in 1:26-27, differentiates between worthless and "pure and undefiled" religion. Christianity, properly understood and practiced, is pure and undefiled religion. The point is, there is good religion and there is Bad Religion ?, and Christianity is the good, true religion.

 

[Robert Pate]

Christianity certainly is an organized religion, according to the definition I provided, and that isn't what Jesus was talking about. He simply said "the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few (Matt 7:14, ESV). It would be reading into the text to make it say that Jesus was talking about organized religion, when all he said was "the way." There are those, likely quite a number, who claim to be Christian and attend a Christian church regularly, but are not saved because they haven't gone through the gate.

Paul talks about "self-made religion" in Col 2:23, and while he never mentions religion again, it stands to reason that he is contrasting that self-made religion with all the rules and commands for believers that follow in chapters 3 and 4. In other words, consistent with the definition of religion that I gave, Paul is giving a "set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices."

And James, in 1:26-27, differentiates between worthless and "pure and undefiled" religion. Christianity, properly understood and practiced, is pure and undefiled religion. The point is, there is good religion and there is Bad Religion ?, and Christianity is the good, true religion.

There are no institutionalized, rules or commands for believers, because, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Pharisees need organized religion, not Christians. Christians are led by the Holy Spirit, not rules, laws or religion.

 

[jasonc]

There are no institutionalized, rules or commands for believers, because, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Pharisees need organized religion, not Christians. Christians are led by the Holy Spirit, not rules, laws or religion.

Great I can murder ,commit idolatry and sin all I want !

 

[Free]

There are no institutionalized, rules or commands for believers, because, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Pharisees need organized religion, not Christians. Christians are led by the Holy Spirit, not rules, laws or religion.

I have given many, and there are many in Col 3 and 4. They're almost all rules and commands for proper Christian living. Christians are led by the Holy Spirit through the written Word, which includes numerous rules and commands for Christian living, and he also enables us to live them. It has nothing to do with living by faith; our faith doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing left, it is a whole new ball game in which, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

Oh.
You DID state that those of the OT also lived by faith.

So how is it a whole new ball game??

But, for me, this conversation is ended.

 

[Robert Pate]

Oh.
You DID state that those of the OT also lived by faith.

So how is it a whole new ball game??

But, for me, this conversation is ended.

Under the Old Covenant there were rules, laws and religion. They have been abolished; Jesus nailed them to his cross, Colossians 2:14. So that now, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Robert Pate]

I have given many, and there are many in Col 3 and 4. They're almost all rules and commands for proper Christian living. Christians are led by the Holy Spirit through the written Word, which includes numerous rules and commands for Christian living, and he also enables us to live them. It has nothing to do with living by faith; our faith doesn't exist in a vacuum.

If you need rules, laws and religion it may be that you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Robert Pate]

Great I can murder ,commit idolatry and sin all I want !

Not if you are led by the Holy Spirit. The law is not for Christians, it's for the lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.