Calvinism: A Denial of God's Judgments

[jasonc]

Not if you are led by the Holy Spirit. The law is not for Christians, it's for the lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

You really miss frees point

Murder ,a law given by God since oh say the death of Abel .a rule ,and here you are telling me that if was lead by Holy Ghost He wouldn't tell or lead me up break any of His Holy Commandments.

The rules Free mentions are there to verify Yes God did actually say it,we are to obey it .

Go a be baptized,Go and make disciples and baptize them in the Name of the Father ,the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Oh and if you do sin ,you have an arbiter who will cleanse you .if you say you don't have any sin you are not One of His.

It ,the Bible also clearly says if you practice the list of Galatians 5 you might not be in heaven .

Sounds like a measure to check our hearts,to see if we are actually saved and also things God wants us to do.

Obey your elders as they Must answer to God to give account for your soul.
,Take account of your soul when you take communion ,do so with a Solomn reference lest ye fall asleep .Renew your mind ,

How on earth do you think Free says you follow said rules to be saved .?

It's written in the Greek imperative in a militaristic form.that the Romans and Greeks understand to be as the leader ordering his troops

Orders ,equals rules .

 

[GodsGrace]

Under the Old Covenant there were rules, laws and religion. They have been abolished; Jesus nailed them to his cross, Colossians 2:14. So that now, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

See post 41.

Jesus said He did not come to abolish...
Not one dot will be removed from the law...
And we must obey it More than the pharisees.
Matthew 5.

Doesn't sound like it was abolished.
And again, no covenant abolishes the previous one. Google it.

 

[Robert Pate]

See post 41.

Jesus said He did not come to abolish...
Not one dot will be removed from the law...
And we must obey it More than the pharisees.
Matthew 5.

Doesn't sound like it was abolished.
And again, no covenant abolishes the previous one. Google it.

This is what Paul said about the law.

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man (Christians) but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and the profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for homosexuals, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be anything that is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

If any of the above fits you, then the law is for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what Paul said about the law.

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man (Christians) but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and the profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for homosexuals, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be anything that is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

If any of the above fits you, then the law is for you.

Paul was quite a bit away from when the theology of the covenants was assembled and added to the study of theology.

So I won't be commenting on 1 Timothy 1:9-10 because we're not speaking about THE LAW here,
I'm speaking about THE COVENANTS.

But, of course, the law is still functional too.

Of course, we'd have to explain what the LAW is before continuing.
But this was not my intent...it's YOU who keeps bringing it up.

 

[Free]

If you need rules, laws and religion it may be that you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

I most certainly am indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It's a very notable fact that you have not once even attempted to address the very obvious and numerous rules and commands for believers that I have posted.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Col 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
Col 3:21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
Col 3:22 Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
Col 3:23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality. (ESV)

How many rules or commands for believers do you count there? I count about 25.

How about these:

1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (ESV)

You are essentially calling Paul a liar, since the Lord doesn't give commands to believers. Either that or Paul misunderstood what it meant to be an Apostle and is way out of line.

2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.
2Th 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
Warning Against Idleness
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. (ESV)

Paul clearly thinks it appropriate that he gives commands for believers to follow.

1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things. (ESV)

1Ti 5:7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach.

Paul commanding Timothy to command others.

Phm 1:8 Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, (ESV)

As Paul states, he could have made this a command if he wanted, because he has the authority to do so, but he preferred to appeal instead.

I really don't even know how you can argue against the very clear fact that there are numerous rules and commands for proper Christian living, which were all inspired by the Holy Spirit for our benefit, and through which he continues to guide and teach us, enabling us to follow what we're told.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I need them. It has everything to do with believing and following the entire Bible, with the help of the Holy Spirit who inspired all those rules and commands for believers.

 

[Robert Pate]

Paul was quite a bit away from when the theology of the covenants was assembled and added to the study of theology.

So I won't be commenting on 1 Timothy 1:9-10 because we're not speaking about THE LAW here,
I'm speaking about THE COVENANTS.

But, of course, the law is still functional too.

Of course, we'd have to explain what the LAW is before continuing.
But this was not my intent...it's YOU who keeps bringing it up.

The Old Covenant was a Covenant of law that was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

Under the New Covenant there are no laws and is why the just shall live by faith, Romans 1:17.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Old Covenant was a Covenant of law that was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

Under the New Covenant there are no laws and is why the just shall live by faith, Romans 1:17.

OK
This is sounding like a broken record.
I do wonder why it took over 3 years for Jesus to not teach any laws and got Himself killed over it.

 

[Robert Pate]

You really miss frees point

Murder ,a law given by God since oh say the death of Abel .a rule ,and here you are telling me that if was lead by Holy Ghost He wouldn't tell or lead me up break any of His Holy Commandments.

The rules Free mentions are there to verify Yes God did actually say it,we are to obey it .

Go a be baptized,Go and make disciples and baptize them in the Name of the Father ,the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Oh and if you do sin ,you have an arbiter who will cleanse you .if you say you don't have any sin you are not One of His.

It ,the Bible also clearly says if you practice the list of Galatians 5 you might not be in heaven .

Sounds like a measure to check our hearts,to see if we are actually saved and also things God wants us to do.

Obey your elders as they Must answer to God to give account for your soul.
,Take account of your soul when you take communion ,do so with a Solomn reference lest ye fall asleep .Renew your mind ,

How on earth do you think Free says you follow said rules to be saved .?

It's written in the Greek imperative in a militaristic form.that the Romans and Greeks understand to be as the leader ordering his troops

Orders ,equals rules .

The law does not help prevent sin, if anything the law promotes sin.

"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence (Lust) For without the law sin was dead" Romans 7:8.

This is why Jesus abolished the law by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. We need to be dead to the law and alive to Christ, Romans 6:11.

 

[Robert Pate]

OK
This is sounding like a broken record.
I do wonder why it took over 3 years for Jesus to not teach any laws and got Himself killed over it.

Jesus was crucified by the Jews because he made himself equal with God.

 

[Robert Pate]

I most certainly am indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It's a very notable fact that you have not once even attempted to address the very obvious and numerous rules and commands for believers that I have posted.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Col 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
Col 3:21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
Col 3:22 Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
Col 3:23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality. (ESV)

How many rules or commands for believers do you count there? I count about 25.

How about these:

1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (ESV)

You are essentially calling Paul a liar, since the Lord doesn't give commands to believers. Either that or Paul misunderstood what it meant to be an Apostle and is way out of line.

2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.
2Th 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
Warning Against Idleness
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. (ESV)

Paul clearly thinks it appropriate that he gives commands for believers to follow.

1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things. (ESV)

1Ti 5:7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach.

Paul commanding Timothy to command others.

Phm 1:8 Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, (ESV)

As Paul states, he could have made this a command if he wanted, because he has the authority to do so, but he preferred to appeal instead.

I really don't even know how you can argue against the very clear fact that there are numerous rules and commands for proper Christian living, which were all inspired by the Holy Spirit for our benefit, and through which he continues to guide and teach us, enabling us to follow what we're told.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I need them. It has everything to do with believing and following the entire Bible, with the help of the Holy Spirit who inspired all those rules and commands for believers.

Paul preached both the law and the Gospel. The Gospel is for Christians where the law is more for unbelievers.

Under the New Covenant Christians don't live by laws and rules, instead they live by faith, Romans 1:17.

To be under the law or subject to it is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. Worse yet, to be under the law is to be under God's wrath, Romans 4:15.

 

[jasonc]

The law does not help prevent sin, if anything the law promotes sin.

"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence (Lust) For without the law sin was dead" Romans 7:8.

This is why Jesus abolished the law by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. We need to be dead to the law and alive to Christ, Romans 6:11.

He made murder ok ,he made all manner of sin ok?

You really have no right to even teach that idea the way you express it is not even wrong .

Free nor wondering or myself has suggested obedience to any command is for salvation but evidence of it and to check our hearts


If I lie and we all do then the Lord reminds me in His word that sin is wrong .

That's all the command are for .

 

[Robert Pate]

He made murder ok ,he made all manner of sin ok?

You really have no right to even teach that idea the way you express it is not even wrong .

Free nor wondering or myself has suggested obedience to any command is for salvation but evidence of it and to check our hearts


If I lie and we all do then the Lord reminds me in His word that sin is wrong .

That's all the command are for .

Christians are led by the Holy Spirit. Pharisees are led by the law. It didn't work for the Pharisees, and it is not going to work for you. To be under the law or subject to it is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

 

[jasonc]

Christians are led by the Holy Spirit. Pharisees are led by the law. It didn't work for the Pharisees, and it is not going to work for you. To be under the law or subject to it is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

Right and you don't see that the Bible is written By God with commands he led using Paul .

Forsake not assembling with each other .that's a command to gather to worship .


How would I ever know that ,by listening to a voice in my head or reading the Bible ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was crucified by the Jews because he made himself equal with God.

Oh.
And I thought it was just the excuse they used to kill Him.

You make very dangerous statements.

What does it mean to live by faith?

 

[Free]

Paul preached both the law and the Gospel. The Gospel is for Christians where the law is more for unbelievers.

Under the New Covenant Christians don't live by laws and rules, instead they live by faith, Romans 1:17.

No, Paul preached the gospel. All the rules and commands I just listed are for believers only.

To be under the law or subject to it is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. Worse yet, to be under the law is to be under God's wrath, Romans 4:15.

And, as I've pointed out several times before, you are here once again employing the fallacy of equivocation. You continually use a specific definition of law--the law of Moses--and apply it to rules and commands for believers. What this ignores is that no one can be justified under the law of Moses, but one is justified under the new covenant.

However, under the new covenant Christians still struggle with sin, the flesh, and temptation, so God has graciously provided many rules and commands for believers to show how we ought to live, so that we grow in our faith and in holiness. Just as the Holy Spirit inspired all those rules and commands for believers, he also helps us to live them out; we couldn't do it without him.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, Paul preached the gospel. All the rules and commands I just listed are for believers only.


And, as I've pointed out several times before, you are here once again employing the fallacy of equivocation. You continually use a specific definition of law--the law of Moses--and apply it to rules and commands for believers. What this ignores is that no one can be justified under the law of Moses, but one is justified under the new covenant.

However, under the new covenant Christians still struggle with sin, the flesh, and temptation, so God has graciously provided many rules and commands for believers to show how we ought to live, so that we grow in our faith and in holiness. Just as the Holy Spirit inspired all those rules and commands for believers, he also helps us to live them out; we couldn't do it without him.

The Holy Spirit is the difference between the OC and the NC.

Also, yes, we are not, nor could we or should we, follow the Law of Moses.

But, as you've stated, we are certainly obligated to follow the Law of Christ or the Commands of Christ -
or at the least the 10 Commandments, which were not abolished.

I fail to understand why some are so fearful of the commands...

 

[Robert Pate]

The reason that Christians are not under the law or subject to it is because, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4. If Christ is the end of the law, then why are you living by it and observing it. Perhaps this is why some are under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

 

[Free]

The reason that Christians are not under the law or subject to it is because, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4. If Christ is the end of the law, then why are you living by it and observing it. Perhaps this is why some are under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

No one is arguing to at we are under the law, so there is really no point in going on about it.

 

[Robert Pate]

No one is arguing to at we are under the law, so there is really no point in going on about it.

In post #55 you said, "God has provided laws and commandments to show believers how they should live".

That is contrary to what Paul says about living by laws, rules and commandments. Galatians 3:10, Romans 4:15, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:8. Romans 6:15. Plus many other scriptures. Christians are not led by laws, rules or religion, they are led by the Holy Spirit. Pharisees are the ones that need laws.

 

[Free]

In post #55 you said, "God has provided laws and commandments to show believers how they should live".

That is contrary to what Paul says about living by laws, rules and commandments. Galatians 3:10, Romans 4:15, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:8. Romans 6:15. Plus many other scriptures.

Again, that is the fallacy of equivocation. Each of those verses is speaking of the law of Moses, with two being specifically about justification "by works of the law." As I said, no one is arguing to at we are justified by works of the law, so there is no point in going on about it.

Christians are not led by laws, rules or religion, they are led by the Holy Spirit. Pharisees are the ones that need laws.

Christians are not justified by the law of Moses, but the Holy Spirit leads us by the very rules and commands for believers that he inspired.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (ESV)