D
Dave Slayer
Guest
Can a believer stop sinning alltogether? Some believe that once we are saved, it is possible that we will never sin again. But is it true? is it Biblical?
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F
follower of Christ
Guest
Maybe if he pokes out his eyes, lops off his hands and feet and duck tapes up his mouth.Dave Slayer said:
Course theres always those sins of the heart to consider. I think only a lobotomy or death will remedy those ;)
Nick
Member
The Bible says that we are all unperfect and that we all will sin. That is the case in this world, whether we are saved or not. (in heaven is a different story).Dave Slayer said:
What happens when we are saved is Jesus takes the punishment for our sins, and so in the Father's eyes we are sinless. But in fact we are not sinless.
But if you are a believer, then you should, in your heart, want to stop sinning, and try to stop sinning.
I'll come back later with verses, but I don't think there'll be any disagreement here.
Armor of God
Member
Fembot said:
I'll take it one step further and say it is impossible. As long as we are in our fallen condition, it will always happen to one degree or another. The curse of sin on people isn't removed until after the devil is cast in the lake of fire and the new Heaven's and Earth are created.
I use this analogy when talking about sin in the believer's life. When we are unsaved and lost it's like driving a car on the expressway with no lights or guard rails to guide our path. When we crash, we crash hard and the results can be disastrous. When we become a born again believer the light shines on our path, we have lane markers, and God puts up guard rails along the road of life all to keep us on the right course. Sure, we will drift off course from time to time but when we are operating under His direction, we do not crash nearly as bad and the right course is easy to find again.
That is the difference between sinning as an unbeliever and sinning as a believer. The frequency of sin, severity of sin, and ability to recover from sin all become easier to the believer because we are in his will and want to be obedient. Our body is His holy temple and we should work hard not to smash it up! If we do, however, God's body shop is open 24/7 and all it takes is a call to Him of repentance.
The best area in scripture about sin in the believers life is Romans 6-11. Paul addresses the topic very thoroughly in those sections.
ProphetMark
Member
Dave Slayer said:
Yes. See Romans chapter 6, and Galatians 5 v 16.
If it's not possible to become a christian and have the Holy Spirit living in you when you're, say, 7, and stop sinning by the time you're 67, what does that say about the power of the Holy Spirit living in you?
F
follower of Christ
Guest
I think it says we agree with Gods word that if anyone claims to have no sin that the truth is not in him..ProphetMark said:
Personally the whole idea of self deception doesnt make me feel very good.
I think that we sin LESS and less over time as we grow closer to the Lord, but being beyond sin in this lifetime...thats nothing that Ive seen scripture teach.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Romans 6 teaches us what our state is in relation to sin and that nature within us and what we ought to do. It does not teach us that we become incapable of sinning.ProphetMark said:
Romans 7 shows a VERY clear picture of a man who now has both natures about him and it is a war within him.
Romans 8 early on shows that while we walk in the Spirit that we are not condemned because of this war and our struggling against our sinful nature.
I hate the chapter breaks, btw, they can be VERY deceiving.
Which goes hand in hand with many other scriptures that show the same intent.
And *IF* Paul were saying what you seem to think then why even bother saying it ?
Why TELL us not to sin if we can be beyond sin ?
Telling us not to sin is showing us that we are CAPABLE of sin. I see no age limits given.
Why have Jesus come and die FOR our sin *IF* all that had to happen was to give us the Spirit and we could be beyond sin ?
Sometimes I think that we actually believe that only the big things WE believe are 'sin' ARE sin.
It doesnt dawn on us that we commit things that are an offense to God that WE never even know about.
"sin" means literally to 'miss the mark'.
It doesnt always have to be some horrible thing like murder.
EVERY time we 'miss the mark' we 'sin' and Christs blood is applied to that 'missing the mark'.
Im VERY certain that we 'miss the mark' in MANY things that WE never even realize in these lives. Even well after the age of 67.
Standing in a desert. Lost.
Parched with thirst. Broken.
Can we hear the cry of the cattle as they die?
Let the flood come.
Let the hidden waters BURST forth!
What have we to fear? Is not the bow in the sky to this very day?
Can we not hear the song?
Have we traveled so far to only come to that same mountain again?
That mountain. So mighty. Where is my mustard seed faith, in my pocket?
Don't put that seed in your mouth and speak lip-service to the Promise.
We stand now at an archery range. Our instructor is ancient and as we listen to his admonishments we become very steady in our aim. Our instructor is old school. His calm and quiet confidence has spoken to our jittery nerves. No need to hold our breath as we draw the arrow in a single smooth motion, notch it, and with our eyes fixed on the target we let fly. Our prayer is heard. Answered. We hit the mark.
Did our instructor teach us, "It is impossible to hit the mark, harumph! Don't even try this, I tried once and shot myself in the foot,"? I am not saying that I've apprehended but only that we should run the race as those who who may obtain. When aiming that arrow, should we aim to deliberately MISS? What is mark then? What is our goal as we run the race? Is not the mark the center of the bulls eye? Is not the goal as we run, tossing aside anything that clings to us, - is not the goal to cross the finish line?
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: (1Co 9:24-26)
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake (Heb 12:18-21)
I agree with Moshe, "Would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!" (Num 11:29) It is not by strength, not by might. It is only by His Spirit that we, His arrows, can hit the mark that He set for us.
Why are we chastised of the Lord? What happened to the children of Israel (of whom we are a part) when they were chastised? If we have fallen back shall we then forget?
~Sparrow
Parched with thirst. Broken.
Can we hear the cry of the cattle as they die?
Let the flood come.
Let the hidden waters BURST forth!
What have we to fear? Is not the bow in the sky to this very day?
Can we not hear the song?
Have we traveled so far to only come to that same mountain again?
That mountain. So mighty. Where is my mustard seed faith, in my pocket?
Don't put that seed in your mouth and speak lip-service to the Promise.
We stand now at an archery range. Our instructor is ancient and as we listen to his admonishments we become very steady in our aim. Our instructor is old school. His calm and quiet confidence has spoken to our jittery nerves. No need to hold our breath as we draw the arrow in a single smooth motion, notch it, and with our eyes fixed on the target we let fly. Our prayer is heard. Answered. We hit the mark.
Did our instructor teach us, "It is impossible to hit the mark, harumph! Don't even try this, I tried once and shot myself in the foot,"? I am not saying that I've apprehended but only that we should run the race as those who who may obtain. When aiming that arrow, should we aim to deliberately MISS? What is mark then? What is our goal as we run the race? Is not the mark the center of the bulls eye? Is not the goal as we run, tossing aside anything that clings to us, - is not the goal to cross the finish line?
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: (1Co 9:24-26)
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
(Heb 12:18-21)I agree with Moshe, "Would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!" (Num 11:29) It is not by strength, not by might. It is only by His Spirit that we, His arrows, can hit the mark that He set for us.
Why are we chastised of the Lord? What happened to the children of Israel (of whom we are a part) when they were chastised? If we have fallen back shall we then forget?
~Sparrow
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Great post, Sparrow
Paul definitely agrees that while he had not obtained perfection, that we ought to be shooting for that goal.Sparrow said:
I once heard tell of a shepherd who was dealing with a lost sheep.
The shepherd left the flock and searched to find and then did find the sheep.
That silly sheep continued in its behavior of wandering.
What was it thinking? Did it love the attention that it received when the shepherd singled her out?
The third time the shepherd left the flock to find the wayward sheep he did something that might be very startling to us in the western world. He broke all four legs of the sheep! WHAT?!? Yes. Broke 'em. Then he took the sheep and placed it upon his shoulders and carried it everywhere.
While her legs healed she became utterly dependent upon the shepherd for everything. He was a good shepherd even though the sheep may have thought occasionally otherwise. She may have also been deliberately incontinent in order to express her dis-pleasure, of this we are unsure - it could have been an accident. As the shepherd faithfully carried the sheep though, to feed her, to let her drink from his own hand as he scooped from the river the water she needed for her very life and as time went on a different kind of relationship formed. Over the weeks that passed she learned to look to him.
Now when a shepherd crosses a stream the sheep will necessarily be timid. He fords ahead though and the sheep who can't stand to be away from (yes, even our now healed little one) jump in immediately. Others will hesitate and deliberate. They jump in later and try to keep near them because they do love him - but the ones that strive to be next to him alway - they are the ones who are nearest to the place on the other side when they cross. Some will be taken by the current more than others - and will land downstream (missing the mark) but they too will cross to the other side - he will make sure of it.
Why does the Lord chastise us? If our legs are broken so that we can not even walk for ourselves, is that not okay? Should we, from the top of the shoulders of the Shepherd bleat out to others that they too should wander so they might obtain our glory? Let us not do so. If any sin and teach others to do so we shall be called least.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
We are to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. I, for one, want to be taught to hit the mark.
The shepherd left the flock and searched to find and then did find the sheep.
That silly sheep continued in its behavior of wandering.
What was it thinking? Did it love the attention that it received when the shepherd singled her out?
The third time the shepherd left the flock to find the wayward sheep he did something that might be very startling to us in the western world. He broke all four legs of the sheep! WHAT?!? Yes. Broke 'em. Then he took the sheep and placed it upon his shoulders and carried it everywhere.
While her legs healed she became utterly dependent upon the shepherd for everything. He was a good shepherd even though the sheep may have thought occasionally otherwise. She may have also been deliberately incontinent in order to express her dis-pleasure, of this we are unsure - it could have been an accident. As the shepherd faithfully carried the sheep though, to feed her, to let her drink from his own hand as he scooped from the river the water she needed for her very life and as time went on a different kind of relationship formed. Over the weeks that passed she learned to look to him.
Now when a shepherd crosses a stream the sheep will necessarily be timid. He fords ahead though and the sheep who can't stand to be away from (yes, even our now healed little one) jump in immediately. Others will hesitate and deliberate. They jump in later and try to keep near them because they do love him - but the ones that strive to be next to him alway - they are the ones who are nearest to the place on the other side when they cross. Some will be taken by the current more than others - and will land downstream (missing the mark) but they too will cross to the other side - he will make sure of it.
Why does the Lord chastise us? If our legs are broken so that we can not even walk for ourselves, is that not okay? Should we, from the top of the shoulders of the Shepherd bleat out to others that they too should wander so they might obtain our glory? Let us not do so. If any sin and teach others to do so we shall be called least.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
We are to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. I, for one, want to be taught to hit the mark.
We can "stop" sinning with our members, even though sin dwells in our members.
This is the message of God in Romans chapter 6-8.
You cannot begin with that warfare. You first become a babe in Christ in Chapter 3, after you have been cut to the quick in chapters 1 and 2.
In chapter 4 and 5 you learn the basis for your peace with God in Jesus our Lord.
Then in chapter 6 our Lord Jesus sends you into the battle to understand the conflict of the flesh and the Spirit. Our Lord Jesus gives you the victory as you abide in the battle and do not tire of the warfare. You will know when the victory is given. This is what John the disciple was testifying in 1 John 2, where he wrote unto the young men because they had overcome the wicked one, even as Jacob wrestled with the angel and prevailed. Chapter 8 ends with the testimony of victory in Christ Jesus.
Your servant in Jesus our Lord,
Joe
This is the message of God in Romans chapter 6-8.
You cannot begin with that warfare. You first become a babe in Christ in Chapter 3, after you have been cut to the quick in chapters 1 and 2.
In chapter 4 and 5 you learn the basis for your peace with God in Jesus our Lord.
Then in chapter 6 our Lord Jesus sends you into the battle to understand the conflict of the flesh and the Spirit. Our Lord Jesus gives you the victory as you abide in the battle and do not tire of the warfare. You will know when the victory is given. This is what John the disciple was testifying in 1 John 2, where he wrote unto the young men because they had overcome the wicked one, even as Jacob wrestled with the angel and prevailed. Chapter 8 ends with the testimony of victory in Christ Jesus.
Your servant in Jesus our Lord,
Joe
Carol Lowery
Member
Sparrow Hawk, and Joe.........wonderful analysis of Truth! That just really bless me.
Dave Slayer asked:
Yes a believer can stop sinning period, it is called holiness and it can be entered into and it can be lost. It is rare and almost forgotten today. Your second claim is a difficult one: 'that once ...saved, it is possible that we will never sin again?' Adam and Eve, though without any prior sin nature - sinned! Adam choose to do so, Eve was deceived. Could Adam not have sinning - yes, but he didn't.
Here is a testimony: On two instances: in 1975 for a single day, and then in 2001 for 4 months - I entered His rest. That is known by many names - one of the most accurate ones is the second blessing. I testify that it is true and it happened to me. But alas - just as that blessing can be entered into - it can also be lost and this also happened in my case.
Art Katz once said he was amazed at how little Christians were satisfied with! Though God has prepared a banquet with lavish food and drink - Christians are content (or then not) to starve.
blessings
Yes a believer can stop sinning period, it is called holiness and it can be entered into and it can be lost. It is rare and almost forgotten today. Your second claim is a difficult one: 'that once ...saved, it is possible that we will never sin again?' Adam and Eve, though without any prior sin nature - sinned! Adam choose to do so, Eve was deceived. Could Adam not have sinning - yes, but he didn't.
Here is a testimony: On two instances: in 1975 for a single day, and then in 2001 for 4 months - I entered His rest. That is known by many names - one of the most accurate ones is the second blessing. I testify that it is true and it happened to me. But alas - just as that blessing can be entered into - it can also be lost and this also happened in my case.
Art Katz once said he was amazed at how little Christians were satisfied with! Though God has prepared a banquet with lavish food and drink - Christians are content (or then not) to starve.
blessings
F
follower of Christ
Guest
One has to wonder why Jesus bothered to die if man can just 'stop' sinning and never, ever do it again. Seems to have been quite a waste of effort if all we have to do is just 'decide' to be holy.
I'll say again that I think some must believe that 'sin' is only those big things we do wrong that WE know about instead of any miss of the mark in our lives.
For example, again, if we know a good to DO and we DONT do it even, it is SIN.
Some little thing we we may not really even think twice about. Something we probably have forgotten about.
Im not trying to nitpick here, but my opinion is that Romans 8 had nothing to do with saying we are beyond sin EVER, but simply shows that when we walk in the Spirit and war against that nature that when we DO sin in some way that we are not condemned. I seen nothing in the text there that says we cannot or do not sin again. I see that when we are living as we should and walking in the Spirit that when we do 'miss the mark' that there is no condemnation.
This is what the law was unable to do.
Romans shows us that we have been set free from the law of sin and I know that some like to believe that this means that we sin no more, but Paul is the one who wrote this and not just once in his writings, but we see that in 1 Timothy 1:15 that Paul STILL considers himself chiefest of sinners, present tense, not past.
I dont see a single thing by Paul that has ever made me believe that the man thought that he was BEYOND sin.
I think Paul understood the human condition and that so much in his life 'missed the mark' that he KNEW his need for a Savior.
Being freed from the law of sin means that we are no longer in bondage to it, it does not mean that we are incapable of sin or John has put us into a very contradictory position...
*IF* man can ever become INCAPABLE of sin then Christ died for nothing. We could ALL just decide NOT to sin and DO IT...and believe you me many of us would LOVE for that to be entirely possible. Even my little sins plague me.
Certainly we keep warring against our flesh and certainly we should do so until the day we die. But John was not a liar when he said that if we say we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth in not in us.
I'll say again that I think some must believe that 'sin' is only those big things we do wrong that WE know about instead of any miss of the mark in our lives.
For example, again, if we know a good to DO and we DONT do it even, it is SIN.
Some little thing we we may not really even think twice about. Something we probably have forgotten about.
Im not trying to nitpick here, but my opinion is that Romans 8 had nothing to do with saying we are beyond sin EVER, but simply shows that when we walk in the Spirit and war against that nature that when we DO sin in some way that we are not condemned. I seen nothing in the text there that says we cannot or do not sin again. I see that when we are living as we should and walking in the Spirit that when we do 'miss the mark' that there is no condemnation.
This is what the law was unable to do.
Romans shows us that we have been set free from the law of sin and I know that some like to believe that this means that we sin no more, but Paul is the one who wrote this and not just once in his writings, but we see that in 1 Timothy 1:15 that Paul STILL considers himself chiefest of sinners, present tense, not past.
I dont see a single thing by Paul that has ever made me believe that the man thought that he was BEYOND sin.
I think Paul understood the human condition and that so much in his life 'missed the mark' that he KNEW his need for a Savior.
Being freed from the law of sin means that we are no longer in bondage to it, it does not mean that we are incapable of sin or John has put us into a very contradictory position...
*IF* man can ever become INCAPABLE of sin then Christ died for nothing. We could ALL just decide NOT to sin and DO IT...and believe you me many of us would LOVE for that to be entirely possible. Even my little sins plague me.
Certainly we keep warring against our flesh and certainly we should do so until the day we die. But John was not a liar when he said that if we say we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth in not in us.
Let us not be afraid of the following scriptures. Let us hear the voice of the Lord through the testimony.
1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. NASU
1 Peter 4:1-2
Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. NASU
Let us not add to this by bolstering it with "neither shall you touch it" type explanations. Let us not take away from it by denying the power of God to sanctify as well as to justify through the blood of Jesus. Let us not be wise above what is written. The spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. May God give us(out of the fullness of the grace that is in Jesus) a measure of grace for the grace to endure unto the end and that the perfect peace of it may come to us in the resurrection.
Let us walk in that which has been revealed to each of us that our consciences may be clear before God by Jesus Christ, the holy One of Israel. Let us hold up the weak.
Your servant in Jesus our Lord,
Joe
1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. NASU
1 Peter 4:1-2
Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. NASU
Let us not add to this by bolstering it with "neither shall you touch it" type explanations. Let us not take away from it by denying the power of God to sanctify as well as to justify through the blood of Jesus. Let us not be wise above what is written. The spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. May God give us(out of the fullness of the grace that is in Jesus) a measure of grace for the grace to endure unto the end and that the perfect peace of it may come to us in the resurrection.
Let us walk in that which has been revealed to each of us that our consciences may be clear before God by Jesus Christ, the holy One of Israel. Let us hold up the weak.
Your servant in Jesus our Lord,
Joe
Fembot
Member
Let us also learn, it is possible for a brother to commit a sin unto death! This possibility should sober every Christian, causing us to keep ourselves, abiding in Christ, growing in Him, testing the spirits and keeping God's commandments.
http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-1-john-5-16-17.htm