can a HEATHEN be saved ?

[Eventide]

That TRUE LIGHT...

I think that the OP does not reflect the truth of the scriptures.. because therein we're told that our Lord Jesus Christ IS that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world.. and although we can't even begin to understand all that this entails, we must accept it in faith.

I also believe that this is a perfect example of Genesis 3 where the LORD is calling Adam back to Himself.. imo it's a living and powerful truth which shows us the matter, even from the beginning.

 

[stovebolts]

Sorry, which isn't a biblically supported argument? My point is that according to Scripture, if one doesn't believe in Christ--who he is and all that he has done--then one isn't saved. That isn't necessarily judging, that's what Scripture teaches. In the end, at the judgement seat, God alone will truly be able to judge men's hearts.

You have just qualified my earlier rant. The church is more focused on believing than doing. We must "believe" a certain list of doctrines in order to be saved. Balderdash.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Or how about this verse?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

So it's a matter then of how one gets one's name into the book of life.

I agree. And I believe that there will be more in that book than most expect. Likewise, I'm sure there will be some who's name is not in that book that fully expect it to be... It works both ways. Please see Mathew 7 as a summary of the Be attitudes.

But Jesus also said that he is the life and that "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6, ESV) Note that he was also answering Thomas:
Joh 14:1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Joh 14:4 And you know the way to where I am going."
Joh 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (ESV)


Even then, people live and act based on that which they believe. I'm not sure we can put one before the other but I do agree that "living the 'way' of Jesus," which no doubt will get defined differently by different people, is not emphasized enough, if at all. There certainly are significant problems in Christianity these days.

Jesus was talking to Jews who already believed in YHVH. Regardless, I've already addressed Jesus being the truth. Everyone has access to the truth even if they don't fully articulate from where it comes from.

The OP is concerned with those who have not heard of YHVH or Jesus.

Or better yet... lets open up this can of worms. Do you think all Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses will burn in hell, every one of htem because of their difference in belief to orthodox Christianity. My vote is No, we will see many of them in Heaven.

 

[Webb]

My vote is yes!!

 

[stovebolts]

My vote is yes!!

Hi Webb,
Just so I got this straight. Yes a Heathen can be saved, or Yes, all Mormons and JW's are on a one way road to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 bucks?

 

[Mike]

Hi Webb,
Just so I got this straight. Yes a Heathen can be saved, or Yes, all Mormons and JW's are on a one way road to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 bucks?

Jeff, I have to say I'm a bit perplexed by your thrust in this thread or perhaps the intensity of it. I don't recall Free or anyone else stating that ALL Mormons are going to hell. This seems a bit much.

I've always said that His decision for anyone is known only to Him and that people will be judged according to their response to the extent of the revelation Given them. But, it seems we can go too far and devalue the importance of responding to a more full revelation. I wouldn't make the claim that you are espousing universalism, and I wouldn't expect that you would infer 100% damnation for those who don't hold to orthodox Christianity from others.

BTW, no pics of your rig from the Woodward Dream Cruise? What's up with that?

 

[SpagLard]

I think that the OP does not reflect the truth of the scriptures.. because therein we're told that our Lord Jesus Christ IS that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world.. and although we can't even begin to understand all that this entails, we must accept it in faith.

Every man , that would include heathen men, no ?

Since the OP is mainly a question about what people here think/believe ...
how does it "not reflect the truth of scriptures "?

 

[Eventide]

Every man , that would include heathen men, no ?

Since the OP is mainly a question about what people here think/believe ...
how does it "not reflect the truth of scriptures "?

With respect to your scenario that is.. ie,

I mean, take the hypothetical scenario that someone has been cut off from society and the information age, and does not know Christ or Christianity.

If the Lord is that true light who lighteth every man, including the heathen... Then that scenario IMO is not accounting for the truth... And as another person has mentioned, Rom 1 also says that they're without excuse for God HAS revealed Himself..

That's all I was trying to say there...

 

[Eventide]

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do RIGHT ?

It reminds me of the conversation which Abraham had with the Lord before He went to destroy Sodomn etc...

Abraham was asking... Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

 

[SpagLard]

If the Lord is that true light who lighteth every man, including the heathen... Then that scenario IMO is not accounting for the truth... And as another person has mentioned, Rom 1 also says that they're without excuse for God HAS revealed Himself..

ah ok, yes i see what you are saying now .
I suppose that if God already has revealed himself to all,
the hypothetical heathen to which God was unbeknownst simply does not exist.

But can one truly say that God has revealed himself to all humans already ?

(this is an honest question , -not to cast doubt on scripture-
as i do believe there are people on the planet who remain unacquainted with Christ and his message , and thus God. )

 

[Eventide]

But can one truly say that God has revealed himself to all humans already

No, but it doesn't matter IMO.. He is that true light... And men are without excuse..

Shall not the judge of all the earth do right ?

 

[stovebolts]

Jeff, I have to say I'm a bit perplexed by your thrust in this thread or perhaps the intensity of it. I don't recall Free or anyone else stating that ALL Mormons are going to hell. This seems a bit much.

I've always said that His decision for anyone is known only to Him and that people will be judged according to their response to the extent of the revelation Given them. But, it seems we can go too far and devalue the importance of responding to a more full revelation. I wouldn't make the claim that you are espousing universalism, and I wouldn't expect that you would infer 100% damnation for those who don't hold to orthodox Christianity from others.

BTW, no pics of your rig from the Woodward Dream Cruise? What's up with that?

Hey Mike,

Intensity? I'm just discussing a topic that is close to my heart. I haven't dug my heels in nor have I gotten irritated so from my perspective, I'm just sitting across the table with a brother with a cup of coffee in one hand having a decent conversation.

Where I think Duane and I have a disconnect is that the thrust of my responses have been toward those who have never heard the gospel, yet Duane's thrust seems to be those that have heard, yet don't believe. Thus, the way I'm understanding Duane, one "MUST" believe in Jesus to be saved. Which is to say that if a person never hears the name of Jesus and accepts the "good news" then one is dammed to hell.

As far as my response in regard to Mormons and JW's, it was a response that veers away from the my original thrust but dips into Duane's since he said earlier "my point is that according to Scripture, if one doesn't believe in Christ--who he is and all that he has done--then one isn't saved."

As far as the "who he is", we know that both you and Duane have a far different take on who Jesus is than the Mormon's and the JW's. So I took that as Duane saying, "If you don't accept the orthodox doctrines on who Jesus is, you're going to go to hell". While I disagree with the Mormon's and JW's, I wouldn't go as far as to say they are hell bound because of those two varying beliefs.

You know, this very topic split the church in 1054. The Orthodox looked at the trinity as a triangle while the RCC looked at the trinity as an upside down triangle. And to split over something as stupid as that.. C'mon havn't we learned anything? What did Jesus say, "They will know you are my disciples by... by what? How we divide from one another?

This takes me into my pet peeve. Believe what "we" believe, or your not part of the church and not only that, you're going to hell. That's not good news and I don't think it's truth. It seems to me that so many different denominations damn the other denominations because of their differing beliefs and every denomination that pits itself against the other when push comes to shove will have those that look at the other straight in the face and say, "Your not a Christian". Balderdash, that just isn't true.

Why? Because a Christian is a follower of Christ. It's action. It's how we treat one another and it's how we view the world around us. Weather one believes in the Trinity, Baptism, Communion etc etc etc has very little to do with following Christ, yet some would make the argument that if you don't believe in X Y and Z, your going to burn in hell.

Now then, I know that Duane does not take it to that extreem, and I want to make it clear that yes, I do have my beliefs, but I don't bind my beliefs to others in the seat of judgment but I can still argue them quiet effectively if I get the inkling. Most of the time I just don't enjoy the argument though... I'd rather sit across the table with a cup of coffee and enjoy a discussion... not to make somebody else wrong, and not to affirm how right I am or anything like that. I just enjoy growing, learning, being stretched and stretching others.

As far as Woodward, I didn't go this year. I'm not running the Crim either. I just don't have the cash, both my girls in Washington are on Meth and I'm trying to help them and I'm racked and stacked with projects that I'm trying to find the money for too.

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts

In response to your question to me (post 26). It is my understanding of the scripture that ALL who obey the gospel ( II Thess.1:7-12 ) and remain faithful unto death ( Rev.2:10 ) will be saved. It matters not if they had formerly been "heathen" , "Mormons", "JW's" you or myself. The converse would be equally true.

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks for the clarity Webb.

By formerly, what exactly do you mean? If somebody grows up in a Mormon household and believes all the Mormon doctrines, and lives a decent life toward God as they understand God in the way that was taught to them. Say they are meek, generous, kind and love God with all their heart yet have what we feel is a skewed view on Jesus (because that's what they were taught). Do you believe they are part of the Church, or are they the later who will go to eternal punishment?

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts---The latter.

God bless

 

[stovebolts]

I see Webb and thank you for your honesty.

I can't bring myself to see God as being that ridged. We people are fallible and lack complete understanding. But what I do understand is that one is influenced heavily by their culture, and certainly by their parents. The early church made accommodations for this, yet we are so eager to divide over it. It just boggles my mind and I see being harsh toward them only pushing them further away from the truth, and not closer.

Here is an example. If you have a child and that child comes from a divorced family, if one parent tries to pit the child against the other parent, it generally doesn't end up well for the child. Why then would we put a block between the Mormons (as an example) and us? Doesn't that simply stop the lines of communication?

 

[Free]

uh yeah, i can see what you are saying. uh duane what of all those lost men in the days of the torah whom never heard? that doesnt mean they are saved but we dont know. we cant say they are damned if they never heard. they must have a chance to deny him.

after the cross i doubt that to be a problem but before i dont know.

The book of Hebrews addresses this to a point. But then I must also bring up what of all the people of the nations that God destroyed in judgement?

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts

We have the NT as the standard of truth. We will be judged by it not our feelings or emotions. The group you mention in question openly dismisses much of the Bible.

God bless

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Stovebolts

We have the NT as the standard of truth. We will be judged by it not our feelings or emotions. The group you mention in question openly dismisses much of the Bible.

God bless

I agree, and Jesus talked more about how to live than what to believe as far as theology was concerned.

Question: Can a JW do what Jesus wrote below?

Matthew 10:37-42 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

 

[Free]

You have just qualified my earlier rant. The church is more focused on believing than doing. We must "believe" a certain list of doctrines in order to be saved. Balderdash.

I am not focusing on one or the other. Both believing and doing have to be taken into account; we cannot sacrifice believing on the altar of doing. If believing in certain things has nothing to do with salvation, then we do not need Scripture at all. We could believe what we want and still be saved.

I'm really not sure how a Christian can say that believing certain doctrines are not necessary for salvation. These beliefs are what define Christianity and what set apart Christianity from every other belief system. They are what determine a false teacher and false prophet from those who are true.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (ESV)

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I'm not sure why you would want to use this verse as the focus is on those who were doing yet didn't belong to Jesus.

But more than that, the context must be looked at:

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (ESV)

So we see that few find the way to life compared to the many who go the way of destruction. But more than that, vss 15 and 16 make it clear that Jesus is speaking of false prophets in verse 21--those who do things in his name but have not put their faith in him.

Or how about this verse?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

And again we must consider the larger context:

Jas 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (ESV)

James is not speaking against belief in 2:19 but faith without works.

Jesus was talking to Jews who already believed in YHVH. Regardless, I've already addressed Jesus being the truth. Everyone has access to the truth even if they don't fully articulate from where it comes from.

The OP is concerned with those who have not heard of YHVH or Jesus.

There is nothing in John 14:6 to suggest that Jesus is the only way to the Father just for Jews. Such a statement should be seen as universal--"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (ESV)

Or better yet... lets open up this can of worms. Do you think all Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses will burn in hell, every one of htem because of their difference in belief to orthodox Christianity. My vote is No, we will see many of them in Heaven.

I say yes, most will spend eternity apart from God. I'm not sure how you can justify such an answer towards false teachers and false prophets, for whom Scripture has some extremely serious warnings.

It simply cannot be the case that one group can claim that Jesus is a created being, a former angel, and another group can claim that he is one of many gods which are the result of sexual relations between the Father and his spirit wife (who were also both products of spirit parents back into an infinite regression), and we do not have to take that into any sort of consideration.

John 3 states that believing in who Jesus is is central to salvation. We simply cannot believe whatever we want about him and expect to spend eternity with him.

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts

It isn't clear to me at least, what you have in mind with the above passage from Matt.10. However, on the surface, I would understand that anyone who so choses can do what the passage implies.