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tblaine74
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Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?
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quote by tblaine74:
This would suggest that faith is something that comes and goes. In which case, it’s coming and going would be a consequence of one’s act, or work, of loving and not loving as you have described.
unred typo said:quote by tblaine74:
This would suggest that faith is something that comes and goes. In which case, it’s coming and going would be a consequence of one’s act, or work, of loving and not loving as you have described.
I’m not sure of exactly what you’re getting at
ChristineES said:I am not too sure it can. If you are Christian and you step over a starving person and don't try to feed him, that isn't show any Christian love. If you have the means and a family you know is going hungry and have only ragged clothing and you don't feel a need to help them, then I don't see how that is showing Christian love, either. If you see someone sad and crying, do you scoff at them or do you offer them a shoulder? You can guess which one should be done by a Christian.
I am not sure I understand exactly what you are asking here. To be sure, this is not an easy subject and the exact meaning of words like "faith" may be hard to articulate for one person and even harder to get agreement upon.tblaine74 said:Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?
I read you as basically saying that the very concept of faith itself cannot be decomposed into a "belief" component and an "action" component. Is this is indeed your point? I certainly do not presently have a clear opinion on this matter - on whether the writers of scripture used the word "faith" to denote anything over and above belief, trust, etc. Things get wildly complicated and fuzzy here. Can it be said that Fred truly "believes" that Jesus is Lord or has "faith" in Jesus if Fred does not act in certain ways. I can see arguments for both answers to that question. I tend to lean to the position that one can indeed believe that Jesus is Lord and yet act as thought He were not. The demons do this, we are told.tblaine74 said:I don’t understand how one can claim justification by faith, as if it were something independent of works.
tblaine74 said:This sounds like you are implying that one could recognize a Christian, or a Christian’s faith, by noting his/her works. I would agree.
Drew said:I am not sure I understand exactly what you are asking here.
Drew said:I read you as basically saying that the very concept of faith itself cannot be decomposed into a "belief" component and an "action" component. Is this is indeed your point?
tblaine74 said:Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?
mutzrein said:tblaine74 said:Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?
I liken faith to being in the Vine (which is Christ).
And I liken works to the fruit of the Spirit that is produced as the result of being in the vine.
The fruit can only stem from being in the vine. This is the fruit of righteousness.
Any attempt to produce fruit in order to be made part of the vine is self righteousness and an abhorrence to God.
Drew said:The demons do this, we are told.
cybershark5886 said:MEC was right about it not necessarily being so the moment you are saved, because you can be saved on your deathbed, never having worked a good work, and still be saved.
I think this would be similar to questioning how a cause can be substantiated without its effects.
quote by cybershark5886:
So I say your faith is always subtsantiated in someway, but that earthly works is not the only manifestation of it.
cybershark5886 said:So I say your faith is always subtsantiated in someway, but that earthly works is not the only manifestation of it.
Josh,
I agree, but can you evaluate your faith outside of earthly works?
ChristineES said:I am not too sure it can. If you are Christian and you step over a starving person and don't try to feed him, that isn't show any Christian love. If you have the means and a family you know is going hungry and have only ragged clothing and you don't feel a need to help them, then I don't see how that is showing Christian love, either. If you see someone sad and crying, do you scoff at them or do you offer them a shoulder? You can guess which one should be done by a Christian.
cybershark5886 said:Do we really need to evaluate our earthly works (given that we are strictly talking of good works that do indeed manifest from faith - not evil works, which if we included unred would be right about the variety on the topic required)?
cybershark5886 said:I don't know from what vantage point you are wondering about this issue (your motive in asking).