Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?

[Vic C.]

Have any of you ever read Galatians?!?

Hmm, I wonder... maybe we have some Galatians here. Circumcision, anyone? 8-)

BTW, MEC, Handy was correct' your "Caps" as emphasis' distracts more than it adds. Just some "milk" for thought. :-D

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,

It would seem that if it is our faith that saves us, then our challenge lies in cultivating that faith. As with anyone who examines his/her conscience, in hopes of discovering what course he/she is on, how he/she may improve, etc., the process depends on the evaluation of action; what have I done, why did I do it, etc. I wonder that this is, in part, why St. Paul maintained such modesty with respect for his own salvation, as no one can possess certainty as to the fullness of his/her faith. I suppose I am cautious, though not enough, of taking faith to lightly, as I don’t think some faith, such as a mere belief in Christ and what he did, is expected, but a perfect faith. Further, I don’t think a true understanding that we will not attain perfect faith in this life, relieves us from our liability in trying. I don’t expect you to disagree with any of this. I am only trying to give you more works, which you may use to evaluate the essence of my thought . I wonder how those who do not appreciate the value of their works with respect to their faith, can ever approach a full appreciation of the value of their faith with respect to salvation.

Tim,

Thanks for the explanation. I feel better equiped to answer now. So thus far, as far as the question in the OP, we see that Faith can be substantiated out side of earthly works, but as far a personal goal-setting and a style of life, no, faith would be weak indeed in the Christian that excercises a bare minimum of works (the Bible does mention those weaker in the faith, and how we need to build them up though). There is always the question of how much can you slack off and still make it in to heaven, which is an unfortunate one (as well as the answer), and the answer can lead to one questioning whether the person who does "the minimum" is really saved or not, but if they are they are weak indeed in faith and will be saved as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 deals with the frightening prospects of building bad (includes negligence) works on the foundation of Christ, and has in view the judgement that all the saints (thus not over salvation) will recieve for their works done in the body:

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This judgement of Christians is called the Judgement Seat of Christ, also mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:10-11:

"10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences."

Because of this judgement of deeds done in the body Paul emphasizes the "Fear of the Lord", a theme prominent in the OT as well as the NT. It is mentioned often in the NT:

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (1 Corinthians 7:1)

"Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe" (Hebrews 12:28) [The same idea is present]

"And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear." (1 Peter 1:17)

"Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king" (1 Peter 2:17).

"Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ." (Ephesians 5:21)

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." (Luke 12:5)

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (Hebrews 4:1)

"Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God." (Colosiians 3:22)

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phillipians 2:12)

"And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come." (Revelation 14:7)

Thus we are to be careful to do our works as before the Lord, and not slack in doing for fear of judgement, knowing our bad works will be burned up. In light of this the Scripture tells us to turn to God's grace, for his grace is sufficient for us, and God is able to make all grace abound toward us that we may be ready for every good work (2 Corinthians 9:8).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[tblaine74]

we see that Faith can be substantiated out side of earthly works

Josh,

I don’t see that. How do you demonstrate that “effects done in the heavenly realmsâ€Â, with respect to your faith, are disjoined from your “earthly worksâ€Â? I like your post.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[cyberjosh]

we see that Faith can be substantiated out side of earthly works

Josh,

I don’t see that. How do you demonstrate that “effects done in the heavenly realmsâ€Â, with respect to your faith, are disjoined from your “earthly worksâ€Â? I like your post.

Thanks,
Tim

Thank you Tim. And how it is apart from physical works is that our faith has ultimate substance in Christ, for we can do many works and choose to do, and not to do, certain things, "but the substance belongs to Christ" (Colossians 2:17). Outward demonstration obviously must be by earthly works, but let's not forget Christ's substance on our behalf to make us adequate as Children of God (which works cannot ever do), "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26). It was Christ's perfect faith and obedience, and not our works which satisfied God's righteous requirements, and we must be found in Christ to have His righteousness and faith, thus "May [we] be found in Him, not having a righteousness of [our] own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Philippians 3:9). This righteousness which can effectively be decribed as imputed righteousness can be seen as a form of God's grace to us for personal sanctification (and is also the source of our positional justification), giving us the ability to please God with our earthly life - which is where the physical works come in - but the source and substance come from and is wrought in Christ (John 3:21 - explicitly states this) who (as our High Priest) makes our deeds an acceptable sacrifice to God, a well pleasing and sweet aroma to God on our behalf (Ephesians 5:2) so that it can also be said of us, on account of Christ, "For we are a fragrance of Christ to God" (2 Corinthians 2:15).

We manifest outwardly the reality of that spiritual reality and vivancy in works, but the substance is ever present in Christ who "made us adequate as servants of a new covenant" (2 Corinthians 3:6). "And who is adequate for these things?" (2 Corinthians 2:16) except Christ, "Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God" (2 Corinthians 3:5). Thus it is through Christ in which our faith is manifested to God, and works in which it is manifested to man, and of course also before God, but though we do good works out of our love for God and also the fear of the Lord (as I mentioned in my last post) Paul urged men to good works but realized we are made manifest inwardly before the Lord, "Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God" (2 Corinthians 5:11).

Hopefully by now you understand what I mean by faith being manifested in the heavenly realms before God and the spiritual substance, unseen before men (though the evidence of having it is seen in works), is yet seen and manifested fully to God in Christ.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[tblaine74]

It was Christ's perfect faith and obedience, and not our works which satisfied God's righteous requirements

Josh,

Yes, but I think you also demonstrated that it is our faith and obedience that will ensure that the life, which Christ gained for us, is spent with Him. I think I may have made this whole discussion more difficult with a poor choice of terminology from the start. Essentially, what I expect, even in my poorly phrased OP, is that my faith cannot be shown to exist without effects, whether it is my awareness, or God’s awareness, of my faith. At one end of my faith is me. Perhaps I start with a belief, and the result of that belief is an act, and the result of that act is another, etc, all of which demonstrate my faith (I readily admit the effect of God’s grace in conjunction with this). How then could even God be aware of my faith without these? That seems tantamount to God being aware of something that doesn’t exist, or in contradictory terms, being aware of something that He is not aware of. I can agree that our faith has “ultimate substance in Christ†insofar as Christ is at the other end of my faith, the “ultimate†end to which my faith flows. Though, I do not understand what is meant by “Christ's substance on our behalfâ€Â. If my faith is a chain of effects spanning from me to Christ, and Christ interjects a link on my behalf, how can that link be seen as an effect of my faith? It would be an effect of Christ’s action, not mine, and we are talking about MY faith. God’s grace, though it affect my faith, is not an effect of my faith, and it is the effects of my faith that demonstrate it.

Best Regards,
Tim

 

[cyberjosh]

Ok Tim, I understand you a bit better now. Now allow me to clarify.

Though, I do not understand what is meant by “Christ's substance on our behalfâ€Â. If my faith is a chain of effects spanning from me to Christ, and Christ interjects a link on my behalf, how can that link be seen as an effect of my faith? It would be an effect of Christ’s action, not mine, and we are talking about MY faith. God’s grace, though it affect my faith, is not an effect of my faith, and it is the effects of my faith that demonstrate it.

I was thinking in terms of grand effects of our faith, namely salvifically. But I now see you are wanting to look at effects of your faith as they come from you (a more focused scope), which is a personal concern and is indeed our most practical avenue of building and working out our faith. However faith as whole accomplishes beyond what we can do, for salvation, which I tried to elaborate on above. Christ's life and works were perfect, ours will never be in this life, thus God judges our salvation based on Christ's works on our behalf, but how do we obtain the distinct privilege of having this substitution?: by our faith in Him and acceptance that his work on the cross can do what He says it can (also called our "hope" in Christ). Thus faith accomplishes effects that do not come directly from us. God says "Because of your faith [and honestly he didn't have to say this - it's all grace] I will impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved and as white as snow that you may dwell with me". Thus the larger effects of our faith all come from God (out of His loving grace) and to God (His Son's sacrifice pleased Him), as grace on account of our faith, nothing else directly effects this. Works alone could never do it, but surely this faith which God regards will demonstrate itself in a lifetime of demonstrative works. I'm just showing what that accomplishes beyond what our own mind, body, and soul can accomplish here on earth - though those most certainly play the major part in substantiating our faith in our present lives.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[tblaine74]

God says "Because of your faith [and honestly he didn't have to say this - it's all grace] I will impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved and as white as snow that you may dwell with me".

Josh,

I agree that it is all grace. So would it be correct to state the converse of this? Such that: “Because of your lack of faith I will not impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved and as white as snow that you may dwell with me". If this is correct, then I think I finally understand your belief on this matter.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,

I agree that it is all grace. So would it be correct to state the converse of this? Such that: “Because of your lack of faith I will not impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved and as white as snow that you may dwell with me". If this is correct, then I think I finally understand your belief on this matter.

Thanks,
Tim

Yes, for the most part I would say that is true, in that such a person would be left to their own "righteousness" according to the law to attempt to meet the righteous requirements of God, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20), and all of us need that substitute in Jesus for, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[tblaine74]

Josh,

Thank you for everything. I believe I have a much better understanding of all this than when I started the thread. I just have one more favor to ask. In reference to the following: "Because of your faith…I will impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved and as white as snow that you may dwell with me". Can you provide the scriptural references that you used to build this?

Thanks again,
Tim

 

[cyberjosh]

Sure I'll try to get to it later tonight, I have to get back to work now though. That is a highly composite teaching from many themes I have seen in Scripture over the years, but I will try my best to give adequate Scripture backing for it. TTYL.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

quote by cybershark5886:
Yes, for the most part I would say that is true, in that such a person would be left to their own "righteousness" according to the law to attempt to meet the righteous requirements of God, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20), and all of us need that substitute in Jesus for, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Josh, this is quite different than what I thought you believed. Did I misunderstand you before, am I misunderstanding you now, or are you on both sides of the fence?

Our righteousness can easily exceed the righteousness of the hypocritical Pharisees, if we love our neighbors, offering them a helping hand in truth and not just to be seen of men, while stabbing them in the back with our other hand. As Drew has been showing in his expositions of Romans 2 & 4 here, the righteousness that God requires is that which comes from the heart, not the outside ‘right doing’ of the law, merely doing a work that covers the letter of the law, for show and for glory in front of men but being in rebellion against God inside.

What does Romans 2 say?

25For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision does transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God praises those who follow his law in the heart, who are walking in the spirit of love and faith. Does this mean that we don’t need the blood of Christ? Of course not. We are human, and even when the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, and if we confess our sins, he promises to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the work that the spirit does, and he that has begun this good work in us will continue to keep us clean as long as we continue to walk in his ways, loving one another and following Christ.

1 John 1:7-9
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is how we become righteous in Christ. Repentance, confession, continually walking in the light as we are lead by the Spirit and instructed by the commands of Christ. This idea that we are going to be judged by a righteousness that we have not attained, is just weird, Josh. You must have scripture to show that, and there must be some misunderstanding of what it says. Show me the verses…let’s look at them again.

 

[cyberjosh]

tblaine,

I apologize for not getting to you as soon as I said I would. I got busy, and even now it's midnight for me and I also have some other things occupying my time this weekend. I will try as soon as possible to answer your questions.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Our righteousness can easily exceed the righteousness of the hypocritical Pharisees,

Not without Jesus we can't. And I know you know that and agree, because you said it in your post (that we need Jesus' blood). Thus there is no misunderstanding between us.

At any rate my intention for the quote was to contrast man's righteousness with Christ's. It wasn't meant to be a long descriptive post, for I already made several posts fit for that before. I was answering a succint question with a succinct answer. Don't get too bent up about it. Peace.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

quote by cybershark5886:
Unred: “Our righteousness can easily exceed the righteousness of the hypocritical Pharisees,â€Â


Not without Jesus we can't. And I know you know that and agree, because you said it in your post (that we need Jesus' blood). Thus there is no misunderstanding between us.

At any rate my intention for the quote was to contrast man's righteousness with Christ's. It wasn't meant to be a long descriptive post, for I already made several posts fit for that before. I was answering a succint question with a succinct answer. Don't get too bent up about it. Peace.

Patience. I’m not trying to be argumentative but this idea that, humanly speaking, we cannot possibly exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees is just not scriptural or reasonable. Jesus constantly pointed out that they were hypocrites, who devoured widows houses, murdered the just, and stole from people they were supposed to minister to. They did trivial things like tithing their spices but were not just in their dealings with their neighbors. We saw how they killed the Lord (and others) to jealously protect their position of ‘righteousness’ in the eyes of the people. I don’t know about you, but I have never stolen a widow’s house through corrupt dealings, or had someone killed because they didn’t agree with me here on the forum. So right there, I can claim a better righteousness than the Pharisees.

Is that claiming that I’m sinless? No, in the past, I have been guilty of being angry without a just cause and that is as if I had committed murder in my heart, so before men, I am sinless of murder but I am not sinless before God. Even in God’s eyes, I am more righteous than a Pharisee who actually killed someone, but I am guilty of the lesser degree of having murder in my heart. God certainly does not consider thoughts of evil the same as deeds of evil. Since I have repented of those angry thoughts, I am forgiven. The Pharisees didn’t repent of their angry thoughts, nor their murderous deeds, therefore I have both a righteousness before God and men that exceeds theirs. Let’s say that they did not set the bar very high.

Jesus, however, set the bar even higher than the keeping of the ten commandments. He demands that we go right into our hearts and examine our thoughts and motives. His kind of righteousness is what we are to strive to achieve. This is possible to attain but only because we have the forgiveness, through the blood of Christ, of our shortcomings when we confess them and repent of evil thoughts and deeds. When we repent, the blood makes us "just as if I’d never sinned," and our sin is not imputed to us. This is how we can attain to the righteousness of Christ. It is this patient continuance in well doing that will bring the reward that we all seek: eternal life.

It sounds impossible, but when we choose to do rightly, we have been promised the aid of the Holy Spirit, and if God be 'for us' in our deeds, who can be against us, and how can we fail?

 

[Vic C.]

Patience. I’m not trying to be argumentative but this idea that, humanly speaking, we cannot possibly exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees is just not scriptural or reasonable. Jesus constantly pointed out that they were hypocrites, who devoured widows houses, murdered the just, and stole from people they were supposed to minister to. They did trivial things like tithing their spices but were not just in their dealings with their neighbors. We saw how they killed the Lord (and others) to jealously protect their position of ‘righteousness’ in the eyes of the people.

You forgot one thing; you forgot to mention how they distorted the Law and instead, tried to impute their own righteousness on the people. Josh is right; yes, we can exceed their righteous, but not without Jesus. It's all about Him and not about us.

I don’t know about you, but I have never stolen a widow’s house through corrupt dealings, or had someone killed because they didn’t agree with me here on the forum. So right there, I can claim a better righteousness than the Pharisees.

Pfft... That's an extremely self righteous statement. It so reminds me of this:

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You really need to humble yourself before your brothers and sisters in Christ and before the Lord Himself. You just fell into the very same self righteous trap as the Pharisees. You probably didn't even realize it. :-?

I don't use The Message much, but this translation of James 4:7-10 nails it:

So let God work his will in you. Yell a loud no to the Devil and watch him scamper. Say a quiet yes to God and he'll be there in no time. Quit dabbling in sin. Purify your inner life. Quit playing the field. Hit bottom, and cry your eyes out. The fun and games are over. Get serious, really serious. Get down on your knees before the Master; it's the only way you'll get on your feet.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

You really need to humble yourself....

vic, vic, vic.... humble people can not 'work' their way into the Kingdom! :o Oh, wait. That was your point, wasn't it? :-D

Those who believe that salvation is based on works, have never been able to explain to me which sin it is that is both too big to be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, and at the same time, is able to be atoned for my some work that I could do.

Again, Typo, I submit that you have your cart (works) before the horse (grace).

>>edit for clarification<<
tblaine74, This is where I stand on the issue:

If you step out from underneath your umbrella, you do not cease being a living human being. You become wet. When you commit a sin, you do not cease being a Christian. You do not lose your salvation. And most importantly, there is absolutely nothing that you are able to do to unsin your sin. It is the blood of Jesus Christ that unsins the sinner. Period.

As I read through the various threads about works, I find that the argument coming from those who believe salvation is based on works seem to be debating a different argument. It seems to me as if the argument becomes "Faith or works", or even "If you believe in faith, therefore, you must also believe that you are on a free ride, have a meal ticket, fire insurance, etc."

You are not debating with people with that attitude. You are addressing people who serve the Lord, are grateful to Him for what He did for us.

If you are looking for people who have recited a prayer that someone told them to say so that they won't go to hell, then it is their faith that you should question, not their works.

Those who are stating that salvation is not based on works, are not "anti-works". I believe in working for the Lord. Everything I am, everything I do, everything that I endure, is for Him. But I am not saved by it. To claim that in order to be saved, I must do some work, that Jesus did not pay for all of my sin, is an insult to Jesus Christ. To say that because Jesus paid for my sin, I can do anything I want and still go to heaven, is an insult to Jesus Christ. My salvation is a done deal. Blessed assurance.

The question that I ask the Lord is not "What can I do to earn my salvation?"
The question that I ask the Lord is "What can I do for You?" "Here am I, send me."


If you are looking for those who believe the gospel message and recited the sinners prayer just to keep from going to hell, check the outer darkness. I believe that is where Jesus said that wicked servants go. That too, is a matter of faith, not of works.

 

[cyberjosh]

Unred,

I will try to get to you later in a PM, because I don't want to derail this thread. I really don't want to derail this thread.

Edit: And without trying to be a dictator, could you PM any differences you have with Vic or Gabby? :D It's not fair to Tim if we derail his thread on this issue.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

quote by vic C.:
Unred wrote: “Patience. I’m not trying to be argumentative but this idea that, humanly speaking, we cannot possibly exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees is just not scriptural or reasonable. Jesus constantly pointed out that they were hypocrites, who devoured widows houses, murdered the just, and stole from people they were supposed to minister to. They did trivial things like tithing their spices but were not just in their dealings with their neighbors. We saw how they killed the Lord (and others) to jealously protect their position of ‘righteousness’ in the eyes of the people.â€Â

You forgot one thing; you forgot to mention how they distorted the Law and instead, tried to impute their own righteousness on the people. Josh is right; yes, we can exceed their righteous, but not without Jesus. It's all about Him and not about us.

Are you saying the Pharisees tried to give the people their own righteousness? You must mean they tried to impose (not impute) their ideas about righteousness, through obeying a set of rituals, on the people. Yes, they were false teachers. They didn’t stress love for God and fellowman but instead taught a strict adherence to hand washings, food restrictions, holy days and ceremonies. They taught that these rituals, if done according to their exact formula, would save. This reminds me of those who have a list of exact definitions and doctrines that must be believed in order to be saved.

quote by vic C.:
Unred said: “I don’t know about you, but I have never stolen a widow’s house through corrupt dealings, or had someone killed because they didn’t agree with me here on the forum. So right there, I can claim a better righteousness than the Pharisees.â€Â

Pfft... That's an extremely self righteous statement. It so reminds me of this:

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You really need to humble yourself before your brothers and sisters in Christ and before the Lord Himself. You just fell into the very same self righteous trap as the Pharisees. You probably didn't even realize it.

That wasn’t a self-righteous statement. That was a fact. Do you want to try to tell me that the Pharisee who murdered his political enemies and stole from widows and orphans was no worse than the average Joe who lives according to the golden rule? What planet do you come from? Did I say that I was better than this publican who confessed his sins and repented? No, I did not. But in answer to your claim that we cannot be more righteous than a Pharisee, I used our lives as an example. I should have included you since I am fairly sure you could meet the righteous level of a hypocritical, thieving, murderous generation of vipers. Let me correct that right here. Forget me. You can claim a better righteousness than the Pharisees, Vic.

quote by vic C.:
I don't use The Message much, but this translation of James 4:7-10 nails it:

So let God work his will in you. Yell a loud no to the Devil and watch him scamper. Say a quiet yes to God and he'll be there in no time. Quit dabbling in sin. Purify your inner life. Quit playing the field. Hit bottom, and cry your eyes out. The fun and games are over. Get serious, really serious. Get down on your knees before the Master; it's the only way you'll get on your feet.

Excellent, I had never read that in that translation before. I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[cyberjosh]

Alright Tim, I'm finally getting around to this. I'll try to break it down piece by piece and show the general idea behind this:

God says "Because of your faith I will impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved and as white as snow that you may dwell with me"

First of all,

God says

Lets look at what else God has said.

"Be Holy for I am Holy" (1 Peter 1:16; Leviticus 11:44, 19:2).

Why? "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God" (Hebrews 12:14-15).

God also said, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless" (Genesis 17:1). And Jesus said, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

How? "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Phillipians 3:12-15).

And what did Paul say about attaining this perfection and righteousness just prior to that? And this is a key verse which actually answers almost all parts of that composite teaching I gave, it's more explicit than I remembered, "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phillipians 3:8-9).

It is something given only through Christ and in Christ, and it is not our righteousness but God's righteousness given to us on the basis that we have faith. And what else did Jesus say about pursuing God's righteousness? "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" (Matthew 6:33).

It is clear that the only way we can be holy, and blameless, and perfect, and righteous is through Christ, and not coming from ourselves but through God on the basis of faith.

This also defines the nature of our salvation, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God " (Ephesians 2:8). The Greek makes it clear that it is talking about salvation as not being of ourselves, and we see also that we obtain that only as a gift "by grace" on the basis of faith, "through faith". Thus that also covers my note I interrupted with where I said about it all being grace, that God didn't have to do it.

Because of your faith I will impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved

I actually covered a bit of this above. How righteousness is on the basis of faith and it comes to us through Christ, that we may be saved "not of ourselves" but as "the gift of God".

Other things which speak of this are:

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith" (Romans 9:30).

"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30). Christ becomes to us righteousness, sanctification (holiness), and redemption (salvation), which is the idea behind imputation.

"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" (Romans 1:17). The one who lives righteous cannot be apart from faith.

"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:6-9). This is saying that we need not ask who will (or "how can I?") obtain righteousness (aka get to Christ - which here seems synonymous with obtaining righteousness and salvation - by "bringing him down" or "up"), but rather believe in the "word of faith" (the word & news that says Christ will save us on the simple & amazing basis of faith alone), and confess Jesus as Lord. And as a result we will experience the "righteousness based on faith".

I could go on and on. Again, Hebrews 11:7 mentions the, "righteousness which is according to faith", which clearly comes through faith in Jesus. And infact the whole basis of our justification is graciously given us by our faith in Christ, "even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ" (Galatians 2:16).

and as white as snow that you may dwell with me

I'm sure your concerns lied mostly with how I obtained the first part, but these I put in as a few examples of the things that come with that salvation through Christ. Our sins will be wiped away and we will be as white as snow (and white [pure] garments in the Bible denote the "righteousness of the saints" Revelation 19:8). And also God's long standing plan and promise to his people ever since Mt. Sinai was that he would walk among us, and dwell with and in us, and that he would be our God, and that we would be His people (2 Corinthians 6:16-18, which pulls on huge and plenteous themes from the OT).

So I hope with all this in mind you too can rejoice about and because of the righteousness that Christ gives to us on the basis of our faith that we may use that grace and work to cleanse ourselves to be holy (2 Corinthians 7:1 - Paul's immediate conclusion after rehashing the promises in 2 Corinthians 6:16-18), and holiness without which no one will see God.

"And who is adequate for these things?" (2 Corinthians 2:16)

"Our adequacy is from God." (2 Corinthians 3:5)

"I thank Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Romans 7:25)

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel:

vic C. wrote:You really need to humble yourself....


vic, vic, vic.... humble people can not 'work' their way into the Kingdom! Oh, wait. That was your point, wasn't it?

Those who believe that salvation is based on works, have never been able to explain to me which sin it is that is both too big to be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, and at the same time, is able to be atoned for my some work that I could do.

Again, Typo, I submit that you have your cart (works) before the horse (grace).

I don’t say that your works atone for your sin, Gabby. That is what you would like me to say so you can cut it down easier. The sin that isn’t atoned for by the blood of Christ is the sin you refuse to repent of.

quote by Gabbylittleangel:

>>edit for clarification<<
tblaine74, This is where I stand on the issue:

If you step out from underneath your umbrella, you do not cease being a living human being. You become wet. When you commit a sin, you do not cease being a Christian. You do not lose your salvation. And most importantly, there is absolutely nothing that you are able to do to unsin your sin. It is the blood of Jesus Christ that unsins the sinner. Period.

As I read through the various threads about works, I find that the argument coming from those who believe salvation is based on works seem to be debating a different argument. It seems to me as if the argument becomes "Faith or works", or even "If you believe in faith, therefore, you must also believe that you are on a free ride, have a meal ticket, fire insurance, etc."

You are not debating with people with that attitude. You are addressing people who serve the Lord, are grateful to Him for what He did for us.

If you are looking for people who have recited a prayer that someone told them to say so that they won't go to hell, then it is their faith that you should question, not their works.

Those who are stating that salvation is not based on works, are not "anti-works". I believe in working for the Lord. Everything I am, everything I do, everything that I endure, is for Him. But I am not saved by it. To claim that in order to be saved, I must do some work, that Jesus did not pay for all of my sin, is an insult to Jesus Christ. To say that because Jesus paid for my sin, I can do anything I want and still go to heaven, is an insult to Jesus Christ. My salvation is a done deal. Blessed assurance.

The question that I ask the Lord is not "What can I do to earn my salvation?"
The question that I ask the Lord is "What can I do for You?" "Here am I, send me."

LOL. How humble. What can you do for God??? He doesn’t need your steenking works, Gabby. He graciously allows you to work out your own salvation in love and obedience to him. One day he will judge those works and if they pass his test, you may get the reward of eternal life that he has promised to those that obey him. I get that crazy idea from scripture, btw. You’ll have to toss these verses to the Jews since it comes from Hebrews:

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing you are dull of hearing.

Blessed assurance? There is no rest for the wicked. If you are obeying Christ, you can have assurance. Otherwise, just a fearful looking for judgment.

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
If you are looking for those who believe the gospel message and recited the sinners prayer just to keep from going to hell, check the outer darkness. I believe that is where Jesus said that wicked servants go. That too, is a matter of faith, not of works.

You can’t have saving faith without works. Faith without works is dead and cannot save. They are not a horse and cart, Gabby. The works are a horseless carriage and your faith is the fuel. Without faith, the works do nothing like a car out of gas. Without works, the faith is like gasoline spilled on the ground. You’re not going anywhere but down.