Can it be proved, without a doubt, there's no free will spoken of in the Bible

[Grubal Muruch]

Can anyone prove to the best of their ability's that, nowhere in the Scriptures does it speak of "any" free-will regarding mankind?? Is there, "not" a single verse that "resonates" of free-will?? At any point in Scripture does it sound like man has a free-will of his own to do anything other than sin?? I mainly ask these questions of people who actually read and study "God's word." Not those who heard something about it on T.V. or read it in some other publication... I would like to hear from people who actually, with all their heart have never read "anything" in the word that even resembles free-will...

 

[reba]

Grub how about defining your definition of free will. That way folks dont get going in a million directions

Here is my thoughts on the term free will

I believe there is good and evil in the world. I believe man serves one or the other.

In this verse Jesus does not have a 'gray' area.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here our Lord implies man is not free while in sin.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

I dont see any 'free will' in being a servant of sin.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Romans 3 describes IMO how God sees the ungodly or unsaved etc.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I see man free in Christ or in bondage to satan. I dont see what i think most folks call free will...

How would you describe free will ?

 

[glorydaz]

Grub how about defining your definition of free will. That way folks dont get going in a million directions

Here is my thoughts on the term free will

I believe there is good and evil in the world. I believe man serves one or the other.

In this verse Jesus does not have a 'gray' area.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Reba, do you think man chooses to do those lusts because he has to or because he wants to?

Here our Lord implies man is not free while in sin.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Would you say this means man is free to choose to disobey God after he's saved or not?
Conversely, do you think the unsaved are never free to obey the conscience God gave all men?

I dont see any 'free will' in being a servant of sin.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Must the servant of sin or the servant of God always obey his master?
It seems to me that we see examples of both not ALWAYS obeying...thus man has the ability to choose.
We see the ungodly following his conscience at times, and we see the godly still listening to their flesh at times.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grub how about defining your definition of free will. That way folks dont get going in a million directions

Here is my thoughts on the term free will

I believe there is good and evil in the world. I believe man serves one or the other.

In this verse Jesus does not have a 'gray' area.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here our Lord implies man is not free while in sin.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

I dont see any 'free will' in being a servant of sin.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Romans 3 describes IMO how God sees the ungodly or unsaved etc.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I see man free in Christ or in bondage to satan. I dont see what i think most folks call free will...

How would you describe free will ?

God certainly has free-will to reign over the Heavens and the universe combined. In the Scriptures it tells us that God created man in His own image...God assuredly gave man the ability to make decisions based upon obedience and disobedience...Adam displays this freewill in the garden by "choosing" to be disobedient to God's command to, not eat of the tree of good and evil...Eve was deceived however, Adam sinned...And of course they paid the consequences...Free will allows ALL of humanity to make independent choices without being restricted or controlled by spiritual elements...We choose who we'll marry, where we'll work, what church we'll attend, etc,. etc...The main area of choice however is, what we will believe...Some choose to believe in philosophy, religion, combined with a myriad of different areas of human interest...God created us for fellowship, we choose to sin (through Adam) That fellowship was interrupted...God ordained a way in which humanity could be redeemed, and that was through the sacrificial death of His Son on the cross and subsequent Resurrection...Christ paid the price for a world of lost sinners, and opened up a way for man to be restored...God however, requires that man, use his freewill to place his faith in Christ and Christ alone for his salvation... Man is truly sinful and separated from God due to his sinfulness, but God has chosen to offer His Grace of forgiveness and mercy to whosoever will place their faith in His Son for their salvation...God's gift to humanity requires man's (free will) faith in order to work.. God has chosen that, as His requirement...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grub how about defining your definition of free will. That way folks dont get going in a million directions

Here is my thoughts on the term free will

I believe there is good and evil in the world. I believe man serves one or the other.

In this verse Jesus does not have a 'gray' area.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here our Lord implies man is not free while in sin.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

I dont see any 'free will' in being a servant of sin.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Romans 3 describes IMO how God sees the ungodly or unsaved etc.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I see man free in Christ or in bondage to satan. I dont see what i think most folks call free will...

How would you describe free will ?

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Here, Jesus is specifically speaking to the Jews (that's the context) He's telling them of the "state their in" they obviously appear to be rejecting Him as their "Messiah." They, had the "choice" to follow Him (as some did) but this particular group were hostile and would have no part of Him...Therefore, He (obviously knowing their hearts) said they were of their father the devil...There were times that Jesus presented Himself,people choose to follow Him...Sin is a state of being that can be altered by placing one's faith in Christ as Savior and Lord...If your, in Christ you are made a new creation...

 

[reba]

Reba, do you think man chooses to do those lusts because he has to or because he wants to?

It is mans nature

Would you say this means man is free to choose to disobey God after he's saved or not?

I will have a tuff time getting this into words...We Christians sin . Sorta our old nature pops up ever so often. and we are panged with guilt and repent. This is different then the unsaved. Hope that is clear?

Conversely, do you think the unsaved are never free to obey the conscience God gave all men?

I beleive Jesus answers your question and no way could i answer better.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Must the servant of sin or the servant of God always obey his master?
It seems to me that we see examples of both not ALWAYS obeying...thus man has the ability to choose.

To answer this i will have to ask a question Can man not sin with out the grace of God in his life.. The old nature is John 3;17 condemmed already. We christians sin with His grace...

We see the ungodly following his conscience at times, and we see the godly still listening to their flesh at times.

When i see people all walks some are nicer than others. Being what man would call good, nice, neighbourly, helpful etc. with out Christ in their life they are lost to salvation. Man can not save him self. We need Christ.
We as messengers of the gospel would be in error to allow good nice folks to think they are not sinners. How we see man, fallen or not, is not important in the realm of salvation what is important is how He, God, sees man that is Romans 3

 

[reba]

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Here, Jesus is specifically speaking to the Jews (that's the context) He's telling them of the "state their in" they obviously appear to be rejecting Him as their "Messiah." They, had the "choice" to follow Him (as some did) but this particular group were hostile and would have no part of Him...Therefore, He (obviously knowing their hearts) said they were of their father the devil...There were times that Jesus presented Himself,people choose to follow Him...Sin is a state of being that can be altered by placing one's faith in Christ as Savior and Lord...If your, in Christ you are made a new creation...

Here He is speaking directly to

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Do you believe man has to be born again?

The woman at the well was told He was the Living Water Isn't He our Living Water also?

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

The above verse was spoke to the men with Him His disciples Do we not need adhere to that commandment?

For me it is the same Book i dont chop it up as if some parts dont apply.. That is way i hold Matt 7:7 in the same regard as Rom;3 10+

 

[reba]

That fellowship was interrupted...God ordained a way in which humanity could be redeemed, and that was through the sacrificial death of His Son on the cross and subsequent Resurrection...

The scriptures say
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


The church is not an interruption of Gods plan.

Grub, for your thread a definition of free will from you woudl be a good idea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have laid out my thoughts i will not discuss for a while. We are doing remodeling and we do the work! And worser posting and moderating dont mx well...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Here He is speaking directly to

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Do you believe man has to be born again?

The woman at the well was told He was the Living Water Isn't He our Living Water also?

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

The above verse was spoke to the men with Him His disciples Do we not need adhere to that commandment?

For me it is the same Book i dont chop it up as if some parts dont apply.. That is way i hold Matt 7:7 in the same regard as Rom;3 10+

The word speaks of "being born of water" that means that, a man or woman is born from their Mothers womb. The "physical" water that comes forth which brings the baby into the world is the water being spoken of (not water baptism) Next we must be "born again Spiritually" in order to enter the kingdom of God...This requires being convicted by the Spirit, placing our faith in Christ, and being "cleansed" by the Spirit and placed (by the Spirit) into the body of Christ. We henceforth, after all that,are considered a "child of God..." It's a Spiritual birth carried out by the Holy Spirit...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The scriptures say
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


The church is not an interruption of Gods plan.

Grub, for your thread a definition of free will from you woudl be a good idea.

I already discussed my definition of free will in post 4 in this thread. Perhaps you missed it...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have laid out my thoughts i will not discuss for a while. We are doing remodeling and we do the work! And worser posting and moderating dont mx well...

That which was "ordained" and predestined was that, all those would would come to Christ "in faith" would become conformed to the image of Christ.(that was God's will) That verse isn't speaking of "election."

Thos e who's names are written in the "book of life" are those who placed their faith in Christ...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The scriptures say
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


The church is not an interruption of Gods plan.

Grub, for your thread a definition of free will from you woudl be a good idea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have laid out my thoughts i will not discuss for a while. We are doing remodeling and we do the work! And worser posting and moderating dont mx well...

I spoke of free will in post four of this thread...

 

[mondar]

I agree with Reba in many ways. Certainly the definition is an obvious starting place. Grubal or glorydaz, please define your terms? Is the sin nature something that is so weak that it merely influences us at times? Or is the sin nature something that we are in bondage to, as a slave? (Like in Romans 6:17---not the word servant is doulos--bond slave).

In 1 Cor 2:14 we read that the natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit. How would you take that verse? Maybe some men are super spiritual before they are saved and actually can receive the things of the Spirit?

What is the free will?

I don't have much new to say than what Reba already said, but want to add my voice to hers.

Reba, do you think man chooses to do those lusts because he has to or because he wants to?

Reba answer this already. Her answer was that man chooses according to his nature. I am in agreement with her answer. Of course the nature of man is fallen, so mans will does not desire the things of God. We do not have the freedom to change our nature any more then a leopard can change his spots. Can a man change his own heart?

Would you say this means man is free to choose to disobey God after he's saved or not?
Conversely, do you think the unsaved are never free to obey the conscience God gave all men?

Must the servant of sin or the servant of God always obey his master?
It seems to me that we see examples of both not ALWAYS obeying...thus man has the ability to choose.
We see the ungodly following his conscience at times, and we see the godly still listening to their flesh at times.

As to your question on the unsaved....
The ungodly do have a conscience. Their conscience is fallen, and marred, but they do have a conscience. The unsaved are free to follow their conscience. However, since their conscience is marred, they will never do that which pleases God. A mother will still love her children, and then hate her neighbors children. A mother will give her daughter 3 dresses, and watch the neighbor child go hungry and cold. So even when a person follows conscience, it does not please God. There is no merit before God in the unsaved following conscience. But this is not what the term "free will" is really about.

After salvation, I would agree that man is free to choose his path. He is no longer a slave of his sin nature, but the sin nature is not irradiated. Before salvation, man will follow his heart (nature). Man will do what he loves. He is free to do as he pleases, but man always pleases to rebel from God and go about and establish his own righteousness apart from God.

As you say "the ability to choose" has nothing to do with the term "free will." Man has the ability to choose God, but he never will use that ability because by nature he loves his sin. I have the ability not to eat the pie my wife made (and it is sinfully good), but I have not the desire to use that ability.

This is why Augustine of Hippo prayed "command what you will, and give us the grace to do what you command." Of course Pelagius strenuously objected on the basis of "free will." Augustine expressed the concept of original sin, and then Pelagius denied original sin and affirmed "free will."

The subject of "free will" always reflects our views on the nature of man. Where in the scriptures do we see such a lofty view of the nature of the natural man that man can obey God without God's grace?

 

[Jam]

I spoke of free will in post four of this thread...

But you have yet to define it in this thread

Anyway, you know how I feel about this issue. I personally would not say that it can be proved without a doubt that there is no free will spoken of in the Bible, but I don't believe that anything at all can be proven without a doubt, so the point is rather redundant from my point of few.

It is proven beyond reasonable doubt, for me: like I said in the other thread, I have yet to see a single verse that shows free will to exist as it is commonly defined. Choice and will? Yes. Free choice and free will? No. Of course, it is possible that I did miss a verse somewhere that clearly states "man's will is free", and I would happy to concede "defeat" if such a verse were provided. That's not to say such an exact verse would be the only thing to convince me, though.

 

[childeye]

Can anyone prove to the best of their ability's that, nowhere in the Scriptures does it speak of "any" free-will regarding mankind?? Is there, "not" a single verse that "resonates" of free-will?? At any point in Scripture does it sound like man has a free-will of his own to do anything other than sin?? I mainly ask these questions of people who actually read and study "God's word." Not those who heard something about it on T.V. or read it in some other publication... I would like to hear from people who actually, with all their heart have never read "anything" in the word that even resembles free-will...

Grubal, you really need to define what you mean by freewill. These are a very few of the many scriptures that I see showing there is no freewill as an absolute or in other words, an enslaved will depending on your definition and to what free is relative to.
Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:27
Genesis 2:17
Deuteronomy 30:19
Isaiah 35:4-10
Isaiah 61:3
John 9:39
1Corinthians 1:27-30
Roman 1:18-20
Romans 10:9-10
Matthew 5:3-12
Matthew 4:4
Matthew 11:25
Ephesians 17-18
Luke 16:13
Luke 14:24
Luke 7:47
Luke 6:26
Galatians 4:22-26
1John 4:9
1 John 3:7-9

 

[childeye]

I spoke of free will in post four of this thread...

Sorry Grubal, I read that post twice and there was no definition provided. All you did was give examples of where men chose. As you know, every living creature chooses to be doing something as they are endowed by God with life. I do believe you should give forth your definition and make it pertaining to morality. If you mean we freely choose to have Love or not, say so. If you mean we freely choose to deny or serve Love say so. If you say we freely choose to deny we take God for granted, say so.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

But you have yet to define it in this thread

Anyway, you know how I feel about this issue. I personally would not say that it can be proved without a doubt that there is no free will spoken of in the Bible, but I don't believe that anything at all can be proven without a doubt, so the point is rather redundant from my point of few.

It is proven beyond reasonable doubt, for me: like I said in the other thread, I have yet to see a single verse that shows free will to exist as it is commonly defined. Choice and will? Yes. Free choice and free will? No. Of course, it is possible that I did miss a verse somewhere that clearly states "man's will is free", and I would happy to concede "defeat" if such a verse were provided. That's not to say such an exact verse would be the only thing to convince me, though.

It would take a "higher" power, to show you that truth...

 

[glorydaz]

Is the sin nature something that is so weak that it merely influences us at times? Or is the sin nature something that we are in bondage to, as a slave? (Like in Romans 6:17---not the word servant is doulos--bond slave).

In 1 Cor 2:14 we read that the natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit. How would you take that verse? Maybe some men are super spiritual before they are saved and actually can receive the things of the Spirit?

You bring up some excellent points, mondar, and they all seem to revolve around the nature of man, which I'd like to address in a moment. I believe the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit because we have lost our connection to God. We were created to walk in the garden with God...to have fellowship with Him. When Adam and Eve were expelled, they lost that and are basically alone and left to their own devices. Man's spirit has no input from God, who is Spirit, and therefore our spirit is in a state of slumber. We know death, in the Word, is often termed "sleep" and that's how I see it rather than our spirit being dead. It needs to be "quickened" by the Holy Spirit before we can receive the things of the spirit.

Of course the nature of man is fallen, so mans will does not desire the things of God. We do not have the freedom to change our nature any more then a leopard can change his spots. Can a man change his own heart?

The ungodly do have a conscience. Their conscience is fallen, and marred, but they do have a conscience. The unsaved are free to follow their conscience. However, since their conscience is marred, they will never do that which pleases God. A mother will still love her children, and then hate her neighbors children. A mother will give her daughter 3 dresses, and watch the neighbor child go hungry and cold. So even when a person follows conscience, it does not please God. There is no merit before God in the unsaved following conscience. But this is not what the term "free will" is really about.

The subject of "free will" always reflects our views on the nature of man. Where in the scriptures do we see such a lofty view of the nature of the natural man that man can obey God without God's grace?

I think of God's grace as man's conscience. All men have one, and we can frustrate the grace of God by continual sin as our conscience becomes hardened. Then mercy would be Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to create a doctrine here, just trying to share my thoughts.

This is my question to you. Why do you say our nature is "fallen" and our conscience is "fallen"?

As I see it, we are no different than Adam and Eve except that we no longer have access to God.

Then, too, Jesus had a divine nature which could not sin, and a human nature that could choose to sin.

 

[childeye]

=Light;587140]

but I don't believe that anything at all can be proven without a doubt, so the point is rather redundant from my point of few.

Had to remark on this. Can you believe without a doubt that we should treat others
as we would want to be treated?

 

[Eventide]

Rebekah...

I think that the opposite is proved in the scriptures.. especially with respect to the Lord building His church based upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the son of the living God..

Even though we're taught that the church of God was hidden in times past, the story was foretold long ago in Genesis, long before the church of God came into existence at Pentecost.

The story of Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son Isaac.. tells us the story.. and when we read that living and powerful story, it speaks to the fact that Rebekah was 'willing' to follow the messenger and to go to where Isaac was in faith.. trusting that the messenger was true.

It's as if God knew that 'freewill' would be a hot topic and put it in there to show us the truth of the matter in a simple story.

 

[childeye]

Re: Rebekah...

I think that the opposite is proved in the scriptures.. especially with respect to the Lord building His church based upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the son of the living God..

Even though we're taught that the church of God was hidden in times past, the story was foretold long ago in Genesis, long before the church of God came into existence at Pentecost.

The story of Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son Isaac.. tells us the story.. and when we read that living and powerful story, it speaks to the fact that Rebekah was 'willing' to follow the messenger and to go to where Isaac was in faith.. trusting that the messenger was true.

It's as if God knew that 'freewill' would be a hot topic and put it in there to show us the truth of the matter in a simple story.

Say What? Eventide that whole story was about how God made everything happen.
Genesis 24:42

King James Version (KJV)


42And I came this day unto the well, and said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, if now thou do prosper my way which I go:

Genesis 24:48

King James Version (KJV)


48And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son.

Genesis 24:56

King James Version (KJV)


56And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master.