Can man change Gods Law?

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What matters to both God and man is the man's salvation and his well-being. The Law when used to help a man attain salvation serves man. Religious man-made laws which do not serve these good purposes are worthless.

Mark 7:10-13 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corbanâ€â€”’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.â€

Luke 13:13-17, Luke 6:1-5

I honestly don't believe the RCC gives a whole truth on these matters. Why? They suppose 'free' will. I haven't been able yet to make my own supposed 'free' will not be tempted. What's up with that? If our will is free, why are we then tempted within our minds?

I was blessed one day in a long discourse with a friend with whom I was discussing Law and Grace and the difficulties of scriptural harmony. I had been seriously studying this matter for over 10 years devouring every dissection I could find, testing testing. I could not get many certain scriptures to compute and be harmonious. It's not an uncommon problem for many and is a fulcrum of many divisions.

So, this gent being a long time serious student as well provides a few words of very sage advice as to which direction to hunt this dog.

Who is the law for says he?

Why, for the lawless says I. But since we all have sin are we factually not all lawless, since sin is transgression of the law? Therefore the law is unto all of us as in 'against our lawlessness.'

He says, do you think mankind is the only party involved with law?

What do you mean? says I.

Is the devil lawless? he asked

Why unquestionably the devil and his messengers are inherently lawless beyond any dispute, says I.

Where did Jesus show these parties to be? he says.

Uh, er, IN MAN?

I didn't need any further prompting. It was funny that in all those years I had never once considered that the LAW is against the ultimate lawless ones, the devil and his messengers who were factually shown to be with man. I sat and thought about that for a long long time, because I knew the implication of this matter. It took awhile to come to grips with it, because I knew instantly what that series of questions meant to me personally.

IF the tempter tempts in mind and heart he has access to do so. That pretty well placed that operator there, in my own mind and heart. That was a bitter pill to contemplate. Rather than leap off the theological cliff, I studied the entirety of the subject matter again. Three more years I spent in the text examining this exact matter. It was a rock solid fact.

I could then apply this matter for example to this conversation about law, and easily observe that few bring this consideration to the table on subjects of law. Most will either outright deny the law and claim total grace, or some will take the law and claim to be legally obedient.

Factoring the tempter into these equations I found neither position to be truthful. The tempter will never be legally obedient no matter what any believer claims. It's not even remotely possible for that to actually happen, because the sowing of The Word, the Law actually prompts the tempter to tempt our minds with evil sin thought, which is FACTUAL SIN. It's not so much going to Saturday Sabbath for example, but even the mere thought of not doing so is a technical law violation if one really wanted to be honest about temptation being sin. Same with adultery. Same with covetousness. The mere thought of any of it is internal factual defiling sin. There is really no way around this fact.

So, using the Grace alone standard the same issue arose. No, the tempter is assuredly beyond any doubt NOT under Grace whatsoever. Not even a little tiny bit. Again, any believer claiming such is only deceiving themselves if they are not taking into the factual account of the tempter.

Well then, how about 'good works?' Nope. None of that will avail the tempter one bit.

If any believer wants to apply the fact of the tempter into any of their doctrinal equations, they will be amazed at how pathetic those standards are on many counts by simply applying this basic fact of scripture.

Freewill? Nah. Predestination and election? Nah, not to the tempter. It's not 'that' encompassing.

Factual measures are demanded. I believe the majority of sectarian differences can be put down and aside by simply being honest about this matter. I don't however expect the Pope to be making any kind of statements as the Apostle Paul made for himself though. That will not happen. Paul had evil present with him, even a devil. If any man in the pulpit even DARES to be that honest it may cost him his job and it will offend the majority of pew sitters as well.

Nobody wants that much TRUTH.

enjoy!

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[childeye]

What matters to both God and man is the man's salvation and his well-being. The Law when used to help a man attain salvation serves man. Religious man-made laws which do not serve these good purposes are worthless.

Mark 7:10-13 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corbanâ€â€”’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.â€

Luke 13:13-17, Luke 6:1-5

My point is that the laws are shadows of what is the substance. They are just analogies of what Love does. The deeper discourse is that God is the goodness in us.

Regarding Mark 7:10-13, Jesus is simply saying that to follow the law to the letter for the sake of the letter is contradictory. I take it you agree with this?

 

[Drew]

The problem is this: The scriptures are really quite clear that the time of applicability of the Law of Moses has come to an end.

And this was not man's doing, it was God's.

Now, as for the famous Matthew 5 text, please consider the following argument:

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Law of Moses will remain in force basically to the end of time.

 

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Paul laid out the fact that TWO COVENANTS and the LAW were already in place at the time of Abraham, long before the Law of Moses, yet Paul links the law of Moses to Sinai, where The Law of Moses was delivered.

Paul also cleanly places 'both Covenants' solidly upon each believer.

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Paul goes on into intimate detail in chapter 5 how the first covenant pertains to condemn 'works of the flesh' that are entirely possible for a believer to have and to partake in, even warning us NOT TO therein pander.

And the second Covenant equated to 'Works of the Spirit' against which there is no Law, even thought the Law contains these matters.

Those of the faith of the father of our faith, Abraham, will be led to understand these matters. Sons of the flesh won't 'get it' nor can they.

s

 

[childeye]

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Those of the faith of the father of our faith, Abraham, will be led to understand these matters. Sons of the flesh won't 'get it' nor can they.

For the sake of God's glory does the defeat of vanity exist. So it is that both men can't see or they do see. And so it is by grace so that all men are seen as only vessels for what is eternal. I know you understand this smaller. Consequently there is hope that those who can't see, can see, lest we take credit for seeing. After all Abraham himself begat both sons, but in reality was it not God?

 

[smaller]

For the sake of God's glory does the defeat of vanity exist. So it is that both men can't see or they do see. And so it is by grace so that all men are seen as only vessels for what is eternal. I know you understand this smaller. Consequently there is hope that those who can't see, can see, lest we take credit for seeing. After all Abraham himself begat both sons, but in reality was it not God?

Yes.

As to 'vessels' that is another matter entirely (your reference above,) and one of the most heated and divisive discussions in theology, and yes to that also, BY DIVINE DESIGN. (Romans 9)

The short version. Vessels of dishonor can't see, period. Vessels of honor, even if they can't shall receive Divine Mercy anyway.

These are in fact the TWO covenants. The law against works and workers of the flesh, the vessels of dishonor, the covenant of LAW, even though applying against these same vessels the LAW can not be heard or obeyed.

For the vessels of honor, the Covenant of the Promise is only for them, the covenant of the first can not be applied to them.

Yet both covenants apply to every believer, as Paul taught.

To get a closer look, go to 2 Tim. 2:20-21 and see that 'we' as believers are to divide/purge from the vessel of dishonor in order to be 'fit for the Master's use.' This fact places 'a vessel of dishonor' with us, a 'son of the flesh' so to speak just as Abraham produced. That son will not be blessed and can not be under the Covenant of the Promise.

It is both simple and complex, because the factual tensions reside right here, as Paul showed in personal applications:

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Every 'flesh reader and understander' of this matter will see 'the other guy' as Ishmael and themselves as 'Isaac, the son of Promise.'

The fact of this matter is that BOTH were produce of ABRAHAM. Therefore BOTH are the produce of those in the faith.

Paul delineates this matter quite well in applicability to the believer on the 'born of the flesh' fact in Galatians 5 warning every 'believer' to understand the difference.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest,

I would even note the particular term applied in the plural YE indicating the 'son of the flesh and the son of promise' BOTH vessels in ONE lump.

Divide here and it's easy to see. But the 'son of the flesh' goes kicking and screaming into this disclosure, just as Esau cried to NO USE whatsoever for his inheritance.

Adam had two sons that defined this matter.
Abraham had two sons that defined this matter.
Isaac had two sons that defined this matter.
Jacob had two sons that defined this matter.
Joseph had two sons that defined this matter.
Moses had two sons that defined this matter.

I could list several more, but if one does not understand the basic principle 'personally applied' they can't even enter the other showings without falling flat on their faces in confusions as it is simply not meant for them to see, at least at this time, as it will remain pointless to them.

s

 

[childeye]

Yes.

As to 'vessels' that is another matter entirely (your reference above,) and one of the most heated and divisive discussions in theology, and yes to that also, BY DIVINE DESIGN. (Romans 9)

The short version. Vessels of dishonor can't see, period. Vessels of honor, even if they can't shall receive Divine Mercy anyway.

These are in fact the TWO covenants. The law against works and workers of the flesh, the vessels of dishonor, the covenant of LAW, even though applying against these same vessels the LAW can not be heard or obeyed.

For the vessels of honor, the Covenant of the Promise is only for them, the covenant of the first can not be applied to them.

Yet both covenants apply to every believer, as Paul taught.

To get a closer look, go to 2 Tim. 2:20-21 and see that 'we' as believers are to divide/purge from the vessel of dishonor in order to be 'fit for the Master's use.' This fact places 'a vessel of dishonor' with us, a 'son of the flesh' so to speak just as Abraham produced. That son will not be blessed and can not be under the Covenant of the Promise.

It is both simple and complex, because the factual tensions reside right here, as Paul showed in personal applications:

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Every 'flesh reader and understander' of this matter will see 'the other guy' as Ishmael and themselves as 'Isaac, the son of Promise.'

The fact of this matter is that BOTH were produce of ABRAHAM. Therefore BOTH are the produce of those in the faith.

Paul delineates this matter quite well in applicability to the believer on the 'born of the flesh' fact in Galatians 5 warning every 'believer' to understand the difference.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest,

I would even note the particular term applied in the plural YE indicating the 'son of the flesh and the son of promise' BOTH vessels in ONE lump.

Divide here and it's easy to see. But the 'son of the flesh' goes kicking and screaming into this disclosure, just as Esau cried to NO USE whatsoever for his inheritance.

Adam had two sons that defined this matter.
Abraham had two sons that defined this matter.
Isaac had two sons that defined this matter.
Jacob had two sons that defined this matter.
Joseph had two sons that defined this matter.
Moses had two sons that defined this matter.

I could list several more, but if one does not understand the basic principle 'personally applied' they can't even enter the other showings without falling flat on their faces in confusions as it is simply not meant for them to see, at least at this time, as it will remain pointless to them.

s

What can I say to all this? It is for God's Glory and my sin is the canvass upon which He does His exquisite painting. I'm glad He covered it with something so marvelous to behold. Incidentally Esau did benefit from his brother getting the blessing, and probably moreso than Jacob would have, if Esau would have obtained it.

 

[JMJ]

I honestly don't believe the RCC gives a whole truth on these matters. Why? They suppose 'free' will. I haven't been able yet to make my own supposed 'free' will not be tempted. What's up with that? If our will is free, why are we then tempted within our minds?

If you prefer sunshine rather than rain, why can't you make the sun shine upon you constantly? In other words, some of the things we desire are not within our own power to control. God is sovereign. He allows us to be tempted in order for us to prove our allegiance to Him.



Jesus and Satan are in a battle to win our souls. Jesus wants us in heaven with Him for eternity. Satan wants us in hell with him for eternity.

By His sacrificial death, Jesus leveled the playing field for us and restored to us the possibility of entering into eternal life that Adam lost for all of us by his sin. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom which was a holding place for the righteous dead because the gate to heaven was barred/locked due to Adam's sin. Jesus' sacrificial death re-opened the gate to heaven and now all the people who were in Abraham's bosom (limbo of the Father’s) are now in heaven. The gate to heaven remains open today for all people who die in Christ.

A person's will is free to choose between good and evil (if the person is of sound mind and he is not forcibly coerced by someone else). Temptation until death is the test we all must pass in order to be approved to enter into eternal life.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Temptation comes to us in many forms.

Romans 7:18-20 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Galatians 5:16-18 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.â€

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

For example, persons who are committing fornication or adultery are not walking according to the Spirit. They are walking according to the flesh and so the Holy Spirit is not living within them. Since the Holy Spirit is not living within them, they will not inherit eternal life if they die unrepentant. The Holy Spirit's presence within the soul at the time of death is the only guarantee that a person will inherit eternal life. If the Holy Spirit is not present in the person's soul at the time of his death, God will not know him as one of His own and so he will be condemned to hell. If God does not see His Spirit living within us at the time of death, we are condemned to hell.

Our spirit is at war with our flesh, but the indwelling Holy Spirit helps us to obey God.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Satan tempts us to sin. We freely choose to either obey him or resist him.

1 Peter 5:8-10 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

Joshua 24:14-15 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.â€

Who is the law for says he?

Why, for the lawless says I. But since we all have sin are we factually not all lawless, since sin is transgression of the law? Therefore the law is unto all of us as in 'against our lawlessness.'


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Righteousness is the opposite of lawlessness.

A person who is led by the Spirit is not judged by the law. A person who is led by the Spirit does not sin which means that he chooses to not sin.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

A person who is truly walking in the Spirit chooses to do good rather than to do evil. There is no law/commandment against helping your neighbor. There are laws/commandments against harming your neighbor.

James 2:8-9 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,†you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

A person who chooses to sin the sin of adultery is judged by this commandment.

Sin is lawlessness. But, there is a degree of seriousness pertaining to each sin. There are sins not leading to death and so a person who sins this degree of sin does not lose his righteousness. There are sins leading to death and so a person who sins this degree of sin (i.e. adultery or fornication) does lose his righteousness and if he does not repent before death, he will not inherit eternal life.

 

[JMJ]

My point is that the laws are shadows of what is the substance. They are just analogies of what Love does. The deeper discourse is that God is the goodness in us.

God authored no laws against doing good to a neighbor. God authored laws against doing harm to a neighbor. God is all good. All that is good in us is of God.

Regarding Mark 7:10-13, Jesus is simply saying that to follow the law to the letter for the sake of the letter is contradictory. I take it you agree with this?

Yes, I agree.

 

[JMJ]

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished” and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!” as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

I agree with you.

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Jesus fulfilled all the Old Covenant Law. It is no longer in force. He finished the Old Covenant (every jot and tittle) and simultaneously ratified His New Covenant with His sacrificial death on the cross.

Hebrews 9:15-17 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

 

[smaller]

If you prefer sunshine rather than rain, why can't you make the sun shine upon you constantly? In other words, some of the things we desire are not within our own power to control. God is sovereign. He allows us to be tempted in order for us to prove our allegiance to Him.

I certainly accept that. You miss the point of temptation altogether. This categorically places 'temptation of the tempter' within.

So, is the tempter then Graced, legally obedient, faithful? Sorry, that doesn't happen.

Word can be TRUE to us as believers and AGAINST that which is 'in us' simultaneously.

Jesus and Satan are in a battle to win our souls. Jesus wants us in heaven with Him for eternity. Satan wants us in hell with him for eternity.

When a believer is 'led' in Truth by Truth to see their factual condition, they will never mistake the TWO WORKINGS of God in Christ and in His Words by His Spirit.

By His sacrificial death, Jesus leveled the playing field for us and restored to us the possibility of entering into eternal life that Adam lost for all of us by his sin. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom which was a holding place for the righteous dead because the gate to heaven was barred/locked due to Adam's sin. Jesus' sacrificial death re-opened the gate to heaven and now all the people who were in Abraham's bosom (limbo of the Father’s) are now in heaven. The gate to heaven remains open today for all people who die in Christ.

It is quite an 'easy' matter to heap upon ourselves all and only the 'good things' and the 'pleasant Words' of God in Christ. It is quite another to realize and to see that every dire Word also applies to that which we 'all' carry in our hearts. This is where 'all' sects divert and divide, in failing to discern this matter. All such views remain lukewarm, mixed, undivided, the seas of confusions.

When God divided the Red Sea, Israel veered neither to the right or to the left. They walked in the DIVISION of those waters.

This is a physical depiction. Of what? None of us can veer entirely into the WATERS of only good because of what we carry. None of us can veer entirely into the WATERS of bad, because we are Gods Children.

There is a requirement to walk on 'dry land' between these two measures.

There are many such physical pictures of Spiritual Realities. Those who are not used to seeing this way will not and can not understand. They will only see 'physically' or 'naturally.'

A person's will is free to choose between good and evil (if the person is of sound mind and he is not forcibly coerced by someone else). Temptation until death is the test we all must pass in order to be approved to enter into eternal life.

Our will can not logically speak for the will and actions of the TEMPTER. Many 'sects' present free will, as if their will can keep them from thoughts of the tempter within. That doesn't happen, and it can't by The Word of God. God in Christ SAID that where the Word is sown, SATAN enters the heart. The instant a believer hears these WORDS and denies that it happens to them, they have in fact been stolen from by SATAN. And their 'supposed' free will doesn't even know of the theft or perceive that it happened. Why? Because this is a Spiritual matter. It is not perceived by a natural man, nor can a natural man speak this as a personal fact. They remain blinded to the open and the obvious.

Temptation comes to us in many forms.

For example, persons who are committing fornication or adultery are not walking according to the Spirit. They are walking according to the flesh and so the Holy Spirit is not living within them. Since the Holy Spirit is not living within them, they will not inherit eternal life if they die unrepentant.

Jesus 'magnified' the Law and showed us that even the 'thought' of adultery is the committing of same. Why don't you measure 'internally?' If you do you will find 'evil sin thoughts' without any doubt if you are walking 'honestly.' When you see those thoughts are sin, and that sin is of the DEVIL, you will learn to 'divide' from those matters, even while 'having them' knowing whom they are from.

The Word is again clear. Where the Words, the laws against adultery or covetousness for example are sown, the power of sin, the power of the tempter comes to the fore and tempts internally and in mind with SIN and EVIL thoughts.

Paul lays this matter out quite precisely in Romans 7, landing on the TRUTH that 'evil was present' with him. Bingo. A believer in TRUTH is shown therein.

Paul was not the 'evil present' with him. We as believers are 'not the same' as the tempter.

What avails to us will avail the tempter nothing. Same Word, two different workings.

The Holy Spirit's presence within the soul at the time of death is the only guarantee that a person will inherit eternal life. If the Holy Spirit is not present in the person's soul at the time of his death, God will not know him as one of His own and so he will be condemned to hell. If God does not see His Spirit living within us at the time of death, we are condemned to hell.

The fact is you can not even discern your own salvation until you die according to your teachers and teachings. I have no use in listening to those who do not know their state. Such can not logically claim anything because they don't even know themselves if they are even saved. The salvation you claim is only guesswork on your part that can be entirely LOST in a moment at the end of your life and perhaps you were never meant to be saved in that case and everything you presented could have very well been a deception.

Our spirit is at war with our flesh, but the indwelling Holy Spirit helps us to obey God.

You still don't get the picture. The Holy Spirit will agitate the spirit of disobedience by nature of the disobedience, proving that spirit of disobedience is 'within us.'

What avails to us as believers actually 'empowers' the spirit of disobedience to resist. This factual tension is meant to bring a RIFT within our hearts. A 'division.'

We 'rend' our hearts in this process within. That is 'why' the Law must be within our hearts, because that is where 'evil and sin' thoughts reside, and they do so of the tempter in response to The Word.

Satan tempts us to sin. We freely choose to either obey him or resist him.

You still don't get the picture, and in fact you can't. You will 'excuse' the tempters sins and evil thoughts within, thinking that somehow they are not sins and that the tempter is not therein your heart doing such things. These 'kinds' of internal blindness are actually courtesy of the tempter over that persons mind and heart, covering it up and excusing the tempter within them and claiming that such evil wicked sinning thoughts are not sins, not there, not of the tempter. That is 'all' the activity of the tempter in such carriers. They are simply not 'truthful.'

There is a measure that Paul put forth:

2 Corinthians 13:7
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Paul understood these matters quite clearly. He knew 'why' he was 'as reprobate.' We factually have 'internal sin.' We are not to let that 'rule' over us by having such thoughts extend to first, our words, then our deeds, as that is the track to slaveship of the DEVIL.

The knowledge of evil today was no different than in the Garden of Eden. That knowledge of EVIL is meant to be 'contained' in Spiritual FRUIT hanging from OUR TREE. It has been 'ingested' in MAN. That is now 'where' it is to be dealt with and 'contained.'

Righteousness is the opposite of lawlessness.

You are welcome to apply all the white and rosy paint on the outside as you wish. I am not interested in 'internal deception.'

A person who is led by the Spirit is not judged by the law. A person who is led by the Spirit does not sin which means that he chooses to not sin.

Utter absurd fallacies. These are not just questions about 'us alone.'

Here is what Paul himself taught us about our factual conditions:

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This is not about 'us' and the other people. It is the factual condition in which 'every believer' now stands.

Paul taught the exact same thing here:

Romans 9:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It's the SAME picture as Galatians 4:29.

Yet 'believers' just can't see it. Go figure! Who then is OVER lording them?

Paul taught that 'we' as believers are to divide or purge ourselves from that VESSEL:

2 Tim. 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

But you see if one has 'no clue' that they even have such a vessel, how are they to purge/divide? They can't. They simply don't know or perceive these matters, even though they are set right before our own eyes.

Vessels of DIShonour rule over such minds and hearts. I still believe that any such believer is SAVED. They just don't see very well.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Broncobilly1972]

Does it matter what we believe, we believe it so that makes it true? Or does it matter what the Word says?

Have you found grace?
Do you know Jesus is the Christ?
Have you let Hom teach you or have you been taught by other men?

And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight. Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, My presence shall go with thee , and I will give thee rest. (Exodus 33:12-14 KJV)

Now go read Job 24
They cause the naked to lodge without clothing, that they have no covering in the cold. They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter. (Job 24:7, 8 KJV)

The difference is those taught by Christ and those taught by other men.
You want understanding? Who do you go to?

 

[Broncobilly1972]

All I am saying is, if you want to understand, go to the One who is faithful in giving. That is Christ alone, don't lean on another mans understanding. Ask for it, he will give it. Read your bible constantly, keep what you read I your mind constantly, dwell on it. Think about it. Pray about it. Take in what you do understand, then be a sheep, regurgitate it and chew on it again, get more nourishment from it, it's called chewing the cud.

Never give up, He alone is faithful to give what you ask for. If your faithful and importunate in asking.

I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth. (Luke 11:8 KJV)

Read Luke 11, believe it, and be one of His sheep. Get all you can out of it, in sincerity and truth.

 

[JMJ]

I certainly accept that. You miss the point of temptation altogether. This categorically places 'temptation of the tempter' within.

Mark 7:20-22 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

James 4:7-8 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

We can be tempted from within by our own lustful, worldly desires and we can be tempted by others (other humans and devils). Temptation is common to all men. To be tempted is not a sin. Temptation is one of the sufferings that all mankind is subjected to. What matters is whether a person gives in to the temptation and sins or whether he resists the temptation and thereby overcomes sin.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

1 Peter 5:8-10 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

Acts 14:21-23 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.†23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Jesus 'magnified' the Law and showed us that even the 'thought' of adultery is the committing of same. Why don't you measure 'internally?' If you do you will find 'evil sin thoughts' without any doubt if you are walking 'honestly.' When you see those thoughts are sin, and that sin is of the DEVIL, you will learn to 'divide' from those matters, even while 'having them' knowing whom they are from.

Committing the sin of adultery is definitely worse than wanting to commit the sin of adultery! Jesus Christ was using hyperbole/exaggeration to stress His point that a person thinks about committing the sin and wants to commit the sin before he actually does commit it. At any time before he commits the sin, he can choose to resist the temptation and call on/pray to Jesus Christ to save him from this temptation.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.â€

Jesus Christ explains the different degrees of sin and their corresponding degrees of punishment:

Matthew 5:21-24 You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Anger at another person will be judged. Insulting another person is a venial sin and will be punished. Contempt of another person is a mortal sin and causes condemnation to hell fire unless this sin is repented before death.

Romans 9:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It's the SAME picture as Galatians 4:29.

Long story short, Paul is stating that God is sovereign and we are not to question His ways. We all deserve condemnation. All that we do have is a result of His grace. God did not specifically create some persons for condemnation and others for salvation. He desires for all men to be saved and He died as a ransom for all men.

Vessels of DIShonour rule over such minds and hearts. I still believe that any such believer is SAVED. They just don't see very well.
enjoy!

smaller

Timothy 2:19-21 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,†and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.â€
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

A dishonored vessel (sinful person) must cleanse himself from his sins by confession and repentance in order to become a vessel of honor (righteous person). Only vessels of honor are sanctified and thereby inherit eternal life. Dishonored vessels reap condemnation in hell fire.

Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

 

[smaller]

We can be tempted from within by our own lustful, worldly desires and we can be tempted by others (other humans and devils). Temptation is common to all men. To be tempted is not a sin.

The fact of what defiles us (SIN) is put forth by The Word:

Matt. 15:
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

You may excuse 'evil temptation thoughts' as 'not' SIN. I don't.

IF internal evil thoughts are SIN, then we also see this factual connection:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John+3:8&version=KJV
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil;

The committing is and starts IN THOUGHT form, and the connection can not be delinked from the devil.

Even in the profession of your sect this fact is proclaimed: "Lord, we have SINNED IN THOUGHT, word and deed."

And if we so have sinned, and yes we ALL have and do, then it is OF THE DEVIL.

Temptation is one of the sufferings that all mankind is subjected to. What matters is whether a person gives in to the temptation and sins or whether he resists the temptation and thereby overcomes sin.

Jesus taught us all 'how' this happens:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

THEFT is SIN. It happens within and that SIN is OF SATAN therein.

Paul teaches this 'identical' fact in Romans 7:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Paul has no requirement to fancy dance his way past the obvious. I'm glad for his truthful speaking and revealing of this matter.

Paul's conclusion? Evil was 'present' with him. It's a factual and truthful conclusion.

The unfortunate part is that to speak truthfully, the connection to the DEVIL, to SATAN can not be 'bypassed.' Those who are blinded can not speak that Satan does this in them because it is THE TRUTH and the devil can not speak this TRUTH.

Committing the sin of adultery is definitely worse than wanting to commit the sin of adultery! Jesus Christ was using hyperbole/exaggeration to stress His point that a person thinks about committing the sin and wants to commit the sin before he actually does commit it.

That is what 'your sect' teaches. Jesus said this as a FACT:

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sin is SIN. I agree to the progressive state of capture through word and deed. But the SIN starts and is SIN in thought form FIRST and it is so OF THE TEMPTER reacting adversely to GODS WORDS.

Those who 'excuse and cover' their sins of the tempter are merely making EXCUSES FOR THE DEVIL and have been led to do that by same.

At any time before he commits the sin, he can choose to resist the temptation and call on/pray to Jesus Christ to save him from this temptation.

Spin it and cover it and excuse the TEMPTER the DEVIL, SATAN any way you please.

You as a believer can be forgiven. The tempter never was and never will be forgiven.

Jesus Christ explains the different degrees of sin and their corresponding degrees of punishment:

There is only one wage for SIN. Death.

Anger at another person will be judged. Insulting another person is a venial sin and will be punished. Contempt of another person is a mortal sin and causes condemnation to hell fire unless this sin is repented before death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death

Long story short, Paul is stating that God is sovereign and we are not to question His ways. We all deserve condemnation.

Go back through those scripture citings on the 'vessels' again with the facts of the tempter within and you should see clearly who the 'vessel of dishonor' is.

But those who remain blinded by same will not and can not see it for all the tea in China, as God has not raised the vessel of honor to SEE. It is only Gods Election who will see and who will remain blinded to the fact.

I bow to His Determination in the expectation and hope that 'all men' will see and 'all men of sin' be utterly DAMNED.

enjoy!

s

 

[Adullam]

There are many people that say they lift up Christ, yet scorn and reject Gods Law which comes from love. It is nothing but a snare from evil they have fallen into which has been set up to excuse sin, the Law shows Gods love for man in His gift of the Sabbath and how to love God back and our fellowman, and by showing us His love in sending prophets and teachers to explain and illustrate His Law. Here is a excellent explanation of this issue:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

"What a contrast between the words of Christ, and the language of those who claim that he came to abrogate the law of God and to do away with the Old Testament. Our Saviour, who knew all things, understood the wiles of Satan, the snares by which he would seek to entrap the children of men, and so made this positive statement to meet the questioning doubts and the blind unbelief of all coming time.

But there is a law which was abolished, which Christ "took out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Paul calls it "the law of commandments contained in ordinances." This ceremonial law, given by God through Moses, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be binding upon the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings and services were to be abolished. Paul and the other apostles labored to show this, and resolutely withstood those Judaizing teachers who declared that Christians should observe the ceremonial law.

Christ himself declares that he came not to destroy the law of ten precepts, which was spoken from Sinai. He says, "Verily I say unto you,"-- making the assertion as emphatic as possible,--"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." Here he teaches not merely what the claims of God's law had been and were then, but that these claims should hold so long as the heavens and the earth remain. This testimony should forever settle the question. The law of God is as immutable as his throne. It will maintain its claims upon all mankind in all ages, unchanged by time or place or circumstances. The ritual system was of altogether a different character, and typified the death of Christ as a sacrifice for the broken precepts of the moral law. "I am not come to destroy," Christ says, "but to fulfill,"--"to magnify the law and make it honorable," as Isaiah, hundreds of years before, had prophesied respecting the Messiah's work.

"To fulfill the law." In his own life the Saviour gave the children of men an example of perfect obedience. In his teachings he made clear and distinct every precept of the divine law; he swept away the rubbish of erroneous tradition with which the Jews had encumbered it; he illustrated and enforced its principles, and showed in all its particulars the length and breadth and height and depth of the righteousness required by the law of God.

The Pharisees were dissatisfied with the teachings of Christ. The practical godliness which he enjoined condemned them. They desired him to dwell upon the external observances of the ceremonial law, and the customs and traditions of the fathers. But Jesus taught the spiritual nature of the law and made clear its far-reaching claims. Love to God and to men must live in the heart and control the life, as the spring of every thought and every action.

There is perfect harmony between the law of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. "I and my Father are one," says the great Teacher. The gospel is the good news of grace, or favor, by which man may be released from the condemnation of sin, and enabled to render acceptable obedience to the law. The gospel points to the moral code as a rule of life. That law, by its demands for undeviating obedience, is continually pointing the sinner to the gospel for pardon and peace. Says the great apostle, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the law." And again he declares that the "law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Enjoining supreme love to God, and equal love to our fellow-men, it is indispensable alike to human happiness and the glory of God.

There are persons professing to be ministers of Christ, who declare with the utmost assurance that no man ever did or ever can keep the law of God. But, according to the Scriptures, Christ "took upon himself our nature," and "was made in fashion as a man." He was man's example, man's representative, and he declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." All who are in Christ will follow the example of Christ. All who justify the sinner in his transgression of God's law belong to that class of whom our Saviour said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven." They can have no part with Him who came to magnify the law and make it honorable. They are deceiving the people with their sophistry, saying to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee," when God has declared, "The soul that sinneth [transgresseth the law] it shall die."...

Christ foresaw that men would not only break the commandments of God themselves, but would teach others to break them. Some are not content with doing this by example; they defend sin, and pervert the word of God to justify the transgressor. Such persons will have no part with the people of God. But the greatest guilt rests upon the professed watchmen, who do not hesitate to speak evil of the law, and even to make those who are ignorant of the Bible believe that they are fallen from grace if they keep it. "All we have to do," say they, "is to believe in Christ, come to Christ." But they forget that when Christ came the people accepted, repented and turned from sin.

The most fatal delusion of the Christian world in this generation is, that in pouring contempt on the law of God they think they are exalting Christ. What a position! It was Christ who spoke the law from Sinai. It was Christ who gave the law to Moses, engraven on tables of stone. It was his Father's law; and Christ says, "I and my Father are one." The Pharisees held the reverse of the modern position, but were in just as great an error. They rejected Christ, but exalted the law. And it makes little difference which position is taken, so long as we ignore the true one,--that faith in Christ must be accompanied by obedience to the law of God......God's law is a copy of His mind and will. The sins forbidden there could never find a place in Heaven. It was love that prompted God to express his will in the ten precepts of the decalogue. Afterward he showed his love for man by sending prophets and teachers to explain and illustrate his holy Law. God has given man a complete rule of life in his law. Obeyed, man shall live by it, through the merits of Christ. Transgressed, it has power to condemn. The law sends men to Christ, and Christ points them back to the Law.....

The law is indeed the indicator of righteousness, and will remain so until the new heavens and new earth are created.

Are we bringing every thought to captivity in Christ? If we are not, then we are transgressing the law.

 

[JMJ]

The fact of what defiles us (SIN) is put forth by The Word:

Matt. 15:
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

You may excuse 'evil temptation thoughts' as 'not' SIN. I don't.

IF internal evil thoughts are SIN, then we also see this factual connection:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John+3:8&version=KJV
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil;

The committing is and starts IN THOUGHT form, and the connection can not be delinked from the devil.

Even in the profession of your sect this fact is proclaimed: "Lord, we have SINNED IN THOUGHT, word and deed."

And if we so have sinned, and yes we ALL have and do, then it is OF THE DEVIL.

Jesus taught us all 'how' this happens:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

You misunderstood my point. The temptation to sin is not a sin. What is a sin is giving in to the temptation and committing the sin; whether in thought, word, or deed. Jesus overcame Satan's temptation to sin and so Jesus did not sin.

Jesus was lead into the wilderness by the Spirit so that He could be tempted by Satan. Jesus never sinned even though He was tempted to sin by Satan.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

A person sins in/by his thoughts when he takes pleasure in thinking of doing harm to another person or else when he is happy when he learns that another person has had a misfortune of one sort or another.

A person sins in/by his words when he lies about another person.

A person sins in/by his deeds or actions when he harms another person.

Not all temptations to sin come from the devil. Many come from our own lusts for pleasures of various sorts...."For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...." Our inward temptations can be caused as a consequence of Adam's first sin.

THEFT is SIN. It happens within and that SIN is OF SATAN therein.

Paul teaches this 'identical' fact in Romans 7:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Paul has no requirement to fancy dance his way past the obvious. I'm glad for his truthful speaking and revealing of this matter.

Paul's conclusion? Evil was 'present' with him. It's a factual and truthful conclusion.

Evil that is present can be from within or from without or both.

Temptations are common to all mankind. These temptations are not from God, but they are used as tests to see if we will remain loyal to Jesus Christ's gospel or not.

1 Thessalonians 2:4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

If there is no law against a certain action being a sin, then there can be no sin when the action is commenced and completed. So, if God had no law against theft, then there would be no sin accrued to the person who steals. However, God does have a law against stealing, so anyone who steals is transgressing the law that is against stealing.

The unfortunate part is that to speak truthfully, the connection to the DEVIL, to SATAN can not be 'bypassed.' Those who are blinded can not speak that Satan does this in them because it is THE TRUTH and the devil can not speak this TRUTH.



That is what 'your sect' teaches. Jesus said this as a FACT:

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Sin is SIN. I agree to the progressive state of capture through word and deed. But the SIN starts and is SIN in thought form FIRST and it is so OF THE TEMPTER reacting adversely to GODS WORDS.

Those who 'excuse and cover' their sins of the tempter are merely making EXCUSES FOR THE DEVIL and have been led to do that by same.

Spin it and cover it and excuse the TEMPTER the DEVIL, SATAN any way you please.

You as a believer can be forgiven. The tempter never was and never will be forgiven.

I don't excuse Satan, but I also do not give him credit when it is not due him.

Two persons are in a battle for each individual soul: Jesus and Satan. In the end, each one of us will belong to either one or the other for eternity.

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

IF a person resists the temptation of Satan to sin, he remains steadfast in his faith. But, if he gives in to Satan's temptation to sin, he stumbles and falls and he is no longer steadfast in the faith. He has fallen away from the faith.

2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

So, when we are righteous, we belong to Christ. When we sin spiritually deadly sins, we belong to Satan. This battle between Christ and Satan for each person's soul begins at his birth and ends at his death. Ezekiel 33:12-20, Romans 6:15-19

There is only one wage for SIN. Death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death

I agree. We reap what we sow.

Galatians 6:7-8 "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."

Go back through those scripture citings on the 'vessels' again with the facts of the tempter within and you should see clearly who the 'vessel of dishonor' is.

But those who remain blinded by same will not and can not see it for all the tea in China, as God has not raised the vessel of honor to SEE. It is only Gods Election who will see and who will remain blinded to the fact.

I bow to His Determination in the expectation and hope that 'all men' will see and 'all men of sin' be utterly DAMNED.

enjoy!

s

A person who will be included as one of God's elect on Judgment Day was already chosen according to God's foreknowledge of this person's future actions before he was born. God did not arbitrarily choose some men to save and some to damn.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

[smaller]

You misunderstood my point. The temptation to sin is not a sin.

Jesus said otherwise. You have been sold a lie on this matter. A sin thought is a sin. The penalty of sin, EVEN as a mere sin/evil thought is DEATH. There is no negotiation available.

Jesus was lead into the wilderness by the Spirit so that He could be tempted by Satan. Jesus never sinned even though He was tempted to sin by Satan.

With one very vital difference. Satan had nothing 'in Him.' None of the balance of us have that measure. The temptation of Jesus was external in nature, not 'internal' as ours is.

A person sins in/by his thoughts when he takes pleasure in thinking of doing harm to another person or else when he is happy when he learns that another person has had a misfortune of one sort or another.

Again, you have merely been soft soaped about sin. You excuse your sinful evil thoughts until you 'do X' with them, you will claim they are not sin, you will claim those sins to not be of the tempter.

All of those types of actions are actually BY the tempter in peoples minds, lying like crazy therein. And the actions of excuses and coverups are predictable excuses IN MIND that the tempter uses to cover up his pawns.

Evil that is present can be from within or from without or both.

Well, you see Paul spoke openly of having evil and even A DEVIL.

In all your sect's teachings you won't find a single one of them who can speak this fact for themselves. Not a one. They will dance around just like they teach you to do.

If there is no law against a certain action being a sin, then there can be no sin when the action is commenced and completed.

You have to be kidding me! Don't you know our conscience speaks to good and evil as well? If we know that we should do good and don't do it, it is a SIN.

I don't excuse Satan, but I also do not give him credit when it is not due him.

Nah, sorry. Your positions have excuses and coverups at every turn. All used to dodge the fact of the tempters operations in heart and mind. I understand quite well. Stood there myself for a long time.

Believers don't really care to hear much of this particular matter.

There is no wonder about why that is. The religious arena is a fertile place to raise up hypocrisy.

s

 

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Jesus said otherwise. You have been sold a lie on this matter. A sin thought is a sin. The penalty of sin, EVEN as a mere sin/evil thought is DEATH. There is no negotiation available.

Did a hungry Jesus sin when the devil tempted Him to sin (He told Jesus to command stones to turn to bread, which was not His Father's will for Him to do)?

No, He did not. Jesus thought about what the devil said and as a result Jesus did not choose to sin. He did not command stones to turn into bread.

Modern Example:

A nasty-acting person calls Bob a foul name. Bob immediately has a thought that he'd like to punch this nasty person. However, as soon as this evil temptation thought becomes conscious to him, he stops this temptation by rejecting this desire. Instead he prays for the person who has offended him. He does not sin. He resisted the temptation to wish harm to his neighbor. He stopped his desire to punch this person, rejected it, and became an over-comer by praying for his neighbor.

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

With one very vital difference. Satan had nothing 'in Him.' None of the balance of us have that measure. The temptation of Jesus was external in nature, not 'internal' as ours is.

I disagree. Jesus was tempted just as we all are. The only difference is that He never sinned, but none of us can make this claim.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Again, you have merely been soft soaped about sin. You excuse your sinful evil thoughts until you 'do X' with them, you will claim they are not sin, you will claim those sins to not be of the tempter.

All of those types of actions are actually BY the tempter in peoples minds, lying like crazy therein. And the actions of excuses and coverups are predictable excuses IN MIND that the tempter uses to cover up his pawns.

The degree of sinfulness for each of our thoughts is for God alone to judge. We must all strive to be pure in thought, word, and action/work/deed.

Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

Well, you see Paul spoke openly of having evil and even A DEVIL.

In all your sect's teachings you won't find a single one of them who can speak this fact for themselves. Not a one. They will dance around just like they teach you to do.

Paul was not possessed by a devil. To what scripture about Paul are you referring?

Satan means adversary. Peter was called Satan by Jesus, but Peter was not possessed by a devil. Out of his love for Jesus, he was adverse to Jesus' assertion that He would die.

I do know that Paul spoke about his spirit warring with evil (unlawful desires of his flesh).

Galatians 5:16-18 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law..

If you obey the Spirit (if you follow His leading), you choose to not sin. There is no law against doing good!

Ephesians 4:26-28 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.

Romans 7:18-20 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

A person becomes a slave of his own choosing. If he chooses to do good works, he is a slave of righteousness and is spiritually alive in Christ. If he chooses to do evil, he is a slave of the devil and is dead spiritually.


Mark 7:20-23 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

You have to be kidding me! Don't you know our conscience speaks to good and evil as well? If we know that we should do good and don't do it, it is a SIN.

You misunderstood what I said. I was referring to laws that had to be obeyed in the Old Testament, but are no longer in force in the New Testament and so do not have to be obeyed. Where there is no law, there can be no sin.

I agree with you that there are both sins of omission and sins of commission.

Nah, sorry. Your positions have excuses and coverups at every turn. All used to dodge the fact of the tempters operations in heart and mind. I understand quite well. Stood there myself for a long time.

Satan tempts us to sin.

1 Peter 5:8-9 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

Our own desire for things tempts us to sin.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Believers don't really care to hear much of this particular matter.

There is no wonder about why that is. The religious arena is a fertile place to raise up hypocrisy.

s

Everyone has a conscience. Every person is required to form his conscience according to the laws of God. There are many people who do not have correctly formed consciences. But, this arena is for God to judge.

Matthew 7:2-5 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

I choose to not think about the speck in my brother's eye, I'll just think about how to remove the plank in my own eye. :D

 

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Did a hungry Jesus sin when the devil tempted Him to sin (He told Jesus to command stones to turn to bread, which was not His Father's will for Him to do)? No, He did not. Jesus thought about what the devil said and as a result Jesus did not choose to sin. He did not command stones to turn into bread.

Tempted as we are with one vital difference:

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

There is no comparison to make.

I disagree. Jesus was tempted just as we all are. The only difference is that He never sinned, but none of us can make this claim.

I'd say that difference would be a vital point. God in Flesh without sin is quite a different measure than the balance of us.

The degree of sinfulness for each of our thoughts is for God alone to judge. We must all strive to be pure in thought, word, and action/work/deed.

I agree that is the bait that is dangled by the freewill camp, but they seem to fail to see that this means their own freewill has to make them GOD to do so. I don't buy that whatsoever nor is it even possible.

Paul was not possessed by a devil. To what scripture about Paul are you referring?

Who said anything about possession? Paul had a devil in his flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7.

So what? Paul was a child of God regardless of that presence.

Did Paul's supposed 'freewill' speak for the presence of evil or that devil in his flesh? Nope. Nor did he extend the possibility of Grace to that devil or excuse the presence of evil from himself.

Satan means adversary. Peter was called Satan by Jesus, but Peter was not possessed by a devil. Out of his love for Jesus, he was adverse to Jesus' assertion that He would die.

Peter wasn't Satan nor could Peter be Satan. Satan certainly spoke from Peter though didn't he? Satan also 'entered' Judas.

I do know that Paul spoke about his spirit warring with evil (unlawful desires of his flesh).

Paul not only said he did evil, but that evil was present with him. (Romans 7)

If you obey the Spirit (if you follow His leading), you choose to not sin. There is no law against doing good!

As noted prior the wishes of Paul did not extend to the devil in Paul's flesh nor would Paul's choice mean anything to the will of the tempter.

A person becomes a slave of his own choosing. If he chooses to do good works, he is a slave of righteousness and is spiritually alive in Christ. If he chooses to do evil, he is a slave of the devil and is dead spiritually.

Again, that is the bait that is dangled out by the freewill camp, but they utterly fail to recognize that evil sin thoughts inserted by the tempter are SIN and that their supposed 'freewill' utterly fails to stop that from transpiring.

So they gloss over the fact that the tempters thoughts are evil and sin within their heart and mind and they excuse the tempter for doing so in themselves.

I call it 'typical coverup and excuses.'

You misunderstood what I said. I was referring to laws that had to be obeyed in the Old Testament, but are no longer in force in the New Testament and so do not have to be obeyed. Where there is no law, there can be no sin.

Don't know where you might have been sold that fantasy.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world

The Law exposed the presence of SIN. Still does.

I agree with you that there are both sins of omission and sins of commission.

Satan tempts us to sin.

Why then don't you see those tempting evil sin thoughts as sin? Jesus did. Read it in Matt. 5 about adultery and the thought of same. Why provide 'excuses and coverups' for this not being a sin when Jesus said it is sin?

Our own desire for things tempts us to sin.

Why would you extract the tempter from being involved and only blame man? Perhaps that too is a working of the tempter in those claimants not wanting to link the tempter to their own 'mind and heart sin?'

Sin is of the devil. If the thought of adultery is a sin, then it is connected to the tempter, the devil.

Everyone has a conscience. Every person is required to form his conscience according to the laws of God. There are many people who do not have correctly formed consciences. But, this arena is for God to judge.

Every believer has 'an evil conscience' that they must be sprinkled from:

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We are all 'exercised' in our senses by both good and evil:

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

You think that temptation is LESS for believers? Ha!

I choose to not think about the speck in my brother's eye, I'll just think about how to remove the plank in my own eye. :D

Nah, you just ignore that they are blinded by the god of this world, condemn them only, ignore the work of the tempter in your own mind and heart, and say you have no beam?

lol

I have my own beam to deal with. The specs of others are just that. There is another worker to see. I have no use overlooking the obvious culprit in any of these matters. Those who do overlook the tempter in their theology are missing a pretty big part of the equations. Such equations usually come with statement of 'I am personally exempt' and 'it's always the other people's fault.' Such are instantly shown to not have a full theological deck when the tempter is void in their equations.

enjoy!

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