can protestants go to heaven??

[stray bullet]

Roman Catholicism has been around for around 1650 years. Believers have been called Christians since Antioch around 2000 years ago. Those believers who have faith in Jesus Christ have been baptized after their baptism of the Holy Spirit after hearing the Word of God. Those who have been baptized as infants must someday make a confession of their belief, and then baptized to signify their obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ, not the Roman Catholic Church.

They were called Christians in Antioch, which was under the Catholic Church. At that time, it was under the jurisdiction of the See of Antioch, established by Peter.

What do you think happened to the Church of the New Testament? What about all those regional Churches, bishops, deacons and apostles?

The Catholic Church could not start in 350AD because you can see references to it from the first Century. In fact, the term "Catholic Church' was used in the first Century. We have lists of who was in charge of various Churches, even the Popes, all the way back to Christ.

The Catholic Church started at Pentecost, after the Resurrection- when the Holy Spirit fell upon the apostles.

 

[stray bullet]

" . . . bound in heaven. Upon one He builds His Church, and to the same He says after His resurrection, 'feed My sheep'. And though to all His Apostles He gave an equal power yet did He set up one chair, and disposed the origin and manner of unity by his authority. The other Apostles were indeed what Peter was, but the primacy is given to Peter, and the Church and the chair is shown to be one. And all are pastors, but the flock is shown to be one, which is fed by all the Apostles with one mind and heart. He that holds not this unity of the Church, does he think that he holds the faith? He who deserts the chair of Peter, upon whom the Church is founded, is he confident that he is in the Church?" - Saint Cyprian, North African Bishop, 251 AD

The Catholic Church was not 'created' in 350 AD, nor was the position of Pope.

 

[stray bullet]

One place where the Catholic Church is strong is Spain, which is known for the Spanish Inquisition. I always thought that the Inquisition was ancient history. However, the last official Spanish execution for heresy occurred in 1826. A schoolmaster was hanged because he substituted the phrase "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" ("Hail Mary") during school prayers. (Note 2)

2. Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,†page 308. Paul Johnson is a Catholic.

Unless you have a source, that claim is utterly absurd. No one would be hanged for such a thing.

You are quoting now.

 

[stray bullet]

All that sounds nice and flowery, but I am reading Roman Catholic forums and those dear souls call protestants negative names, especially their favorite name is heretic. I suspect that when those of us who do not pledge allegience to the pope we will be declared as heretics, and beheaded or some other swell act of RC righteousness.

Solo, I have never called you such names or treated you with disrespect. I'm sorry they said such things.

One thing I don't appreciate, hwoever, if you cut and pasting anti-Catholic material here. These people are hatefilled and quite frankly, you seem the type that's better than to give in and regurgitate rabid, foaming the mouth hate.

 

[Solo]

Yes, but instead of understanding what that means, you have reached your own conclusions that has nothing to do with what believe.


It says 'necessary for salvation', not required for salvation, nor "all you need to be saved". You have suggested it says that all one has to do is receive the sacraments and they are saved, when it clearly doesn't say that- and that if one doesn't receive the sacraments for whatever reason, they are not saved.

This has nothing to do with works-based salvation. If you actually read the catechism instead of quoting it from some other source, you would have noticed immediately proceding those lines it said that faith is necessary for salvation as well.

The sacraments are means of receiving grace, by the death of Jesus Christ, which provides the grace necessary for salvation. It does not mean those denied the sacraments won't be saved, but that it is part of the salvation process. If you read the bible, you will clearly see Jesus mentioning baptism and the Eucharist as part of salvation, and that the apostles were given the power to forgive sins.

Salvation a free gift, but it is a process. After all, Paul said he was working out his salvation in fear and trembling- and James tells us without works we are dead.

Our faith must be maintained, our grace kept up. This is done through the sacraments, starting at baptism.

All protestants who are baptized have received a sacrament. So the notion that protestants aren't saved by your reasoning is non-applicable anyways.

All you have to do is read the Roman Catholic Catechism to learn the way of salvation taught by the Roman Catholic Church. Just in case you haven't read it, here it is online.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

Here is another Roman Catholic website that has a picture of the Roman Catholic unrisen Jesus Christ.

http://www.christusrex.org/

 

[Solo]

Solo, I have never called you such names or treated you with disrespect. I'm sorry they said such things.

One thing I don't appreciate, hwoever, if you cut and pasting anti-Catholic material here. These people are hatefilled and quite frankly, you seem the type that's better than to give in and regurgitate rabid, foaming the mouth hate.

I don't post at the Roman Catholic forum because I feel that it is rude and outrageous to go into their forum and post disruptively without invitation. I just read their posts to one another, and they are continually attacking the protestants, calling them heretics. They also do not show many fruits of the Spirit as they converse back and forth. On one forum an adult male individual told a young teenage girl to not listen to her mother, that he had had teenage bisexual encounters, and to go ahead and participate in her lesbian relationship.

 

[Solo]

Unless you have a source, that claim is utterly absurd. No one would be hanged for such a thing.

You are quoting now.

I posted the source. Did you not see it?

Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,†page 308. Paul Johnson is a Catholic.

 

[francisdesales]

One place where the Catholic Church is strong is Spain, which is known for the Spanish Inquisition. I always thought that the Inquisition was ancient history. However, the last official Spanish execution for heresy occurred in 1826. A schoolmaster was hanged because he substituted the phrase "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" ("Hail Mary") during school prayers. (Note 2)

2. Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,†page 308. Paul Johnson is a Catholic.

I have a difficult time believing that, first of all.

And secondly, even if true, this is not indicative of the ENTIRE CATHOLIC CHURCH! Christ said there would be tares among the wheat... None of this, even if true, changes one thing that Christ did by confering the keys to Peter and giving His apostles authority to forgive sins and teach the Gospel infallibly.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

One place where the Catholic Church is strong is Spain, which is known for the Spanish Inquisition. I always thought that the Inquisition was ancient history. However, the last official Spanish execution for heresy occurred in 1826. A schoolmaster was hanged because he substituted the phrase "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" ("Hail Mary") during school prayers. (Note 2)

2. Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,†page 308. Paul Johnson is a Catholic.

I have a difficult time believing that, first of all.

And secondly, even if true, this is not indicative of the ENTIRE CATHOLIC CHURCH! Christ said there would be tares among the wheat... None of this, even if true, changes one thing that Christ did by confering the keys to Peter and giving His apostles authority to forgive sins and teach the Gospel infallibly.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I don't post at the Roman Catholic forum because I feel that it is rude and outrageous to go into their forum and post disruptively without invitation.

:P

WOW!!!

What the heck have you been doing the last few weeks here but stirring the pot?

I see a disconnect between how you act and how you claim to believe in Christ...

Rather than defending your views on Christianity, you find it necessary to attack and try to drag down another Christian group? Is such hatred one of those fruits of the "spirit" you speak about?

Regards

 

[Solo]

I have a difficult time believing that, first of all.

You have a difficult time believing the truth in a myriad of things.

 

[Solo]

:P

WOW!!!

What the heck have you been doing the last few weeks here but stirring the pot?

I see a disconnect between how you act and how you claim to believe in Christ...

Rather than defending your views on Christianity, you find it necessary to attack and try to drag down another Christian group? Is such hatred one of those fruits of the "spirit" you speak about?

Regards

I do not hate any Roman Catholic. If I hated the Roman Catholics, I would just let you all continue in your error as you skip along gleefully on your way to hell. I hate the devil and his false teachings. I love the people that are in the Roman Catholic Church, and it is the love that is the fuel that directs me to continually warn those that are in error of following the doctrines of devils. I do not believe that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are of God; I believe they are of the devil. I have pointed out many, many differences between the Roman Catholic Church teachings and scripture, and the end around run of that is that tradition supercedes scripture; scripture does not contain all of the truth. That is a lie of the devil.

 

[francisdesales]

You have a difficult time believing the truth in a myriad of things.

Interesting comment from someone who hardly knows me... :roll:

 

[francisdesales]

I do not hate any Roman Catholic. If I hated the Roman Catholics, I would just let you all continue in your error as you skip along gleefully on your way to hell.

Wrong. You feel the need to justify your own beliefs that differ from the Catholic Church, so by villifying it and anyone who believes with the Church its teachings, you hope to feel better about your own theological constructs - because, frankly, that is what they are - opinions. By your smear campaign, you merely attempt to justify your own opinions. By your very own beliefs of salvation, ALL Catholics are saved! We ALL believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour! But that isn't enough for you. They must apparently also join some Protestant community and refute Rome to "really" be saved...

I note how deftly you try to ignore any arguments that I make to refute your own beliefs. For example, whatever happened to our discussion on the Scripture as the sole source of our faith? Conveniently forgotten by Solo, because it comes uncomfortably close to destroying his fallible opinions. So you return to smearing the bearer of the truth, the Church (1 Tim 3:15)... You aren't seeking the truth by ignoring my refutation of Sola Scriptura. You are in denial and merely continue your attack. Out of love???

Unless you are infallible, your interpretations of Scriptures are merely that. Interpretations that are subject to mistakes. Fortunately, we as Catholics can know the truth. You depend on yourself.

By your definition, we are all saved. Thanks for your concern...

Regards

 

[Solo]

Wrong. You feel the need to justify your own beliefs that differ from the Catholic Church, so by villifying it and anyone who believes with the Church its teachings, you hope to feel better about your own theological constructs - because, frankly, that is what they are - opinions. By your smear campaign, you merely attempt to justify your own opinions. By your very own beliefs of salvation, ALL Catholics are saved! We ALL believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour! But that isn't enough for you. They must apparently also join some Protestant community and refute Rome to "really" be saved...

I note how deftly you try to ignore any arguments that I make to refute your own beliefs. For example, whatever happened to our discussion on the Scripture as the sole source of our faith? Conveniently forgotten by Solo, because it comes uncomfortably close to destroying his fallible opinions. So you return to smearing the bearer of the truth, the Church (1 Tim 3:15)... You aren't seeking the truth by ignoring my refutation of Sola Scriptura. You are in denial and merely continue your attack. Out of love???

Unless you are infallible, your interpretations of Scriptures are merely that. Interpretations that are subject to mistakes. Fortunately, we as Catholics can know the truth. You depend on yourself.

By your definition, we are all saved. Thanks for your concern...

Regards

You have a very problematic characteristic flaw of false witness in your posting about what I believe, and what my faith is. The scripture refutes the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, not I. The Holy Spirit has inspired the writers of the Scriptures, and also interprets the Scriptures; any doctrines or traditions that are different than the scriptures are from the devil himself.

There are two types of peoples in the world today, Jews and Gentiles. All have the same free gift offered to them through Jesus Christ; Salvation through faith. The Roman Catholic Church teaches another gospel than salvation through faith, they teach salvation through the Roman Catholic Church; very unscriptural.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour, why do you hold yourself in the bondage of the Roman Catholic Church with their false teachings? I suspect that Jesus Christ is not enough for those who refuse to believe the Scriptures over the RCC.

I have given you scriptures and articles that show that the word of God in the Scriptures is the whole revelation of God to mankind on this earth. Anything else whether papal pronouncements or Roman Catholic Church tradition, if it contradicts the Word of God it is false teaching. If you want to continue in this world of false teaching and to keep your faith in the Roman Catholic Church over Jesus Christ, help yourself. Many Roman Catholics have never heard the Salvation offered to them through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and are on their way to an eternity of damnation because of it. Many other ex-Roman Catholics have been freed from the bondage of the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and are now serving the Lord Jesus Christ, and not a man-made institution.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31-32

The word of God says that those that are born of God are saved, and those that are not born of God are not saved. Those who believe that infant baptism saves are under a delusion provided by the god of this world. Satan enjoys those that place their faith in other things rather than Jesus Christ. The Word of God is given to us in the Scriptures.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 1 Timothy 1:5-11

10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth. 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:10-15

 

[Solo]

Interesting comment from someone who hardly knows me... :roll:

I know you by your rejection of the word of God, and by your posts. :wink:

 

[Shvibzik]

The Roman Catholic Church teaches another gospel than salvation through faith, they teach salvation through the Roman Catholic Church; very unscriptural.

The Catholic Church does not reject the truth that one is saved through faith; it teaches that all salvation comes from Christ, just as you believe. Where it differs from your position is in its views of how Christ is manifested to us. You believe that revelation is contained entirely in the Bible alone. The Catholic Church, however, believes in accordance with this same Bible that Christ promised (John 14:16-18) that he would leave the Spirit of Truth with the Church to guide it. Although you would probably argue that "church" refers to the Christian people as a whole, that is not the point I am trying to argue in this particular post. Whether or not you accept that the Church is genuinely guided by Christ, it seems fairly set that the Church requires belief in the Church in about the same way you would require belief in the Bible to prove true belief in Jesus. So yes, the Catholic Church teaches salvation through faith. We just believe that faith in the Church as a tool of God's revelation is as important as faith in the Bible.

 

[Solo]

The Catholic Church does not reject the truth that one is saved through faith; it teaches that all salvation comes from Christ, just as you believe. Where it differs from your position is in its views of how Christ is manifested to us. You believe that revelation is contained entirely in the Bible alone. The Catholic Church, however, believes in accordance with this same Bible that Christ promised (John 14:16-18) that he would leave the Spirit of Truth with the Church to guide it. Although you would probably argue that "church" refers to the Christian people as a whole, that is not the point I am trying to argue in this particular post. Whether or not you accept that the Church is genuinely guided by Christ, it seems fairly set that the Church requires belief in the Church in about the same way you would require belief in the Bible to prove true belief in Jesus. So yes, the Catholic Church teaches salvation through faith. We just believe that faith in the Church as a tool of God's revelation is as important as faith in the Bible.

So then, do you believe that you can be saved and reach the highest of rewards that God has to offer any and all believers without ever having submitted to the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church baptism, and the Roman Catholic Church Eucharist?

I would like for you to support your answer with scripture and the Roman Catholic catechism/papal edict/tradition/counsel and whatever else you hold as equal authority with the word of God (scriptures).

 

[stovebolts]

Please, correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.

Protestants put emphasis on the personal relationship they as individuals have with the holy spirit and put very little emphasis on the community of believers as a whole.

Catholics put emphasis on how the holy spirit fellowships with the community of believers as a whole while assuming the personal relationship with Christ will flourish within the community.

 

[Shvibzik]

So then, do you believe that you can be saved and reach the highest of rewards that God has to offer any and all believers without ever having submitted to the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church baptism, and the Roman Catholic Church Eucharist?

Do you believe that "you can be saved and reach the highest of rewards that God has to offer any and all believers" without having ever "submitted" to the authority of the Bible? If God offers us a means to know him better while on earth, is it quite wise to ignore that?
The Church does teach that non-Catholics can be saved if they seek God faithfully but do not reach true knowledge of the Church as the ordinary means of salvation.

I would like for you to support your answer with scripture and the Roman Catholic catechism/papal edict/tradition/counsel and whatever else you hold as equal authority with the word of God (scriptures).

Okay. From the Catechism:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.