can protestants go to heaven??

[Solo]

So then, do you believe that you can be saved and reach the highest of rewards that God has to offer any and all believers without ever having submitted to the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church baptism, and the Roman Catholic Church Eucharist?

Do you believe that "you can be saved and reach the highest of rewards that God has to offer any and all believers" without having ever "submitted" to the authority of the Bible?

Yes, I believe that one submits to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ when one is born again. After one is born again, the Holy Spirit comes into the believer and dwells within him to guide and teach him from that point on, sealing the believer until the day of redemption.

If God offers us a means to know him better while on earth, is it quite wise to ignore that?

If the deceiver comes and counterfeits the truth of God, what are you to do to test the spirit to validate that the spirit is from God or not?

The Church does teach that non-Catholics can be saved if they seek God faithfully but do not reach true knowledge of the Church as the ordinary means of salvation.

So then then, with that comment, one does not have to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved, and their are other churches that teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus besides the Roman Catholic Church? And protestants are not heretics?

I would like for you to support your answer with scripture and the Roman Catholic catechism/papal edict/tradition/counsel and whatever else you hold as equal authority with the word of God (scriptures).

Okay. From the Catechism:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

[quote:b00c7]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
[/quote:b00c7]
So simply one cannot be saved unless they become a Roman Catholic, because to the Roman Catholic Church, no other Church exists which is the body of Christ except for the Roman Catholic Church, and when such a one comes to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church, then they are saved. From the Roman Catholic Churches perspective, one cannot be born again unless the Roman Catholic Church is involved. The Holy Spirit must work through the Roman Catholic Church when birthing a member into the Kingdom of God, and the Roman Catholic Church is the only body of Christ? Amazing.

From the Roman Catholic catechism at http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ch ... l#CATHOLIC

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[338]

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:12-17

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

The word of God is more authoritative than the catechism, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Shvibzik]

Yes, I believe that one submits to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ when one is born again. After one is born again, the Holy Spirit comes into the believer and dwells within him to guide and teach him from that point on, sealing the believer until the day of redemption.

And you would consider this submission to the Authority of Christ perfectly genuine if one simply vocally "accepted" Jesus Christ and then refused to accept the authority of the Bible? Actions are generally considered to speak louder than words, right? I can say throughout my life the words: "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior," but I could easily be lying. "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Mt. 7:21)

If the deceiver comes and counterfeits the truth of God, what are you to do to test the spirit to validate that the spirit is from God or not?

I could easily ask you the same question. What are you doing in your personal interpretation of the Bible but claiming that the Spirit of God guides you and none of those who oppose your views? It seems slightly presumptuous to assume that you have the Truth although you are in opposition to millions of other Christians. I understand that this does not prove the Truth of the Catholic Church either; I am simply saying that you can't use that argument to criticize the Church until you can prove definitively that your Truth is absolute.

So then then, with that comment, one does not have to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved, and their are other churches that teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus besides the Roman Catholic Church? And protestants are not heretics?

The protestant religion is heretical. That does not preclude the possible existance of protestants who truly believe that their doctrine is the Truth. God in His mercy will not condemn non-Catholics to hell simply because they unknowingly believed doctrine that is only part of the Truth.

So simply one cannot be saved unless they become a Roman Catholic, because to the Roman Catholic Church, no other Church exists which is the body of Christ except for the Roman Catholic Church, and when such a one comes to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church, then they are saved. From the Roman Catholic Churches perspective, one cannot be born again unless the Roman Catholic Church is involved. The Holy Spirit must work through the Roman Catholic Church when birthing a member into the Kingdom of God, and the Roman Catholic Church is the only body of Christ? Amazing.

Yes. Except for in the exceptions that your own quotation from the Catechism pointed out. You have nothing but sarcasm with which to argue against this belief. I see that you think it an absurd idea, but please explain why.


I'll respond to the rest of your post later... I have to work now. :wink:

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:12-17

"There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek." St. Paul is not referring to differences in religion, only to differences in nationality and the equal opportunity for salvation for the Jews and the Gentiles.
"for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " Again, "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Mt. 7:21)
The extent to which one follows the will of God can be a measure of the genuineness of one's "calling upon the Lord." The Church is guided by the Spirit to show the true will of our Heavenly Father, and so one must accept it if one really wants to accept the Lord.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

I don't see how this can be used to refute the claims of the Church. This certainly does mean that Baptism is necessary for salvation.... The Church does not contradict that truth by admitting that non-Christians can sometimes be saved - Baptism of Desire (when one desires Baptism, or seeks the truth with enough earnestness that they would desire baptism if they knew they needed it) sometimes comes into play here.

The word of God is more authoritative than the catechism, wouldn't you agree?

I don't quite know what you mean by that. Could you please explain?

 

[Solo]

Yes, I believe that one submits to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ when one is born again. After one is born again, the Holy Spirit comes into the believer and dwells within him to guide and teach him from that point on, sealing the believer until the day of redemption.

And you would consider this submission to the Authority of Christ perfectly genuine if one simply vocally "accepted" Jesus Christ and then refused to accept the authority of the Bible? Actions are generally considered to speak louder than words, right? I can say throughout my life the words: "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior," but I could easily be lying. "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Mt. 7:21)

You have ignored the portion of my post where I define what being a "genuine" believer is. Let me share with you that important point again for it answers your question.

"Yes, I believe that one submits to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ when one is born again. After one is born again, the Holy Spirit comes into the believer and dwells within him to guide and teach him from that point on, sealing the believer until the day of redemption."

It is by the power of God through the Holy Spirit that a "genuine" believer accepts the Word of God as the final authority. Let me share with you the scriptures referring to this truth:

Psalms 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Luke 8:11-15
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 8:21
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Luke 11:28
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts 8:14
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 11:1
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 13:5
And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

Acts 13:7
Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:26
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Acts 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 17:13
But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

Acts 18:11
And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Acts 19:20
So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1 Thessalonians 1:8
For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Timothy 4:5
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 2:9
Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

2 Peter 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Revelation 1:2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Please show me in the Word of God (scriptures)where they give the same authority to the Church as it does the Word of God.

If the deceiver comes and counterfeits the truth of God, what are you to do to test the spirit to validate that the spirit is from God or not?

I could easily ask you the same question. What are you doing in your personal interpretation of the Bible but claiming that the Spirit of God guides you and none of those who oppose your views? It seems slightly presumptuous to assume that you have the Truth although you are in opposition to millions of other Christians. I understand that this does not prove the Truth of the Catholic Church either; I am simply saying that you can't use that argument to criticize the Church until you can prove definitively that your Truth is absolute.

The Word of God is truth, and the interpretation of the Word of God can be a false interpretation or the interpretation of the Holy Spirit. Those that do not have the Holy Spirit do not know the spiritual things of God for they can not know them because they are natural man, and the things of God are foolish to him. Those who are born again are taught of the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, and have the mind of Christ. Those who are not born again, are not able to understand the spiritual things of God which I speak.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16

So then then, with that comment, one does not have to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved, and their are other churches that teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus besides the Roman Catholic Church? And protestants are not heretics?

The protestant religion is heretical. That does not preclude the possible existance of protestants who truly believe that their doctrine is the Truth. God in His mercy will not condemn non-Catholics to hell simply because they unknowingly believed doctrine that is only part of the Truth.

And where in the scripture does it say that those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, who have been born again of the Holy Spirit, are not children of God unless they uphold the belief system of the Roman Catholic Church? Why would you come on a Christian Forum and call non-Catholics heretics?

So simply one cannot be saved unless they become a Roman Catholic, because to the Roman Catholic Church, no other Church exists which is the body of Christ except for the Roman Catholic Church, and when such a one comes to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church, then they are saved. From the Roman Catholic Churches perspective, one cannot be born again unless the Roman Catholic Church is involved. The Holy Spirit must work through the Roman Catholic Church when birthing a member into the Kingdom of God, and the Roman Catholic Church is the only body of Christ? Amazing.

Yes. Except for in the exceptions that your own quotation from the Catechism pointed out. You have nothing but sarcasm with which to argue against this belief. I see that you think it an absurd idea, but please explain why.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later... I have to work now.

There is not a single bit of sarcasm in my post against those individuals of the Roman Catholic belief. I hold the Word of God as my authority, and not a finite, fallible man who controls the laity as did those of the Nicolaitans which Jesus hates.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:12-17

"There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek." St. Paul is not referring to differences in religion, only to differences in nationality and the equal opportunity for salvation for the Jews and the Gentiles.
"for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " Again, "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Mt. 7:21)
The extent to which one follows the will of God can be a measure of the genuineness of one's "calling upon the Lord." The Church is guided by the Spirit to show the true will of our Heavenly Father, and so one must accept it if one really wants to accept the Lord.

The Holy Spirit will not contradict the scriptures with idol worship, false teachings, unassurance of salvation, unnecessary ritualistic actions to show one has God's grace, and other sacramental traditions invented by man.

The Holy Spirit will not be constrained by the enemy to overcome the believers on this earth regardless of the persecution of political, religious, economic, or social pressures. Man was free from the false teachings of the Jews, and the false teachings of the Gentiles through the blood of Jesus Christ. It is through Christ Jesus that we are saved, not a manmade institution falsely called the Church.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

I don't see how this can be used to refute the claims of the Church. This certainly does mean that Baptism is necessary for salvation.... The Church does not contradict that truth by admitting that non-Christians can sometimes be saved - Baptism of Desire (when one desires Baptism, or seeks the truth with enough earnestness that they would desire baptism if they knew they needed it) sometimes comes into play here.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, not that which is born of water is flesh. This scripture is not talking about water baptism for one to be born again. In fact being born of water is the physical birth that Jesus is speaking of. If he was speaking of baptism, then he would not say that man must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God. A man is born of the flesh, but must also be born of the Spirit in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God.

Those that are baptized as infants are taught that they have been baptized into the Kingdom of God. That teaching is an outright lie from the devil himself.

The word of God is more authoritative than the catechism, wouldn't you agree?

I don't quite know what you mean by that. Could you please explain?

I know that you do not know what I mean, so I will say it plain and simple.

The Word of God is much more authoritative of the truth of God, than the Roman Catholic catechism. The catechism is a set of rules laid down by many, many men who had one reason or another to politically govern the various nations. The use of the religious urges of individuals was a prime way to do just that. Man has been deceived to follow man's traditions and edicts of men, as opposed to obeying the Word of God.

 

[francisdesales]

I know you by your rejection of the word of God, and by your posts. :wink:

Sorry, your interpretation is not the Word of God.

What is it with some of these Protestants here? They think that how they read Scriptures is THE Word of God? How quaint that God speaks to you individually. Have you ever gotten with another Protestant who makes the same claim you do - and find you disagree on this "God-given" interpretation of Scripture?

Don't equate your interpretation of Scriptures with Scriptures themselves. That is the same sin that the Pharisees were guilty of.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The scripture refutes the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, not I. The Holy Spirit has inspired the writers of the Scriptures, and also interprets the Scriptures; any doctrines or traditions that are different than the scriptures are from the devil himself.

Again, the problem is you are equating your personal interpretation of Scriptures as the intent that God has for the Scriptures. Impossible - considering many people just like yourself make the exact same claim - and they all differ! Fortunately, God gave us a Church, a community where we could find the truth and didn't have to find it ourselves by reading a book. According to this idea, very few people before the printing press was invented were saved, since they didn't have the ability to buy and read the Scriptures for themselves. Even today, people in third world countries cannot read. So what happens to this "american" version of the Gospel? It is false.

There are two types of peoples in the world today, Jews and Gentiles. All have the same free gift offered to them through Jesus Christ; Salvation through faith. The Roman Catholic Church teaches another gospel than salvation through faith, they teach salvation through the Roman Catholic Church; very unscriptural.

They teach salvation by faith. They teach joining the community of God. Before Christ, this community consisted of the chosen people, the Jews. After Christ, His community expanded and was offered to all men who would either join the visible Church, or acted in a way that they would have had they known about it. Thus, the command to baptize people was given to the apostles so that people could enter the Church. Circumcision was no longer necessary. I presume you are familiar with all of this?

If you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour, why do you hold yourself in the bondage of the Roman Catholic Church with their false teachings? I suspect that Jesus Christ is not enough for those who refuse to believe the Scriptures over the RCC.

What false teachings? That is your opinion, unproven by you. And by the way, you still haven't shown me where the Bible takes precedence over the Church. The Church put the Bible together in its present form. The Church wrote the Bible. And through the Church, Christ continues to be present. I am certainly not in bondage! I am thankful that God gave mankind this focal point of truth that we can turn to, unlike you who has to rely on fallible knowledge. No matter how much study you apply to Scriptures, you will NEVER be certain that you have read it correctly!

I have given you scriptures and articles that show that the word of God in the Scriptures is the whole revelation of God to mankind on this earth. Anything else whether papal pronouncements or Roman Catholic Church tradition, if it contradicts the Word of God it is false teaching.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach anything against the Scriptures, so this is really a pointless argument. Again, you believe this is so because your ability to interpret Scriptures is fallible.

Many Roman Catholics have never heard the Salvation offered to them through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and are on their way to an eternity of damnation because of it.

Says you. We all believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and holds out salvation to us. Where do you get off condeming ANYONE to hell, bud? This arrogance on who is going to heaven and who is going to hell will certainly catch up with you some day. Repent now, because in Purgatory, you will wish you had done so here.

Many other ex-Roman Catholics have been freed from the bondage of the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and are now serving the Lord Jesus Christ, and not a man-made institution.

You know, there are MANY former Protestant ministers and pastors who have "swam the Tiber". There are whole books on the subject. We aren't talking about some moron Catholic who didn't know their faith, like the "nun" you love so dearly. We are talking about Protestants who led communities and were well versed in the Bible. On the "Coming Home" Network on EWTN, there are weekly shows that are dedicated to their stories. If you want to learn more, go to http://www.chnetwork.org. The vast majority of Catholics who have left their faith didn't know it to begin with, as is amply proven by your snippets...

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31-32

And where is the truth found? In the Church 1 Tim 3:15

The word of God says that those that are born of God are saved, and those that are not born of God are not saved. Those who believe that infant baptism saves are under a delusion provided by the god of this world.

Where does the Bible say that those who are baptized as infants are under a delusion? Show me the verse that makes that claim. Otherwise, you are again incorrectly interpreting Scriptures. Paul clearly makes a parallel between baptism and circumcision (done on infants) and the early Church practiced it. Those who heard the Apostles preach must have heard that it was OK to baptize infants for them to practice it.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

What's your point? Jesus also said that unless you abide in Him, you will not have eternal life. HOW do you abide in Christ? You must eat His flesh and blood, that's the only way that Jesus says we come to abide in Him...

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

Wonderful. What IS Scriptures, then? Where does the Bible tell me what is INSPIRED? And where in the above verses do we see ANYTHING about it being the sole source of faith? You are delusional, since Eph 4:11-13 gives ANOTHER source of teaching, of perfecting the Christian - the bishops and pastors of the Church... Exactly in line with what the Catholic Church still teaches.

.. 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 1 Timothy 1:5-11

Yes, the gospel was committed to Paul, who then entrusts it to Timothy and Titus. The authority of Paul is given to the bishops of the Church to properly interpret Scriptures. Thanks.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:10-15

Again, Paul is talking about false apostles, the self-appointed men who think THEY have the truth. Unfortunately for you, that seems to fit YOU and YOUR community much better, since if one goes back to the beginning of your church, it is not tied to the Apostlic Church. It is an invention of men who decided to tickle the ears of simple people, for whatever reason. Thus, we ignore such false Protestant teachers, even if they appear as an angel of light. We know they are false teachers because they twist the Scriptures to secure warm bodies in their pews.

The Gospel message was given to the Church to pass down to the next generation. It was not given as a book to be figured out by successive generations...

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran, What does Protestant mean to you?



May God bless, golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran, What does Protestant mean to you?

Golfjack,

To me, a Protestant is a Christian, in most cases united mysteriously with the Catholic Church (through a valid Baptism) but who, for whatever reasons, has not joined the fullness of the Church found in the Catholic Church.

A Protestant, in many cases, shares similar beliefs that I as a Catholic does. Generally, they are to be respected because of their love of the Sacred Scriptures and beliefs that Jesus Christ died for our sins and enables us to be saved, both here and eventually in heaven. But as the name suggests, originally, a Protestant is one who protested against the Catholic Church. I cannot say that applies to all Protestants of today, as (from what I have learned from Protestants) many do not KNOW what the Catholic Church even teaches. Many are ignorant about the Catholic Church, often through no fault of their own...

Regards

 

[Solo]

Sorry, your interpretation is not the Word of God.

What is it with some of these Protestants here? They think that how they read Scriptures is THE Word of God? How quaint that God speaks to you individually. Have you ever gotten with another Protestant who makes the same claim you do - and find you disagree on this "God-given" interpretation of Scripture?

Don't equate your interpretation of Scriptures with Scriptures themselves. That is the same sin that the Pharisees were guilty of.

Regards

You haven't shown me that you can interpret anything except the Roman Catholic jargon. The scriptures that you use are the scriptures that the Roman Catholic Church teaches you to use when debating "fundamentalist" Christians. There is a unity of believers in the main points of which the Roman Catholics disagree with. That is the first sign that the Roman Catholic Church is a teacher of false doctrines.

You have been warned by God's Word, so now you have a choice; believe God or believe the pope. It's your choice. I believe God, the pope screws up too much.

 

[Solo]

The scripture refutes the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, not I. The Holy Spirit has inspired the writers of the Scriptures, and also interprets the Scriptures; any doctrines or traditions that are different than the scriptures are from the devil himself.

Again, the problem is you are equating your personal interpretation of Scriptures as the intent that God has for the Scriptures. Impossible - considering many people just like yourself make the exact same claim - and they all differ! Fortunately, God gave us a Church, a community where we could find the truth and didn't have to find it ourselves by reading a book. According to this idea, very few people before the printing press was invented were saved, since they didn't have the ability to buy and read the Scriptures for themselves. Even today, people in third world countries cannot read. So what happens to this "american" version of the Gospel? It is false.

I am not surprised that you do not understand the interpretation of the Spirit of God since you have not been born again. Jesus teaches explicitly that unless one is born of the water (flesh) and Spirit (spirit) one cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Roman Catholics teach that being born again is at the moment of baptism into the Roman Catholic faith. That is a lie straight from the devil himself.

Did John write this with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit just to the pope, or to all believers?

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:25-27

Does the Holy Spirit dwell within each believer? According to John he does. Does the Holy Spirit teach believers all things or must we rely on the pope? According to John we do not need that any man teach us, but the Holy Spirit.

What is the Holy Spirit's interpretation to you?

There are two types of peoples in the world today, Jews and Gentiles. All have the same free gift offered to them through Jesus Christ; Salvation through faith. The Roman Catholic Church teaches another gospel than salvation through faith, they teach salvation through the Roman Catholic Church; very unscriptural.

They teach salvation by faith. They teach joining the community of God. Before Christ, this community consisted of the chosen people, the Jews. After Christ, His community expanded and was offered to all men who would either join the visible Church, or acted in a way that they would have had they known about it. Thus, the command to baptize people was given to the apostles so that people could enter the Church. Circumcision was no longer necessary. I presume you are familiar with all of this?

I am seeing that you have decided that the only way to be saved is to join the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible does not teach this, but the Roman Catholic Church does. Many have left the Roman Catholic Church because of this false teaching.

The body of Christ is not a physical assembly of believers but a spiritual assembly of believers. The head of the body of Christ is Jesus Christ, not the pope. The gifts of the Spirit are given to the believers of the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, not by the Church. Within the body of Christ their are apostles, teachers, prophets, evangelists, and pastors for the perfecting of the believers (saints) for the work of the ministry edifying the body of Christ. I don't see pope, priest, cardinal, laity, mentioned.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

If you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour, why do you hold yourself in the bondage of the Roman Catholic Church with their false teachings? I suspect that Jesus Christ is not enough for those who refuse to believe the Scriptures over the RCC.

What false teachings? That is your opinion, unproven by you. And by the way, you still haven't shown me where the Bible takes precedence over the Church. The Church put the Bible together in its present form. The Church wrote the Bible. And through the Church, Christ continues to be present. I am certainly not in bondage! I am thankful that God gave mankind this focal point of truth that we can turn to, unlike you who has to rely on fallible knowledge. No matter how much study you apply to Scriptures, you will NEVER be certain that you have read it correctly!

You really have been duped. I asked you in the previous post to show where the church is mentioned as the Word of God is, and you have failed to do so. I have the Holy Spirit teaching me the Word of God, and you have a natural man teaching you, and as a natural man, you cannot discern the spiritual things of God. If you could, you would leave the false Church.

I have given you scriptures and articles that show that the word of God in the Scriptures is the whole revelation of God to mankind on this earth. Anything else whether papal pronouncements or Roman Catholic Church tradition, if it contradicts the Word of God it is false teaching.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach anything against the Scriptures, so this is really a pointless argument. Again, you believe this is so because your ability to interpret Scriptures is fallible.

Your opinions do not even come close to the truth, so I suggest that you repent, believe the word of God, and follow Jesus so that you can gain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide and teach you all truth.

Many Roman Catholics have never heard the Salvation offered to them through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and are on their way to an eternity of damnation because of it.

Says you. We all believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and holds out salvation to us. Where do you get off condeming ANYONE to hell, bud? This arrogance on who is going to heaven and who is going to hell will certainly catch up with you some day. Repent now, because in Purgatory, you will wish you had done so here.

The Word of God teaches that man who prefers darkness are already condemned to hell. I only proclaim to you the truth of the Word of God. Your answer shows that you do not know the salvation of Jesus Christ; all you know is that he is holding it out to you. I suggest that you grab ahold of it and ask him to save you before you die. If I ask you now where would you spend eternity if you were to die tonight, your answer would be?

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:17-21

There is no such place as purgatory. Once to die and then the judgement. I thought you told me that they teach truth at the Roman Catholic Church?

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:26-28

Many other ex-Roman Catholics have been freed from the bondage of the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and are now serving the Lord Jesus Christ, and not a man-made institution.

You know, there are MANY former Protestant ministers and pastors who have "swam the Tiber". There are whole books on the subject. We aren't talking about some moron Catholic who didn't know their faith, like the "nun" you love so dearly. We are talking about Protestants who led communities and were well versed in the Bible. On the "Coming Home" Network on EWTN, there are weekly shows that are dedicated to their stories. If you want to learn more, go to http://www.chnetwork.org. The vast majority of Catholics who have left their faith didn't know it to begin with, as is amply proven by your snippets...

Those who left a non-catholic faith whether ministers and pastors or not, were not true believers or they would have stayed in their faith.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19

You can call people morons but it does nothing for your position.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31-32

And where is the truth found? In the Church 1 Tim 3:15

Paul instructs Timothy

1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 2:1-16

Here is an except of John Gill's Exposition of the Bible on 1 Timothy 3:15:

• [*]that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the
  house of God;
  
  that is, the church of God, as it is afterwards explained; called a house, in allusion either to an edifice, it being a spiritual house built of lively stories, or true believers, upon the foundation Jesus Christ, and who also is the door into it; the pillars of it are the ministers of the Gospel....
  [/*:m:75294]
• which is the church of the living God;
  
  in opposition to, and distinction from the houses and temples of idols, which are inanimate and senseless creatures; whereas the true God is the living God, has life in himself, essentially, originally, and independently, and is the author and giver of life to others...
  [/*:m:75294]
• the pillar and ground of the truth;
  
  which holds forth the truth to be seen and read of all, as pillars that bear inscriptions; and which supports and maintains truth, as every true church of Christ does so long as it remains so; though truth is the pillar and ground of the church; for if once truth is gone, a church is no more so: rather therefore Timothy himself is here designed; and the sense is, that what was written to him was with this view, that he might the better know how to conduct himself in the church of God, as a pillar and ground of truth, to hold it forth and to secure it: ministers of the Gospel are called pillars, (Galatians 2:9) and that with greater propriety than the church itself, which is before called an house...[/*:m:75294]

The word of God says that those that are born of God are saved, and those that are not born of God are not saved. Those who believe that infant baptism saves are under a delusion provided by the god of this world.

Where does the Bible say that those who are baptized as infants are under a delusion? Show me the verse that makes that claim. Otherwise, you are again incorrectly interpreting Scriptures. Paul clearly makes a parallel between baptism and circumcision (done on infants) and the early Church practiced it. Those who heard the Apostles preach must have heard that it was OK to baptize infants for them to practice it.

Paul did not make any distinction concerning salvation and baptism. If he thought baptism saved a person, he would have baptized as many individuals as he preached to. He would have set up a water booth just to splash water on people as they passed by. Infant baptism does not save anyone. Only by acting on hearing the Word of God, repenting, and believing can one be saved. No where in scripture does it say infants were baptized. All that were baptized heard the word of God, and they believed. There is no proof that the households mentioned in Acts had infants within them, but the scriptures clearly indicate that individuals acted upon the Word of God to be saved.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

What's your point? Jesus also said that unless you abide in Him, you will not have eternal life. HOW do you abide in Christ? You must eat His flesh and blood, that's the only way that Jesus says we come to abide in Him...

Wrong. Abiding in Jesus Christ is allowing him to be in control of your life, not the flesh. Eating bread and drinking wine does nothing, but focusing on the works of Jesus Christ and placing His yoke upon you.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30

But first one must be born again by repenting of the darkness of their life, believing that Jesus paid the price of all sins one time for all, and then follow Him.

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

Wonderful. What IS Scriptures, then? Where does the Bible tell me what is INSPIRED? And where in the above verses do we see ANYTHING about it being the sole source of faith? You are delusional, since Eph 4:11-13 gives ANOTHER source of teaching, of perfecting the Christian - the bishops and pastors of the Church... Exactly in line with what the Catholic Church still teaches.

If you do not know what the Scriptures are, then you really do need to be born again. I didn't know the scriptures until after I was born again, and I was enrolled in an Old Testament Survey higher Textual Criticism class. I did not even know the books of the Bible.

.. 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 1 Timothy 1:5-11

Yes, the gospel was committed to Paul, who then entrusts it to Timothy and Titus. The authority of Paul is given to the bishops of the Church to properly interpret Scriptures. Thanks.

Pick and choose the scriptures buffet styly if you want, but know that you are lacking when you do. The whole counsil of God is important, but it is meaningless until you are born again. You will never understand the word until you are born again.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:10-15

Again, Paul is talking about false apostles, the self-appointed men who think THEY have the truth. Unfortunately for you, that seems to fit YOU and YOUR community much better, since if one goes back to the beginning of your church, it is not tied to the Apostlic Church. It is an invention of men who decided to tickle the ears of simple people, for whatever reason. Thus, we ignore such false Protestant teachers, even if they appear as an angel of light. We know they are false teachers because they twist the Scriptures to secure warm bodies in their pews.

The Gospel message was given to the Church to pass down to the next generation. It was not given as a book to be figured out by successive generations...

Regards

I will bet my life against your life that the Word of God is the truth, and the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are false teachings. Oh, that is what we already are betting by what we believe.
We will know one day. Hopefully you will become born again before that time, instead of depending on a manmade institution.

 

[stray bullet]

All you have to do is read the Roman Catholic Catechism to learn the way of salvation taught by the Roman Catholic Church. Just in case you haven't read it, here it is online.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

Here is another Roman Catholic website that has a picture of the Roman Catholic unrisen Jesus Christ.

http://www.christusrex.org/

What does that have to do with anything? A nativity scene is a picture of Jesus Christ 'unrisen'- because he was crucified. The movie, "The Passion" loved by many Christians is millions of pictures of just that.

 

[stray bullet]

I don't post at the Roman Catholic forum because I feel that it is rude and outrageous to go into their forum and post disruptively without invitation. I just read their posts to one another, and they are continually attacking the protestants, calling them heretics. They also do not show many fruits of the Spirit as they converse back and forth. On one forum an adult male individual told a young teenage girl to not listen to her mother, that he had had teenage bisexual encounters, and to go ahead and participate in her lesbian relationship.

I know protestants that do the same thing.

 

[stray bullet]

I posted the source. Did you not see it?

Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,†page 308. Paul Johnson is a Catholic.

Of course not, given that you didn't actually quote the source. I seriously doubt you've even looked that the book and just copied the reference from a book or website somewhere that said the same thing.

the fact it wasn't quoted shows me that someone is trying to make it say something it didn't.

 

[Atonement]

Oh what the heck, we Protestants are going to hell in a hand basket, only the Catholic faith is going to Heaven.. Or did you not know that?

Give me a break. Some threads are so foolish.

 

[francisdesales]

Oh what the heck, we Protestants are going to hell in a hand basket, only the Catholic faith is going to Heaven.. Or did you not know that?

Give me a break. Some threads are so foolish.

I am relatively new to this forum, but I have yet to see a Catholic say such a thing. On the other hand, "moderators" have agreed with posters who claim that unless Catholics leave their church, they are going to hell. In this very thread, you will find Solo say this...

Funny how the Catholic Catechism nowhere teaches any such thing, even holding out hope for Muslims and Jews, but we are constantly accused of teaching that all non-Catholics are heading to perdition...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You have been warned by God's Word, so now you have a choice; believe God or believe the pope. It's your choice. I believe God, the pope screws up too much.

I have been warned by God's Word???!!!

Again, you are equating your interpretation with God's Word. I refute your interpretation of the Scriptures. Either believe your fallible self or God's Church that has given mankind the Gospel through the Apostles. Your choice.

It is clear that Protestants do not agree on even critical matters of the faith. Does Baptism save or not? I know I can get two different answers if I ask two different Protestants. And they BOTH claim that the Spirit tells them what the Word of God says. Just like you. Thus, I choose not to believe your mistaken interpretations.

Protestants, just like Catholics, screw up too much. This is the reason why we shouldn't trust our own interpretations as if they are from God Himself...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I am not surprised that you do not understand the interpretation of the Spirit of God since you have not been born again. Jesus teaches explicitly that unless one is born of the water (flesh) and Spirit (spirit) one cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Roman Catholics teach that being born again is at the moment of baptism into the Roman Catholic faith. That is a lie straight from the devil himself.

Naturally, unless I agree with everything you say, then I wasn't "born again" by your standards, since God speaks to you directly. :roll:

Since I was baptized, I was born again. Subsequently during my adult life, I had a "reconversion" experience. So before you go and make such a statement, perhaps you should give another Christian the benefit of the doubt.

Does the Holy Spirit dwell within each believer?

The Spirit blows where He wills. He even has dwelt in every man to write the Natural Law on people's hearts (Romans 2). Does this mean that these Gentiles that Paul talks about know about Christ and His resurrection? :roll:

I am seeing that you have decided that the only way to be saved is to join the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible does not teach this, but the Roman Catholic Church does. Many have left the Roman Catholic Church because of this false teaching.

Please post for me where I said ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE such a statement... I have labored to say the opposite, so perhaps you should learn to read what I actually write, rather than what your hatred of what you think is Catholic tells you. It appears you have built up this strawman called Catholic Church, and nothing I say will change your mind. Well, Christ appeared before the Pharisees, and they had hardened their hearts, so why should I expect anything different from you?

The body of Christ is not a physical assembly of believers but a spiritual assembly of believers

Give me a verse where it says that... Show me where the Word of God says that the Body is NOT a visible assembly of people. Begin with Matthew 18 and ask yourself "WHO am I supposed to take my argument to" if the Church is invisible...

I asked you in the previous post to show where the church is mentioned as the Word of God is, and you have failed to do so. I have the Holy Spirit teaching me the Word of God, and you have a natural man teaching you

No, you told me that the Bible was above the Church, which I denied. History itself shows that the Church, a visible body of people, inspired by God, brought forth the Scriptures and verified it. The Bible didn't bring forth the Church. :roll:

You have been duped. Also, perhaps you should consider that the way of preaching the Gospel is through men. Isn't that clearly noted in Scriptures? How can people know the Gospel without men preaching it to them? Or have you not read Romans 10?

I only proclaim to you the truth of the Word of God.

I disagree with your interpretations of what the truth is. The Church is the pillar of truth, not Solo. :roll:

No matter how many times you repeat this, you won't convince me otherwise.

There is no such place as purgatory. Once to die and then the judgement. I thought you told me that they teach truth at the Roman Catholic Church?

Purgatory is for the saved. It is not a second chance for salvation. Its existence is based on Christ's sacrifice and God's mercy, since nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Those who left a non-catholic faith whether ministers and pastors or not, were not true believers or they would have stayed in their faith.

Baloney. How do you know YOU are a true believer? With such an answer, you cannot know - since you might convert to some other religion in the future. Does that mean your whole life up until then was not "true"? This is a lame Protestant argument. Those who leave believe they have found the truth fully expressed in the Catholic Church. They realize their past lives were still missing something. They were believers before - so such logic is ridiculous.

Paul did not make any distinction concerning salvation and baptism. If he thought baptism saved a person, he would have baptized as many individuals as he preached to. He would have set up a water booth just to splash water on people as they passed by.

Well, what good would that have done if the parents didn't believe??? Ask yourself, "why did the Jews circumcise infants"... Need I remind you that a person is not necessarily going to heaven just because they have been "saved"? Scriptures clearly note that some people will fall away and lose their salvation once attained.

Wrong. Abiding in Jesus Christ is allowing him to be in control of your life, not the flesh.

Wrong back at you. Show me the verses that Christ says this. Do a search and tell me WHEN does a person abide in Christ? ONLY when they eat His flesh does Christ say this... In John 15, He tells us we must abide in Him, but doesn't tell us HOW. Only in John 6 does He tell us HOW. By eating His flesh and drinking His blood during the Eucharist, which ALL Christians partaked in before the Protestant deformation.

If you do not know what the Scriptures are, then you really do need to be born again. I didn't know the scriptures until after I was born again, and I was enrolled in an Old Testament Survey higher Textual Criticism class. I did not even know the books of the Bible

Talking about arguing in a circle... You know what the Bible books are because the Church has told us!

I will bet my life against your life that the Word of God is the truth, and the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are false teachings. Oh, that is what we already are betting by what we believe.

What a childish thing to say... You'll bet your life... :roll:

Hopefully you will become born again before that time, instead of depending on a manmade institution.

The Body of Christ is divine AND man. Didn't you know that? Didn't you know that Christ became man and retained His divinity? Are you now saying that Christ was only a man, since He built the Church?

So much for your "gospel"... :roll:

 

[francisdesales]

Please, correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.

Protestants put emphasis on the personal relationship they as individuals have with the holy spirit and put very little emphasis on the community of believers as a whole.

Catholics put emphasis on how the holy spirit fellowships with the community of believers as a whole while assuming the personal relationship with Christ will flourish within the community.

That is a pretty fair analysis of the paradigm that we exist within... While neither group disdains the other approach, in general, you are correct. I imagine this comes, at least in part, to the approach to how the Spirit moves within each of us individually and as a group. I think Catholics believe that the Spirit comes to us individually in our daily lives, but primarily through the community worship and proclamation of Scriptures as a group - while Protestants generally consider the opposite point of view.

Comments?

Regards

 

[Atonement]

I am relatively new to this forum, but I have yet to see a Catholic say such a thing. On the other hand, "moderators" have agreed with posters who claim that unless Catholics leave their church, they are going to hell. In this very thread, you will find Solo say this...

Funny how the Catholic Catechism nowhere teaches any such thing, even holding out hope for Muslims and Jews, but we are constantly accused of teaching that all non-Catholics are heading to perdition...

Regards

francisdesales,
Do yourself a favor since your new here. Do a search on my name and tell me how many debates I'm in with other denominations? I bet you'll find less then 5. I don't debate Catholics, JW, Mormons, the yoho's and the who whos.. It's a waste of time if you were to ask me...

 

[stovebolts]

That is a pretty fair analysis of the paradigm that we exist within... While neither group disdains the other approach, in general, you are correct. I imagine this comes, at least in part, to the approach to how the Spirit moves within each of us individually and as a group. I think Catholics believe that the Spirit comes to us individually in our daily lives, but primarily through the community worship and proclamation of Scriptures as a group - while Protestants generally consider the opposite point of view.

Comments?

Regards

I dont' really have any comments. It's just somthing that I picked up on recently while browsing the posts by both parties when it clicked to me.
I think it's a great Catholic trait. Within the church of Christ where I attend, were very oriented toward Church family as a community of believers and as such, we believe in the power of baptism and the importance of partaking of the Lords Supper each first day of the week in unity. Granted, it's a bit different than what the Catholics believe, but it seem to me that we really do meet in agreement on a lot of areas. (I'm sure there are some CofC people out there just screaming at me about now...)

Anyway, carry on.

Thanks

 

[D46]

Funny how the Catholic Catechism nowhere teaches any such thing, even holding out hope for Muslims and Jews, but we are constantly accused of teaching that all non-Catholics are heading to perdition...

That's odd...I could have sworn I saw where the Catholic Church avows that they are the only hope of salvation and that anyone without the Church is bound for hell.

If, indeed, they are "holding out hope for Muslims and Jews", why is the RCC not out knocking on doors like the Baptists and JW's do, attempting to evengelize? Afraid of being turned away? I've never seen a priest walking up and down the road with a bible under his arm-likely as not, I never will.