Can we Christians agree on these statements?Ver#2

[Drew]

But why would you call it an option or refer to it as a possibility? To suggest it is an option is to disregard the instruction. To refer to it is a possibility is to entertain the idea of letting your body rule over you.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that it is an option in the sense that it is "OK" to not follow the instruction. If we want to live, we have to follow the instruction. But the possibility exists for us to refuse to obey the instruction - that is all that I am saying.

I have never said or implied that we can "afford" to not follow this instruction. But it is indeed possible for us to not follow this instruction.

 

[MarkT]

But why would you call it an option or refer to it as a possibility? To suggest it is an option is to disregard the instruction. To refer to it is a possibility is to entertain the idea of letting your body rule over you.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that it is an option in the sense that it is "OK" to not follow the instruction. If we want to live, we have to follow the instruction. But the possibility exists for us to refuse to obey the instruction - that is all that I am saying.

I have never said or implied that we can "afford" to not follow this instruction. But it is indeed possible for us to not follow this instruction.

I'm only going by your words Drew. There's a subtle difference between saying, 'it is possible to not sin', and the negative of the statement. Everybody sins. As Paul said, 'We are all under the power of sin', and like John said, 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' 1 John 1:8 Indeed, if we were without sin, we would have no further need for forgiveness. We wouldn't need the Spirit. Say, 'it is possible not to sin'. Say, 'it is possible to resist the devil'. Take the positive message. The suggestion, that, 'it is possible to sin', to let sin reign, that suggestion comes from the devil. It's like the Serpent said to Eve: It is possible to eat the fruit of the tree and not die and be like God.

 

[Drew]

I believe that Paul writes that the power of sin has been "broken", not entirely done away with.

Where does he say that? On the contrary, 'we have been set free from sin, and have become slaves of God'. Romans 6:22 In Christ there is no sin, and that's where we are. Don't you know that you have a spiritual body? That which was planted by God?

I do not think this position of your is Scriptural. Believers do not have a spiritual body - they will get one at the future resurrection. I wonder whether you buy into what I think is an incorrect view - that the "spiritual" body is not a real body but is some kind of "immaterial" thing. This is not what Paul teaches. Instead, Paul teaches (1 Cor 15)that believers will be given "spiritual" bodies at the time of the resurrection.

And we need to take everything that Paul writes into account. So in addition to making sense of Romans 6:22:

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

....we must also take this into account, also from Romans 6:

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God,...

This latter text clearly shows that the believer can still, if he choose, obey the "sinful" man inside that has not entirely been put to death.

And I believe that you go too far when you imply that 6:22 means that the "sin-tendency" within us has been entirely extinguished (at least, this is what I think that you are saying). All one can conclude from 6:22 is that we no longer are slavishly forced to sin, as we were before.

So I think the correct model for the state of the believer living in 2008 is basically this: we are in a fuzzy "in-between" state - the power of sin has been broken at Calvary, be we still wait for the final redemption of our bodies, so we indeed can still obey the call of our weakened but not totally defeated sinful nature. Our final redemption from the power of sin lies in the future.

 

[Drew]

Say, 'it is possible not to sin'. Say, 'it is possible to resist the devil'. Take the positive message.

At the risk of seeming prideful, I do not need to be "exorted" to resist the devil. You read way too much into what I am saying - I am not, repeat not, fatalistically advocating "giving in to the sin nature". And in that sense, I do not need to be "corrected" of that error. I am merely making the "technical" point, with which you seem to agree, that Christians are not entirely free from sin.

I am saying that because man can sin, that it OK to sin. You appear to think that this what I am saying, As Paul would say "may it never be!"

 

[MarkT]

But why would you call it an option or refer to it as a possibility? To suggest it is an option is to disregard the instruction. To refer to it is a possibility is to entertain the idea of letting your body rule over you.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that it is an option in the sense that it is "OK" to not follow the instruction. If we want to live, we have to follow the instruction. But the possibility exists for us to refuse to obey the instruction - that is all that I am saying.

I have never said or implied that we can "afford" to not follow this instruction. But it is indeed possible for us to not follow this instruction.

I think you're trying to keep both darkness and light. Take the light. Reject the dark. It's impossible to please God by holding the negative message; that is darkness.

Jesus said, 'If the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness', and 'No one can serve two masters'. Mt. 6:23,24

 

[Drew]

I think you're trying to keep both darkness and light. Take the light. Reject the dark. It's impossible to please God by holding the negative message; that is darkness.

Have a good one my brother, we are obviously "talking past each other"......

 

[MarkT]

There comes a point where one has to accept linguistic conventions. I am willing to bet the farm that if you presented the following statement to 1000 North American English speaking persons, who did not have any pre-conceptions about Christian doctrine, they would all clearly discern choice:

I'm thinking they would too judging by what I have seen.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness

The phrase "do not let" is an implicit acknowledgement of choice. One would not use this phrase if there were no choice - one would not say to the apple "Do not let yourself fall from the tree".

We are made in the image of God. Who would offer instruction to an apple? We're not an apple that has no ears to hear and no eyes to see. I agree you wouldn't say it to an apple. On the other hand, there is no sin in Christ. There is no sin to choose. In the light of Christ, we try to do what pleases God. But while we are still in this body of sin, we have to contend with the desires of the flesh. Paul said, 'I can will what is right but I can not do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me', and 'Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death.' Romans 7:18 and 24

Did Jesus have a choice? And we are in him. How then can we have a choice? What choice does God give us? Does the Spirit lead us in both directions? Does the Spirit of God allow us to choose evil? No. So then it is the carnal mind that sees the choice. The mind that is set on the Spirit only wants one thing; to please God.

Same thing with the phrase "Do not offer" - it contains an implicit sense of choice. We would not say to the apple: "do not offer yourelf to the force of gravity". Why not? Because the apple has no choice.

Does the prisoner have a choice? Those of us who have obtained a level of faith equal to the Apostles are prisoners for Christ. Paul says it of himself, Eph 3:1, 4:1, etc. Paul calls us 'slaves of God' Romans 6:22

 

[SpiritualSon]

I wanted to ask us these questions.

Can we all as Christians agree on these statements.

1)We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are thrree Divine attributes going forth one God, Creation, Redemption, and Regeneration, and that these are attributes one God. One God is the Creator from eternity, Redeemer under the name Jesus Christ and the Regenerator of men's soul forever.

2)We believe in Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.
This I believe


3)We believe Jesus died so we could have eternal life.
I believe the passion of the cross was to glorified His Human and unit it with the Divine in Himself call the Father. The Lord became completely Divine

4)We believe the Scriptures are the word of God.
I believe this.

5)We believe we are saved by the grace of God.
I believe I am saved by a life of charity and faith in the Lord. Charity is to do what the Word teaches, and faith is to believe what the Word teaches.Thou shall not kill. Real charity is not to will and do evil against the neighbor or to people you don't like.

I know this is basic stuff and I'm sure in the details we might disagree but I just wanted to see on this basic information if we can come to a consensuses on these essentials without going into details.........I know that we all hold that the details are important(and they are to me ,big time) but I just wanted to see this post be a uniting in Christ

Harry

 

[biblecatholic]

I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are thrree Divine attributes going forth one God, Creation, Redemption, and Regeneration, and that these are attributes one God. One God is the Creator from eternity, Redeemer under the name Jesus Christ and the Regenerator of men's soul forever.

2)We believe in Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.
This I believe


3)We believe Jesus died so we could have eternal life.
I believe the passion of the cross was to glorified His Human and unit it with the Divine in Himself call the Father. The Lord became completely Divine

4)We believe the Scriptures are the word of God.
I believe this.

5)We believe we are saved by the grace of God.
I believe I am saved by a life of charity and faith in the Lord. Charity is to do what the Word teaches, and faith is to believe what the Word teaches.Thou shall not kill. Real charity is not to will and do evil against the neighbor or to people you don't like.

I know this is basic stuff and I'm sure in the details we might disagree but I just wanted to see on this basic information if we can come to a consensuses on these essentials without going into details.........I know that we all hold that the details are important(and they are to me ,big time) but I just wanted to see this post be a uniting in Christ

Harry[/quote]

looks like a yes

 

[Catholic Crusader]

delete

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I wanted to ask us these questions. Can we all as Christians agree on these statements.
1)We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2)We believe in Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.
3)We believe Jesus died so we could have eternal life.
4)We believe the Scriptures are the word of God.
5)We believe we are saved by the grace of God

A faithful Catholic can agree to all five of those
1 = Trinity
2 = The Virgin Birth
3 = (pretty obvious)
4 = This one gets a little touchy, but, yes, the Scriptures are the word of God in writing
5 = Absolutely: "Sola Gratia"

http://www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

 

[mutzrein]

I wanted to ask us these questions. Can we all as Christians agree on these statements.
1)We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2)We believe in Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.
3)We believe Jesus died so we could have eternal life.
4)We believe the Scriptures are the word of God.
5)We believe we are saved by the grace of God

A faithful Catholic can agree to all five of those
1 = Trinity
2 = The Virgin Birth
3 = (pretty obvious)
4 = This one gets a little touchy, but, yes, the Scriptures are the word of God in writing
5 = Absolutely: "Sola Gratia"

http://www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

I suppose it begs the question. What's the difference between a faithful Catholic and an unfaithful Catholic? Faithful to what?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What's the difference between a faithful Catholic and an unfaithful Catholic? Faithful to what?

Your question is a bit off topic. What I meant was, a Catholic can agree to those five points and be perfectly within the teachings of the Church. I'll rephrase it that way.

 

[biblecatholic]

I suppose it begs the question. What's the difference between a faithful Catholic and an unfaithful Catholic? Faithful to what?

Faithful to Christ

 

[forgivenWretch]

Can we all as Christians agree on these statements.


1)We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2)We believe in Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.
3)We believe Jesus died so we could have eternal life.
4)We believe the Scriptures are the word of God.
5)We believe we are saved by the grace of God

YES

1. YES
2. YES
3. YES
4. YES
5. YES

 

[forgivenWretch]

I know this is basic stuff and I'm sure in the details we might disagree but I just wanted to see on this basic information if we can come to a consensuses on these essentials without going into details.........I know that we all hold that the details are important(and they are to me ,big time) but I just wanted to see this post be a uniting in Christ

Wouldn't it also quite amazing, if we could, to also agree, to answer another's question, the way they ask for it to be answered! Why must the most simple request be disrespected?

 

[Veritas]

I'm a bit late here... but I can say:

1. yes
2. yes
3. yes
4. yes
5. yes!