Can We Obey God and also Vote for a Woman?

[Eddie42]

"My people—children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your leaders mislead you, and confuse the course of your paths." (Isa 3:12, NRSV, 1989c)

"Then God said to the woman, 'I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain.
You will greatly desire [the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.'" (Gen 3:16, Expanded Bible 2011c, Thomas Nelson Inc.)

Matthew Poole 17th Century, comment on Gen. 3:16 -
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband; thy desires shall be referred or submitted to thy husband’s will and pleasure to grant or deny them, as he sees fit. Which sense is confirmed from Gen 4:7, where the same phrase is used in the same sense. And this punishment was both very proper for her that committed so great an error, as the eating of the forbidden fruit was, in compliance with her own desire, without asking her husband’s advice or consent, as in all reason she should have done in so weighty and doubtful a matter; and very grievous to her, because women’s affections use to be vehement, and it is irksome to them to have them restrained or denied. Seeing, for want of thy husband’s rule and conduct, thou wast seduced by the serpent, and didst abuse that power I gave thee together with thy husband to draw him to sin, thou shalt now be brought down to a lower degree, for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor, to whom I have now given a greater power and authority over thee than he had before, (which through thy pride and corruption will be far more uneasy unto thee than his former empire was), and who will usurp a further power than I have given him, and will, by my permission, for thy punishment, rule thee many times with rigour, tyranny, and cruelty, which thou wilt groan under, but shalt not be able to deliver thyself from it. See 1Co 14:34; 1Ti 2:11-12; 1Pe 3:6."

Robert L. Dabney, 19th Century Presbyterian Theologian on women voting -
"What those influences will be may be learned by every one who reverences the Christian Scriptures, from this fact, that the theory of “Women’s Rights” is sheer infidelity. It directly impugns the authority and the justice of these Scriptures. They speak in no uncertain tones. “The husband is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord” (v. 22). “The man is not for the woman, but the woman for the man” (1 Cor. 2:9). “Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection: but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence: for Adam was first formed, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:11–14). They are to be “discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands,” etc. (Titus 2:5)."

Does the Bible give a woman the right to cancel out her husband, father or brother's vote with her secret vote. Had the body of Christ been so wrong on this matter for 1900 years, until mankind became so wise? Is the USA more godly today than it was 100 years ago?

 

[eddif]

Interesting. Seems I have heard this before.

Women in a marriage and bearing children may (may sometimes) fit your description.

What about unmarried young females with their passions under control? Especially those involved in serving the Lord.

What about 70 year females (some widows) who are not busy bodies (gossips) but are involved in serving the Lord.

And what about the one in a million - there can always be an exception.

eddif

 

[JLB]

What about Deborah?

 

[jaybo]

"My people—children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your leaders mislead you, and confuse the course of your paths." (Isa 3:12, NRSV, 1989c)

"Then God said to the woman, 'I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain.
You will greatly desire [the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.'" (Gen 3:16, Expanded Bible 2011c, Thomas Nelson Inc.)

Matthew Poole 17th Century, comment on Gen. 3:16 -
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband; thy desires shall be referred or submitted to thy husband’s will and pleasure to grant or deny them, as he sees fit. Which sense is confirmed from Gen 4:7, where the same phrase is used in the same sense. And this punishment was both very proper for her that committed so great an error, as the eating of the forbidden fruit was, in compliance with her own desire, without asking her husband’s advice or consent, as in all reason she should have done in so weighty and doubtful a matter; and very grievous to her, because women’s affections use to be vehement, and it is irksome to them to have them restrained or denied. Seeing, for want of thy husband’s rule and conduct, thou wast seduced by the serpent, and didst abuse that power I gave thee together with thy husband to draw him to sin, thou shalt now be brought down to a lower degree, for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor, to whom I have now given a greater power and authority over thee than he had before, (which through thy pride and corruption will be far more uneasy unto thee than his former empire was), and who will usurp a further power than I have given him, and will, by my permission, for thy punishment, rule thee many times with rigour, tyranny, and cruelty, which thou wilt groan under, but shalt not be able to deliver thyself from it. See 1Co 14:34; 1Ti 2:11-12; 1Pe 3:6."

Robert L. Dabney, 19th Century Presbyterian Theologian on women voting -
"What those influences will be may be learned by every one who reverences the Christian Scriptures, from this fact, that the theory of “Women’s Rights” is sheer infidelity. It directly impugns the authority and the justice of these Scriptures. They speak in no uncertain tones. “The husband is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord” (v. 22). “The man is not for the woman, but the woman for the man” (1 Cor. 2:9). “Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection: but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence: for Adam was first formed, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:11–14). They are to be “discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands,” etc. (Titus 2:5)."

Does the Bible give a woman the right to cancel out her husband, father or brother's vote with her secret vote. Had the body of Christ been so wrong on this matter for 1900 years, until mankind became so wise? Is the USA more godly today than it was 100 years ago?

Women have the right to vote for whomever they choose. This is 21st Century US; our political and economic systems are vastly different from the stratified societies where women's roles were vastly different than what they are today.

 

[hawkman]

Matthew Poole 17th Century

That explains a lot .

And this punishment was both very proper for her that committed so great an error, as the eating of the forbidden fruit was, in compliance with her own desire, without asking her husband’s advice or consent, as in all reason she should have done in so weighty and doubtful a matter; and very grievous to her, because women’s affections use to be vehement, and it is irksome to them to have them restrained or denied. Seeing, for want of thy husband’s rule and conduct, thou wast seduced by the serpent, and didst abuse that power I gave thee together with thy husband to draw him to sin, thou shalt now be brought down to a lower degree, for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor, to whom I have now given a greater power and authority over thee than he had before, (which through thy pride and corruption will be far more uneasy unto thee than his former empire was), and who will usurp a further power than I have given him, and will, by my permission, for thy punishment, rule thee many times with rigour, tyranny, and cruelty, which thou wilt groan under, but shalt not be able to deliver thyself from it.

I am surprised that God did not banish the fairer sex from the planet !

Does the Bible give a woman the right to cancel out her husband, father or brother's vote with her secret vote.

Did you know I could not find the word " vote " in my KJV ? Is it in your bible ?

What are you up to wondering ?

 

[GodsGrace]

That explains a lot .

I am surprised that God did not banish the fairer sex from the planet !

Did you know I could not find the word " vote " in my KJV ? Is it in your bible ?

What are you up to wondering ?

Hi Hawkman
Just trying to adjust to my new life after my life's partner passed on and left me behind.

I check in every now and then but am finding it difficult to post...

But I'm happy you tagged me on this one!
It's a blast. I sure hope some persons are not married.

See you around.

 

[Free]

Just trying to adjust to my new life after my life's partner passed on and left me behind.

Truly sorry to hear.

 

[jasonc]

I am complimentarian myself but ok.that's a slippery slope .

 

[GodsGrace]

Truly sorry to hear.

Thanks Free.
Nice to see you around.

 

[Eddie42]

"My people—children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your leaders mislead you, and confuse the course of your paths." (Isa 3:12, NRSV, 1989c)

"Then God said to the woman, 'I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain.
You will greatly desire [the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.'" (Gen 3:16, Expanded Bible 2011c, Thomas Nelson Inc.)

Matthew Poole 17th Century, comment on Gen. 3:16 -
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband; thy desires shall be referred or submitted to thy husband’s will and pleasure to grant or deny them, as he sees fit. Which sense is confirmed from Gen 4:7, where the same phrase is used in the same sense. And this punishment was both very proper for her that committed so great an error, as the eating of the forbidden fruit was, in compliance with her own desire, without asking her husband’s advice or consent, as in all reason she should have done in so weighty and doubtful a matter; and very grievous to her, because women’s affections use to be vehement, and it is irksome to them to have them restrained or denied. Seeing, for want of thy husband’s rule and conduct, thou wast seduced by the serpent, and didst abuse that power I gave thee together with thy husband to draw him to sin, thou shalt now be brought down to a lower degree, for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor, to whom I have now given a greater power and authority over thee than he had before, (which through thy pride and corruption will be far more uneasy unto thee than his former empire was), and who will usurp a further power than I have given him, and will, by my permission, for thy punishment, rule thee many times with rigour, tyranny, and cruelty, which thou wilt groan under, but shalt not be able to deliver thyself from it. See 1Co 14:34; 1Ti 2:11-12; 1Pe 3:6."

Robert L. Dabney, 19th Century Presbyterian Theologian on women voting -
"What those influences will be may be learned by every one who reverences the Christian Scriptures, from this fact, that the theory of “Women’s Rights” is sheer infidelity. It directly impugns the authority and the justice of these Scriptures. They speak in no uncertain tones. “The husband is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord” (v. 22). “The man is not for the woman, but the woman for the man” (1 Cor. 2:9). “Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection: but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence: for Adam was first formed, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:11–14). They are to be “discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands,” etc. (Titus 2:5)."

Does the Bible give a woman the right to cancel out her husband, father or brother's vote with her secret vote. Had the body of Christ been so wrong on this matter for 1900 years, until mankind became so wise? Is the USA more godly today than it was 100 years ago?

I consider all of life is to be guided according to the word of God, not just on Sundays or when the preacher visits. I find scripture to guide me in many areas and I'll share a couple verses that have been important to me when it comes to voting for leaders.

"Now if you are unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh 24:15, NRSV)
* Once culture determines God's truth, how do you object to gay marriage, a male Presidential candidate who refers to his spouse as a "husband" and now he takes paternity leave. But if he has a husband, shouldn't that be maternity leave?

I have to decide if I'm going to observe and seek to obey the commands of the LORD, or am I going to ignore those and follow the godless culture of the world? Jesus Christ is the LORD incarnate and in the New Covenant, I strive to observe what he commands, Matt. 28:20; and Moses prophesied that we should obey Him in our day, Deut. 18:15-19. In understanding what scripture tells us to observe, we compare scripture with scripture, as the old confessions detail:

Westminster Confession of Faith & the 1689 Baptist Confession
"The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly. (2 Pet. 1:20–21, Acts 15:15–16)"
* When Jesus was tested by the devil, Jesus said "it is written" 3 times. He did not appeal to his own authority as the eternal Son of God. Isaiah 8:20 directs us to the scriptures to understand in contrast to the culture of that day.

The second verse that is key for me is the following:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29, NRSV)

I do not know why God ordained that Deborah be prophetess and judge, that is His secret. I am to follow or observe the law given to me in the New Covenant, the commands of Christ. Israel in the OT is given as an example for us, so we can still learn from their example. In the Bible it is a choice, Israel was told to "choose", and in the NT the same seems to be true, "select" or "appoint", so in an election in Florida, USA, I vote to choose and select a leader. I know of NO passage in scripture commanding God's people to choose or select a woman as leader or elder. Invariably it is men. What God ordains in regard to women in various roles, that is his secret affair. I am to follow the commands given to me and I am not to choose women as the rulers and leaders according to scripture.

Moses speaking to all Israel: "Choose wise, understanding, and experienced men, according to your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.’ And you answered me, ‘The thing that you have spoken is good for us to do.’ So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and set them as heads over you, commanders of thousands, commanders of hundreds, commanders of fifties, commanders of tens, and officers, throughout your tribes." (Deut 1:13-15, RSV)

"Therefore, friends[Gk brothers], select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task," (Acts 6:3, NRSV)

To Titus, "My intention in leaving you behind in Crete was that you should deal with any outstanding matters, and in particular should appoint elders in each town in accordance with the principles I have laid down: Are they men of unimpeachable character? Is each the husband of one wife? Are their children believers, not open to any charge of dissipation or indiscipline? (Titus 1:5-6, REB)

"The LORD said to Moses, 'Assemble seventy respected men who are recognized as leaders of the people, bring them to me at the Tent of my presence, and tell them to stand there beside you.'" (Num 11:16, GNB92)

"In those days Peter stood up among the believers[Gk brothers] (together the crowd numbered about one hundred twenty persons) and said, “Friends[Gk men, brothers], the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit through David foretold concerning Judas, who became a guide for those who arrested Jesus— ... So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us to his resurrection.” So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed and said, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which one of these two you have chosen (Acts 1:15,16,21-24, NRSV) *I usually prefer the footnotes in the NRSV, and that I placed in brackets.

The truth of God will change culture, but it is foolhardy to let culture change and modify the clear commands of scripture which the church recognized for 1900 years. In this age of feminism I'm grateful that Yahweh ordained single life for me; and no doubt there are many women just as grateful.

 

[D-D-W]

What about Deborah?

What about Junia?

 

[D-D-W]

As to the question asked as the title of this thread: "Can We Obey God and also Vote for a Woman?" it presupposes God is opposed to female secular leadership; that voting for a woman is somehow disobeying God.

I see nothing in scripture to indicate that.

 

[eddif]

Galatians 4:3 kjv
3. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Did he not fulfill the law written.
In Christ there is neither male or female…..

Peter had a rough time accepting the Gentiles.
But
I believe Peter quoted Joel.saying your sons and daughters shall prophesy.

The Gentile Bible commentaries have about as many side notes as the Jews have.

I think change came at Pentecost and change will come at the resurrection.

We have men who should never be in office.

This has been debated for a long time.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

I submit logically if we were to follow that then women should be stripped searched by male cops in prison upon reception from sentencing ,or arrest in jail .

women can't teach Sunday school at all. the view of the adulthood then was 12 or 13 . a boy is fully grown and should be allowed to marry .
do you really want to open that can ?

 

[jasonc]

I add then a true Christian should not teach his daughter the skills that men do.women won't sin ,marry foolish men or lack of skilled men.

to be able to paint ,build ,repair etc . just pay a man do to that . my wife knows some of that . her dad taught her .she helped him ,some girls are tomboys

 

[Eddie42]

Galatians 4:3 kjv
3. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Did he not fulfill the law written.
In Christ there is neither male or female…..

Peter had a rough time accepting the Gentiles.
But
I believe Peter quoted Joel.saying your sons and daughters shall prophesy.

The Gentile Bible commentaries have about as many side notes as the Jews have.

I think change came at Pentecost and change will come at the resurrection.

We have men who should never be in office.

This has been debated for a long time.

eddif

Eddif, I don't think women in the pulpit, voting or holding public office was debated before humanism crept into the churches in the latter 19th century. As to Gal. 3:28, that has nothing to do with a woman holding office or leading a church as a Pastor. Paul is speaking of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29, KJV)


In Peter's explanation, he speaks of what God did, and God did things in the apostolic age that did not continue, such as the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit. Again, Deut. 29:29 makes clear God has his secrets and ordains and determines things in his wisdom; but that does not become a command for us to follow.

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" (Acts 2:17, KJV)

We are to obey and observe commands that are given to us as stated in Deut. 29:29 and Matt. 28:20.

 

[Eddie42]

I submit logically if we were to follow that then women should be stripped searched by male cops in prison upon reception from sentencing ,or arrest in jail .

women can't teach Sunday school at all. the view of the adulthood then was 12 or 13 . a boy is fully grown and should be allowed to marry .
do you really want to open that can ?

Sunday School? I do not recall a command in the New Testament to set up a Sunday School. "Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

I don't recall seeing a scripture giving an age when a boy becomes a man, or when a girl becomes a woman.

 

[jasonc]

Sunday School? I do not recall a command in the New Testament to set up a Sunday School. "Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

I don't recall seeing a scripture giving an age when a boy becomes a man, or when a girl becomes a woman.

it's at 12 ,culturally ,Jews used the bar mitzvah ,

you assume that the cultures then in the bible didn't define adults .
you can and did marry under 18.

you also ignore that rights of free speech aren't in the bible .

women can't vote ,testify or even own property save the death of their male caretaker


not all women marry

 

[jasonc]

I also state,I must disagree with how we focus on making a living but not having a family .

I'm not against those that are married and only the husband works ,but should the husband die or became disabled and or divorce .the wife will have to learn his skill set .

its how my wife learned repairing etc because of her ex husbands .

they were useless .I'm all for the idea of men providing ,but there is a balence here.to assume women didn't do physically work on a farm ,my wife grew up picking fruit ,slaughtering chickens ,cows and geese . feeding horses . her grandmother ran a plow in old photos .that was in the 40s,old homes then had tiny farms and you lived of them,ice box were knew and that was for meat ,grocers as we knew it came to be bigger in the 50s in rural areas . before it was feed stores and local small grocers photo dates to the 1920s

 

[jaybo]

Eddif, I don't think women in the pulpit, voting or holding public office was debated before humanism crept into the churches in the latter 19th century. As to Gal. 3:28, that has nothing to do with a woman holding office or leading a church as a Pastor. Paul is speaking of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29, KJV)


In Peter's explanation, he speaks of what God did, and God did things in the apostolic age that did not continue, such as the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit. Again, Deut. 29:29 makes clear God has his secrets and ordains and determines things in his wisdom; but that does not become a command for us to follow.

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" (Acts 2:17, KJV)

We are to obey and observe commands that are given to us as stated in Deut. 29:29 and Matt. 28:20.

If you're under the law -- a Jew -- then go ahead and obey OT laws. They don't apply to Christians, who are under grace, not law.

You are correct in saying that Gal. 3:28, that has nothing to do with a woman holding office or leading a church as a Pastor, one way or another. It clearly says that as far as the Body of Christ is concerned, gender is irrelevant. Therefore, concerning the OP, we can obey God and also vote for a woman.