Can We Obey God and also Vote for a Woman?

[eddif]

What about Anna?

 

[jaybo]

What about Anna?

Anna who? What does she have to do with the OP subject?

 

[hawkman]

for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor,

What is the male suppose to do with this "higher and harder hand " ?

 

[OzSpen]

"My people—children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your leaders mislead you, and confuse the course of your paths." (Isa 3:12, NRSV, 1989c)

"Then God said to the woman, 'I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain.
You will greatly desire [the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.'" (Gen 3:16, Expanded Bible 2011c, Thomas Nelson Inc.)

Matthew Poole 17th Century, comment on Gen. 3:16 -
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband; thy desires shall be referred or submitted to thy husband’s will and pleasure to grant or deny them, as he sees fit. Which sense is confirmed from Gen 4:7, where the same phrase is used in the same sense. And this punishment was both very proper for her that committed so great an error, as the eating of the forbidden fruit was, in compliance with her own desire, without asking her husband’s advice or consent, as in all reason she should have done in so weighty and doubtful a matter; and very grievous to her, because women’s affections use to be vehement, and it is irksome to them to have them restrained or denied. Seeing, for want of thy husband’s rule and conduct, thou wast seduced by the serpent, and didst abuse that power I gave thee together with thy husband to draw him to sin, thou shalt now be brought down to a lower degree, for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor, to whom I have now given a greater power and authority over thee than he had before, (which through thy pride and corruption will be far more uneasy unto thee than his former empire was), and who will usurp a further power than I have given him, and will, by my permission, for thy punishment, rule thee many times with rigour, tyranny, and cruelty, which thou wilt groan under, but shalt not be able to deliver thyself from it. See 1Co 14:34; 1Ti 2:11-12; 1Pe 3:6."

Robert L. Dabney, 19th Century Presbyterian Theologian on women voting -
"What those influences will be may be learned by every one who reverences the Christian Scriptures, from this fact, that the theory of “Women’s Rights” is sheer infidelity. It directly impugns the authority and the justice of these Scriptures. They speak in no uncertain tones. “The husband is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord” (v. 22). “The man is not for the woman, but the woman for the man” (1 Cor. 2:9). “Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection: but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence: for Adam was first formed, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:11–14). They are to be “discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands,” etc. (Titus 2:5)."

Does the Bible give a woman the right to cancel out her husband, father or brother's vote with her secret vote. Had the body of Christ been so wrong on this matter for 1900 years, until mankind became so wise? Is the USA more godly today than it was 100 years ago?

Eddie,

I note you cited 1 Cor 14:34 (ESV), "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

How can a woman "keep silent in the churches" and still practice 1 Cor 11:5 (ESV), "every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven." Prophecy is a ministry which one does verbally. So, Paul's instruction of women to keep silent had nothing to do with total silence in the Corinthian or contemporary church. You can't be silent and practice prophecy.

There were some practices at Corinth that needed to be curbed and the women had to ask their husbands about them. See 1 Cor 14 (ESV).

This is the ministry of both men and women when the church gathers: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up" (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

It is amazing how far the churches have drifted away from this teaching.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Hawkman
Just trying to adjust to my new life after my life's partner passed on and left me behind.

I check in every now and then but am finding it difficult to post...

But I'm happy you tagged me on this one!
It's a blast. I sure hope some persons are not married.

See you around.

wondering,

I'm so sad to hear your hubby has passed away. He will leave a big hole in your life, even though he wasn't well in his latter years.

I'm not married.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

"My people—children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your leaders mislead you, and confuse the course of your paths." (Isa 3:12, NRSV, 1989c)

"Then God said to the woman, 'I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain.
You will greatly desire [the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.'" (Gen 3:16, Expanded Bible 2011c, Thomas Nelson Inc.)

Matthew Poole 17th Century, comment on Gen. 3:16 -
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband; thy desires shall be referred or submitted to thy husband’s will and pleasure to grant or deny them, as he sees fit. Which sense is confirmed from Gen 4:7, where the same phrase is used in the same sense. And this punishment was both very proper for her that committed so great an error, as the eating of the forbidden fruit was, in compliance with her own desire, without asking her husband’s advice or consent, as in all reason she should have done in so weighty and doubtful a matter; and very grievous to her, because women’s affections use to be vehement, and it is irksome to them to have them restrained or denied. Seeing, for want of thy husband’s rule and conduct, thou wast seduced by the serpent, and didst abuse that power I gave thee together with thy husband to draw him to sin, thou shalt now be brought down to a lower degree, for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor, to whom I have now given a greater power and authority over thee than he had before, (which through thy pride and corruption will be far more uneasy unto thee than his former empire was), and who will usurp a further power than I have given him, and will, by my permission, for thy punishment, rule thee many times with rigour, tyranny, and cruelty, which thou wilt groan under, but shalt not be able to deliver thyself from it. See 1Co 14:34; 1Ti 2:11-12; 1Pe 3:6."

Robert L. Dabney, 19th Century Presbyterian Theologian on women voting -
"What those influences will be may be learned by every one who reverences the Christian Scriptures, from this fact, that the theory of “Women’s Rights” is sheer infidelity. It directly impugns the authority and the justice of these Scriptures. They speak in no uncertain tones. “The husband is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord” (v. 22). “The man is not for the woman, but the woman for the man” (1 Cor. 2:9). “Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection: but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence: for Adam was first formed, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:11–14). They are to be “discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands,” etc. (Titus 2:5)."

Does the Bible give a woman the right to cancel out her husband, father or brother's vote with her secret vote. Had the body of Christ been so wrong on this matter for 1900 years, until mankind became so wise? Is the USA more godly today than it was 100 years ago?

Are you talking about voting for a female pastor or female for President of the USA? We have previously had a female Prime Minister of Australia, Julia Gillard.

From the other information you posted, it seems you are referring to women in leadership in the local church. With sadness I admit that in my local church, women are placed on a "lower level" then males.

Oz

Oz

 

[eddif]

Anna who? What does she have to do with the OP subject?

I am so glad you asked

Luke 2:36 kjv
36. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37. And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

With a little imagination:
Jesus is our bridegroom.
The OP leaps in time from Moses to
17th century to 19th century till now and back.

If the OP can time travel I suppose we can also.

Anna is serving her new and eternal bridegroom (in a sense) as she prophesies.

The husband wife relationship is to be honored..

Actually IMHO we all have a bridegroom (Jesus).. This is a higher order than human husband and wife (but a shadow relationship of things to come). So our thoughts should tend toward understanding our higher relationship.

I will let you re express in better words .

eddif

 

[eddif]

Eddie,

I note you cited 1 Cor 14:34 (ESV), "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

How can a woman "keep silent in the churches" and still practice 1 Cor 11:5 (ESV), "every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven." Prophecy is a ministry which one does verbally. So, Paul's instruction of women to keep silent had nothing to do with total silence in the Corinthian or contemporary church. You can't be silent and practice prophecy.

There were some practices at Corinth that needed to be curbed and the women had to ask their husbands about them. See 1 Cor 14 (ESV).

This is the ministry of both men and women when the church gathers: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up" (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

It is amazing how far the churches have drifted away from this teaching.

Oz

Very good post.

I will make a comment. Our (sons and daughters) carnal minds just need to shut up, so that we may utter prophecy.
The woman part remains silent but the spirit part may speak. Now I do not have a rule for getting this done. Perhaps a woman can recognize her carnal mind is trying to speak and talk to her husband first (at home). Perhaps the husband and wife can decide with a touch or look. God’s message needs to be spoken and not our thoughts.
I suppose if I did this in the flesh (chastise me).

eddif

 

[D-D-W]

I am very surprised that no one has stopped in this thread to consider this passage, which is considered the pinnacle of biblical womanhood:

Proverbs 31:10
An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels.
11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life.
13 She looks for wool and flax And works with her hands in delight.
14 She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar.
15 She rises also while it is still night And gives food to her household And portions to her maidens.
16 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong.
18 She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future.
26 She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27 She looks well to the ways of her household, And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:
29 “Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates.

 

[eddif]

I am very surprised that no one has stopped in this thread to consider this passage, which is considered the pinnacle of biblical womanhood:

Proverbs 31:10
An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels.
11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life.
13 She looks for wool and flax And works with her hands in delight.
14 She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar.
15 She rises also while it is still night And gives food to her household And portions to her maidens.
16 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong.
18 She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future.
26 She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27 She looks well to the ways of her household, And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:
29 “Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates.

Acts 8:34 kjv
34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35. Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

IMHO When you find a passage like you quoted, the deeper meta meaning is implied. While it is about the good wife, it is also about the bride of Christ Jesus. So often we only see that time in history, when the passage is actually a hidden hint of the future.

We open our mouth to speak of the Lord Jesus. Male and female today praise the Lord. We help those I need.

Excellent post D-D-W

 

[eddif]

I am very surprised that no one has stopped in this thread to consider this passage, which is considered the pinnacle of biblical womanhood:

Proverbs 31:10
An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels.
11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life.
13 She looks for wool and flax And works with her hands in delight.
14 She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar.
15 She rises also while it is still night And gives food to her household And portions to her maidens.
16 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong.
18 She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future.
26 She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27 She looks well to the ways of her household, And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:
29 “Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates.

Also the OP Isaiah passage is from the time just before the 400 years of silence (right before the destruction of Jerusalem). This is a time of sin.

Your proverbs post is under the reign (?) of King David’s rule. Wisdom is promoted by David.

So there is a tremendous difference in the time frames.

You done good. Kind of a southern version of very good passage selection, and maybe a breaking point of this discussion about women.

eddif

 

[Eddie42]

Eddie,

I note you cited 1 Cor 14:34 (ESV), "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

How can a woman "keep silent in the churches" and still practice 1 Cor 11:5 (ESV), "every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven." Prophecy is a ministry which one does verbally. So, Paul's instruction of women to keep silent had nothing to do with total silence in the Corinthian or contemporary church. You can't be silent and practice prophecy.

There were some practices at Corinth that needed to be curbed and the women had to ask their husbands about them. See 1 Cor 14 (ESV).

This is the ministry of both men and women when the church gathers: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up" (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

It is amazing how far the churches have drifted away from this teaching.

Oz

Your reference of 1 Cor 11:5 is not speaking about in the church. The discussion of church comes later in the chapter:

"Now in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, to begin with, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and to some extent I believe it." (1Cor 11:17-18, NRSV)

 

[Eddie42]

"My people—children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your leaders mislead you, and confuse the course of your paths." (Isa 3:12, NRSV, 1989c)

"Then God said to the woman, 'I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain.
You will greatly desire [the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.'" (Gen 3:16, Expanded Bible 2011c, Thomas Nelson Inc.)

Matthew Poole 17th Century, comment on Gen. 3:16 -
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband; thy desires shall be referred or submitted to thy husband’s will and pleasure to grant or deny them, as he sees fit. Which sense is confirmed from Gen 4:7, where the same phrase is used in the same sense. And this punishment was both very proper for her that committed so great an error, as the eating of the forbidden fruit was, in compliance with her own desire, without asking her husband’s advice or consent, as in all reason she should have done in so weighty and doubtful a matter; and very grievous to her, because women’s affections use to be vehement, and it is irksome to them to have them restrained or denied. Seeing, for want of thy husband’s rule and conduct, thou wast seduced by the serpent, and didst abuse that power I gave thee together with thy husband to draw him to sin, thou shalt now be brought down to a lower degree, for he shall rule thee; not with that sweet and gentle hand which he formerly used, as a guide and counsellor only, but by a higher and harder hand, as a lord and governor, to whom I have now given a greater power and authority over thee than he had before, (which through thy pride and corruption will be far more uneasy unto thee than his former empire was), and who will usurp a further power than I have given him, and will, by my permission, for thy punishment, rule thee many times with rigour, tyranny, and cruelty, which thou wilt groan under, but shalt not be able to deliver thyself from it. See 1Co 14:34; 1Ti 2:11-12; 1Pe 3:6."

Robert L. Dabney, 19th Century Presbyterian Theologian on women voting -
"What those influences will be may be learned by every one who reverences the Christian Scriptures, from this fact, that the theory of “Women’s Rights” is sheer infidelity. It directly impugns the authority and the justice of these Scriptures. They speak in no uncertain tones. “The husband is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord” (v. 22). “The man is not for the woman, but the woman for the man” (1 Cor. 2:9). “Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection: but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence: for Adam was first formed, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:11–14). They are to be “discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands,” etc. (Titus 2:5)."

Does the Bible give a woman the right to cancel out her husband, father or brother's vote with her secret vote. Had the body of Christ been so wrong on this matter for 1900 years, until mankind became so wise? Is the USA more godly today than it was 100 years ago?

In reading through the posts or replies here a verse came to my mind, a verse twice used in the book of Judges.

"In those days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own eyes." (Judg 17:6, NRSV)

The British Methodist Adam Clarke commenting on this verse states:

"He was his own governor, and what he did he said was right; and, by his cunning and strength, defended his conduct. When a man's own will, passions, and caprice, are to be made the rule of law, society is in a most perilous and ruinous state."

Matthew Poole the 17th century scholar comments thus:

"i.e. not what pleased God, but what best suited his own fancy or lusts."

 

[eddif]

Philippians 2:13 kjv
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Revelation 3:20 kjv
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1 Corinthians 15:45 kjv
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I am so glad a new and better covenant exists now

eddif

 

[hawkman]

Hence forth Matthew Poole shall be known to me as , " Matthew Poole Knight of The Higher and Harder Hand " lest I forget what he said .

 

[D-D-W]

Your proverbs post is under the reign (?) of King David’s rule. Wisdom is promoted by David.

Actually that would have been Solomon, David's son. Circa 1000 bc

 

[D-D-W]

The Proverbs 31 woman was no slouch and no shrinking violet as many in modern evangelical circles would like to make her. She not only took care of her husband and children, she had both manufacturing and real estate businesses going as well.

 

[eddif]

Actually that would have been Solomon, David's son. Circa 1000 bc

You did note the question mark?

And there is much to the question mark.
2 Samuel 7:12 kjv (and before)
12. And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15. But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

So.
Although Solomon reigned he was the son of David and the prophet was speaking to David. Jesus was known as the son oh David and his kingdom will never end.

eddif

 

[eddif]

The Proverbs 31 woman was no slouch and no shrinking violet as many in modern evangelical circles would like to make her. She not only took care of her husband and children, she had both manufacturing and real estate businesses going as well.

Solomon’s foreign wives led him astray, but the godly woman description lives because of the prophetic word to David. Today christians are under the house of David. Which may upset Gentiles a bunch, and maybe a Jewish person or two. LOL. We (male and female) are part of the bride.

eddif

 

[D-D-W]

You did note the question mark?

I did. That is why I wanted to set the proper timeline. Solomon wrote the book of Proverbs.

Although Solomon reigned he was the son of David and the prophet was speaking to David. Jesus was known as the son oh David and his kingdom will never end.

And the son thru which the royal lineage was counted. And Solomon was given a special divine gift of wisdom, predating the gifting in 1 Cor 12. The book of Proverbs was from that gifting. However, like all of the gifts; "the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;" (1 Cor 14.32) and Sol did not continue to walk in that wisdom as he grew old. Unfortunately.