Can woman teach man in the church?

[lovely]

For me, I have learned the best way to bring glory to God is to be who He created me to be, and not reject that role for some deceptive, and cheap, sense of worth, or for some fruitless attempt to have equality with men. These things have no value for the believer, and will perish. It's a waste of our time. It's so obvious that satan's efforts have been to reverse our roles and distort God's plans for marriage, family, and the Body, why not stand against them? The women of the church should be more bold about teaching the younger women what God says about the matter, and not be shushed by the 'jezebel' spirit that Cornelious mentioned.

Feminism, which is one of this world's most satanic teachings, has duped women into believing that they are nothing when they embrace their natural God-given feminine design...and it has invaded the church, and is preached from it's pulpits. Eve is still being deceived anew with every generation, and many men are going right along with it due to their own cowardace and complacency. This should be what makes women of God angry, not the truth. If the Word of God is being blasphemed in our generation, and it is, then it is up to the older women to teach the younger the importance of their role in God's plan and how that relates to marriage, the family, and the body. They should teach them to stand against the world, it's false idea of a woman's role and identity, and bear their shame and mockery for Christ. They should be taught not to love it, it's ways, or seek to be sucked in by it's messages of empowerment and elevation of women. The world has used women up and degraded them more than the church ever has, robbing them of modesty and wisdom, and yet we remain loyal and serving to their false teachings. It is grievous, and it has found it's way in to the church.

I think this topic divides because we lack love within the body and we stay defensive and unforgiving about these matters. Men and women both have been guilty of not looking at the Scripture and just submitting to it. I would like to encourage my sisters to support brothers who do speak the whole counsel of God on this matter, even if we are not in exact agreement. As women, we do not have something to prove with our gifts. We do not want to be guilty of using them for vain glory, rather than using them in love to edify the church and promote growth. Let's submit to one another and not see our own rights, or our own glory.

If we consider the whole counsel of Scripture, we do not need to make arguments concerning this matter, we just need to be obedient and led by the Spirit. Women do not have to become defensive everytime a believing man, or woman, openly shares the truth of the Word on this subject...we don't have to make a list of all the women in the Word that we feel somehow justify feminism. There are NO examples of this!!!! Godly women in the Word, I am positive, would prefer NOT to have their lives offered up as examples to be used to support the condition of the church today, or the blasphemous role that women have assumed, and have been pressed in to, in the midst of it. Let's receive the truth, and be prepared to obey whatever the cost...and, yes, there is a cost.

If the church is sound, then the gifts of those in the body will be utilized within God's framework, and this model, if obeyed, will exceed what man can do in himself. Imagine if we all just sought to edify the body with love, submit to one another, and bring glory to God with our obedience to Him alone. This is health, growth, and maturity. As a woman, I will never stop teaching these things to younger women, and I encourage other women to do the same for the sake of Christ and the body.

I apologize for the length to the moderators, and for being slightly off topic. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[destiny]

Feminism, which is one of this world's most satanic teachings, has duped women into believing that they are nothing when they embrace their natural God-given feminine design...and it has invaded the church, and is preached from it's pulpits.

There are woman who are killed in other countries just because they are woman. Girl babies are shunned and killed because they aren't boys in India. There is more going on in the world than the ills of feminism. We should be submissive, but to Jesus Christ first, and never have a door-mat mentality.

 

[lovely]

destiny,

I just read you last post, and I realize it wasn't written to me, but I wanted to comment anyway. I agree that we can tend to go to blame shifting with this topic, but I don't think we should forget that when there is blame to be had we should just accept it and not try to justify sinful behavior...which is another thing these discussions tend to lead to...and I hate that there is a lack of repentance in women. Anyway, repentance needs to come from both sides, but the women need to be willing to come back to God's order either way. I didn't think we disagreed about this topic, but I could be mistaken.

The sins of the world are great apart from Jesus, destiny, because of many false gods and false teachings. Feminism is one who has been severly destructive here with our own daughters and children, and especially to the church of Christ. There are women here who are used up daily in the name of feminism, promoted as sex things, dishonored, wearing themselves out for material things, children are being harmed and neglected...and so on. We can't minimize it, it's destructive and we should teach against it.

The Lord bless you.

 

[lovely]

One last though, Jamie, the 'door mat mentality' is a worldy view to me. Jesus laid down His life when He could have called a legion of angels to save me. I desire to see my sisters do the same for Him. To see a woman honor God with her life may make her appear to be a door mat, but the reality is that she has been given great grace and strength by our Father God. The Lord bless you.

 

[destiny]

destiny,

I just read you last post, and I realize it wasn't written to me, but I wanted to comment anyway. I agree that we can tend to go to blame shifting with this topic, but I don't think we should forget that when there is blame to be had we should just accept it and not try to justify sinful behavior...which is another thing these discussions tend to lead to...and I hate that there is a lack of repentance in women. Anyway, repentance needs to come from both sides, but the women need to be willing to come back to God's order either way. I didn't think we disagreed about this topic, but I could be mistaken.

The sins of the world are great apart from Jesus, destiny, because of many false gods and false teachings. Feminism is one who has been severly destructive here with our own daughters and children, and especially to the church of Christ. There are women here who are used up daily in the name of feminism, promoted as sex things, dishonored, wearing themselves out for material things, children are being harmed and neglected...and so on. We can't minimize it, it's destructive and we should teach against it.

The Lord bless you.

Lovely, you seem to think woman are the predominate issue, and I don't see it that way. I don't know of any woman who are taking over any churches or assemblies, although there are isolated cases.
I do however see men playing the role of wolves in sheeps clothing tearing apart Gods innocent lambs. Yet, when this topic is discussed woman usually end up taking the blame for what men are doing, or not doing. Sorry if someone thinks that makes me nonspiritual and unsubmissive.

Let me ask you an honest question: Do you "submit" to men of wrong doing, such as apostasy, or error and false teachings in general, because you feel it is in gods order for you to do so?

 

[lovely]

No, I don't believe women are the predominant issue at all, just the opposite, because the men are called to be leaders...it is ultimately a lack of leadership. I just think that to stop the blame game, is to accept responsibility.

My point is that as women we must be willing to come back, because the men can not make us...just as we can not make them lead. So, I think justifying our own part in the matter should be discouraged, and spoken against. We should promote repentance among women.

No, I do not follow any man who leads in apostacy, but I also do not believe the Scripture calls me to...just the opposite. I submit to my elders, because they are qualified and have been called to their positions...just as they should be as you correctly pointed out in another post. We agree about the body, I think. By the same token, I would leave that assembly if they decided to make a woman an elder...just as I would leave if an unqualified man became an elder. Better no one, than someone who isn't called to the position through the Word, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This has been one of the biggest failures of the body. God gives us a map, we ignore it, and yet still expect to arrive at our destination...maturity.

I am sorry if I upset you. This may be one of those times when we are miscommunicating, or when we just simply disagree. The Lord bless you, and you know I love you.

 

[destiny]

I'm not upset, my heart rate hasn't increased a bit! (seriously)

I'll leave things alone for now, but I can't deny what I see out there. Bless you, lovely, you are a beautiful sister in Christ and I value you. We all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[destiny]

PS.. I really wasn't calling you a doormat, lovely.. i was just using the term in general. It means not having a godly submission but a misguided one. Such as the Nicolaitans did.

 

[Cornelius]

You are quoting a verse from the Old testament concerning the Jews during an isolated period of time, right? This is not the norm throughout the (whole) context of OT scripture, and certainly not the new. So it shouldn't be cited to prove woman are ruling over men in todays churches, although it is apparent it was not Gods order.

It is simply a principle of God. He does not change. In the old Testament, when God called woman, it was because the men were so hopeless. (But this is not the thread to discuss the Old testament and its meaning today )

I agree. But why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, since the "good ole boy" system of men is much worse than anything woman have ever done to the church? My point being that these topics always lead to blame shifting. Men are to submit to Gods order too, but that isn't happening nor is it discussed.
I think true called Godly leadership brings out the best in the body of Christ, to the glory of God. Thats all I have to add

I agree. If you read some of my other posts, you will see that I am addressing the issue of the church and its present day leadership (male) Many (not all) of the men , that are leading the church today are out of order. Personally, I think that woman can even do a better job, but it is not God's way, so I will not even go there. I have nothing against woman at all.But I do fear God and do not want to bring in my own ideas and throw His out.
I am all for true leadership in the church.

 

[Cornelius]

No, I don't believe women are the predominant issue at all, just the opposite, because the men are called to be leaders...it is ultimately a lack of leadership. I just think that to stop the blame game, is to accept responsibility.

My point is that as women we must be willing to come back, because the men can not make us...just as we can not make them lead. So, I think justifying our own part in the matter should be discouraged, and spoken against. We should promote repentance among women.

No, I do not follow any man who leads in apostacy, but I also do not believe the Scripture calls me to...just the opposite. I submit to my elders, because they are qualified and have been called to their positions...just as they should be as you correctly pointed out in another post. We agree about the body, I think. By the same token, I would leave that assembly if they decided to make a woman an elder...just as I would leave if an unqualified man became an elder. Better no one, than someone who isn't called to the position through the Word, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This has been one of the biggest failures of the body. God gives us a map, we ignore it, and yet still expect to arrive at our destination...maturity.

I am sorry if I upset you. This may be one of those times when we are miscommunicating, or when we just simply disagree. The Lord bless you, and you know I love you.

Amen Nobody must submit to apostate leadership. Better to leave and not feed on their food they give to the flock. You are also right about what you say about elders.

Good post
C

 

[lovely]

Destiny,

No worries concerning the 'doormat' thing. I understand what you mean now, and it didn't occur to me to take personal offense...I know you better than that, and I am use to your style of posting. Unfortunately, I am still asking God to help me learn how to obey Him better in these areas and am still far from where I would like to be...where I think He would like me to be...but I receive your point. It is a good one, because while I don't want to disobey God, I also don't want to be guilty of just reacting to the world and making up my own righteousness. I don't want to be a member of 'extra biblical activities'. I just want to obey the word with out adding in or taking away...which has required a never ending surgery on my heart and mind. So, if I lean toward door-mat, I apologize, and I pray that the Lord can help me get it all right as I go.

The Lord bless you, and as always you make me think.

 

[destiny]

I agree. If you read some of my other posts, you will see that I am addressing the issue of the church and its present day leadership (male) Many (not all) of the men , that are leading the church today are out of order. Personally, I think that woman can even do a better job, but it is not God's way, so I will not even go there. I have nothing against woman at all.But I do fear God and do not want to bring in my own ideas and throw His out.
I am all for true leadership in the church.

A friend wrote this, but I think it's true for leadership and assembly as well as husband and wives(at least it's the ideal way)..

Where we find the latter (husbands loving wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it), we find the former (wives submitting themselves to their husbands in every thing). The husband must be the first to demonstrate the fruits which he desires to see in his wife: faith, love, humility, gentleness, patience, kindness, goodness, peace, and joy (Galatians 5:22-23). He must be the first to serve the needs of the family, to forgive, and to model repentance when he first fails to model obedience. In this, the power of the Spirit works through the husband to cleanse and sanctify the relationship which he has with his wife: she partaking with her husband in the grace which is bestowed upon them through her husband’s obedience; so that she becomes beautiful in all spiritual things. In this way, both husband and wives are able to fulfill the commandment of God concerning them: “Submit yourselves to one another in the fear of God,†(Ephesians 5:21).

There are no "lords" except the one true Lord, in that.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

One thing I know. I will not be able to change your mind about it. If you will not submit to the Word of God, why will you submit to anything that a person tells you ? You will not.

1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
You say: let woman not keep silent in the churches, because they are permitted to speak.

The Bible says:1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

You say: I permit a woman to teach and have dominion over a man, and they must not be quiet.

You would forgive me, for rather believing what the Bible says.You might also understand why this is a ridiculous discussion, when the Bible is so clear about it.

C

1 Corinthians 14:35

"And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

Why this passage was pointing out certain things that needed to change in the church:

1.Not all of the Corinthian women had husbands (1 Cor. 7).
2.Some of the women who had husbands weren’t married to Christians (1 Cor. 7).
3.The questions of even those women who were married to Christians probably couldn’t have been answered by some of their husbands, since many were still carnal (I Cor. chapters 1 & 3).
5.Logically, the only individuals who would be able to answer all questions about what was being said would be those who were speaking.

For these reasons, we can rationally conclude that in this passage of scripture, Paul was telling the church of Corinth that the women needed to shut their mouths and just listen, instead of chattering and asking questions during church service. It's a simple request that should apply to anyone listening to someone who is speaking in public. The husbands probably couldn't have answered their questions, anyway.

It's the equivalent of me saying "We have a problem here. There are some people that insist upon talking with their significant others while someone is trying teach a class . It's rude, and if they want to discuss what's being said with their significant others, they can just wait until they get home."

1Ti 2:12: I believe the operative word in your quote is "I".

 

[Cornelius]

The Bible says:1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

What Paul brought was the Word of God.

1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

You holding the Word of God in your hands, when you read the Bible. Its not mixed with the opinions of man.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

You know,

I have a good friend that is a teacher at a public college here in the state. Before the start of each quarter, she sits in every seat in the classroom and prays for the students that will occupy those seats, and asks God to send her at least one student that needs help. Every quarter, for the last 7 or 8 years, she's gotten at least one student. At least one person approaches her from one of her classes every quarter and wants to know what she has done differently in life to get to the place she is in. She tells them that the difference is Jesus Christ. She conducts seminars in at least two churches here in Olympia regularly, and has been active in teaching and ministering several churches here for many years. The simple fact that is that her life shows the presence of God through and through, and she always gets her student. Her life would not be the way that it is without the presence of the Lord in it, and she's an absolute unwavering example of a Christian. Faith and submission to the word of God produces fruit, and it is the evidence of that we can depend on to show us that a person has the holy spirit at work in them. You can't say that she lacks faith or that she's disobeying God's intentions for her. Her life and works show very differently. I'm sure if she was lukewarm and making her own bible reality, God would have spit her out of his mouth a long time ago.

 

[Cornelius]

You must admit that you are accepting it as....."the word of men" (Rather as you say: "the word of a man....Paul" )

The Thessalonian believers, believed the opposite to what you believe:


1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

 

[Cornelius]

You know,

I have a good friend that is a teacher at a public college here in the state.

I am happy for your friend, but I cannot take her life and override what the Bible says.I am not trying to be difficult, nor argumentative about it. My purpose in all this is simply to show a better way. A way, where God's FULL blessing can come through. It only happens, when we are fully submitted to the Word of God and leave our own ideas out of it.

I use to live my life partly under submission to the Word of God , most of my life. I know what it is like. When God started changing me, He brought my more and more under His Word. I started dying to self. I started leaving "me" out and bringing Him in, more and more. Then, not only did my spiritual life change, but my physical life too. Even the things that happens on a daily basis, started to take on a life of their own. God's life. He started moving on my behalf.

The more we submit, the more God will move.

I am telling you this, because I love the people of God, not because I personally think that "woman must keep to their place" . I want the best for you too. I want you to walk in the fullness that God has prepared for you.

in Christ
C

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

The Bible says:1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

What Paul brought was the Word of God.

1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

You holding the Word of God in your hands, when you read the Bible. Its not mixed with the opinions of man.

Yeah, and I'm still operating under the assumption that Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy were written after Paul's death. Though inspired, they are inspired by the teachings of Paul, but became expanded on by his disciples to control certain situations that were going on in the churches at the time. Not like I trust all bible scholars, but I do believe things must be taken in context at all times to be understood. Like head coverings...evidently prostitutes back in the day used to shave their heads. Now did they mean put something over your head, like a head covering? Or did they mean don't walk into the house of the lord looking like a prostitute? Hmm. If I've having problems understanding something that just seems out of place with the rest of the bible, I generally try to understand why. That's why appologetics are so important -- we don't know what's in context anymore. We have to research history to try to place it within the boundaries that it was meant for. As well as context, we also have language translation to consider at times. It makes things difficult to discern what is meant at times. I do know that in various places thoughout the bible there are women disciples, witnesses, judges, prophets, and church representatives. So what's that supposed to mean when it's in direct conflict with the concepts mentioned in Timothy and Titus?

I accepted the Word of God -- the Good News/Gospel, a long time ago. And that was that Jesus laid down his life for me and removed the barrier between myself and God, so that I may have a relationship with him and have eternal life. I really do not believe that God particularly cares if I choose to speak in church or not, and if he did it would probably be really rather low on his priority list as far as things he would rather see or not see me doing while here on his Earth.

 

[Cornelius]

OK, now we have arrived at the root of your problem. Its that you do not believe that the Word of God as written in your hand today is really the Word of God. I can prove it, with science (mathematics) but I do not want to go there, if you are not interested. The I will leave the matter, so that you and God can resolve it.

As far as head coverings are concerned. Its not because of prostitutes, its because of angels.

1Co 11:10 for this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.

See, the angels rebelled against God , they moved out of their "stations". Now Christians willingly move under submission and the woman show this, with a head covering. The angels are looking at them and they know that this is an act of willing submission.

Also, hair is the glory of a woman.God also has glory. A woman, who covers her own glory, is doing so out of respect for the glory of God.

I have never told any woman in our fellowship to cover her hair. The Lord is the One who will tell them, IF they are listening to His voice.

Sister, you have a problem, that you need to sort out with the Lord. You need to look at your foundation. You are not believing the whole gospel, because the devil has robbed you . Do not believe me You MUST pray a simple prayer if you want to find out the truth.

Just pray: Lord , show me if the Bible is truly YOUR Word.

If nothing happens, then you are right.But ,when you pray, be sure you really want to know the truth and be sure that you really will change when He shows you. If you do not pray from the heart , you will not hear anything.

I will pray for you too.....and so will the rest who read this thread.

your brother
C

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

Let's back the dump truck up here just a minute. A question:

You don't believe that culture, history, and meaning influence the way things are taken into perception? Certainly, if you read line by line and take each verse literally and individually without taking into account various factors and situations, you come to very different conclusions than you would if you applied all the knowledge available to you into the situation. These are letters to the different churches we are talking about here. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John followed and preached the Gospel in their books, what Jesus said, and the message that he brought to the world from his Father. I can not find anywhere in these Gospels where Jesus ever treated a female as unequal to a male.

Jesus had a very radical view of women for his time. Jesus lived and preached in a time where it was commonly expressed that the Torah should rather be burned than entrusted to a woman. They also were not allowed to testify in a court of law, as their word was deemed to be no good. I believe also that they were not even allowed into the temple or synagogue...This was a society that was very diligent in keeping women less worthy than slaves or even dogs. They were "property" even -- as evidenced by their ability to be "inherited" or passed down to their husband's brothers after their spouses died.

Women were allowed to participate in the ministry of Jesus, to accompany him in his travels -- something completely unheard of for the time he lived in. He taught them, and treated them with reverence. He first appeared to women at the resurrection, and commissioned them to go and tell his disciples...women didn't flee the crucifixion, men did. You never addressed my question about how God appointing women as prophets, judges, witnesses and workers in Christ washes with the Pastoral Epistles. When you look at the bible as a whole, there are dozens of examples on both sides of this argument -- contradictions -- that can be pointed to. You just prefer Paul's letters to support your argument. I prefer to take what little examples there are to the contrary and my knowlege of how historically, women have been oppressed. (which is why I think there are little examples) The Gospels all cast women in an entirely different light when compared to most anywhere else in the bible, either before them, or after them...

If you claim to be looking at the entire bible, give me the reason why there are specific examples before/during the time Jesus was living that support women taking an active (not silent) role in the ministry of the church. Sorry, that was 3 questions, not 1. :naughty

And I'll pray your little prayer tonight, before I go to bed.