Can woman teach man in the church?

[destiny]

It comes down to rightly dividing the Word. I see what I see, and to deny what the word says in the context of what I understand it to mean, in line with the character of the God I know in my heart, would put me under the law of man, thinking my outward adornment could somehow put me in better standing with God, when it would only lead me (personally) into a bondage not so different than Islam.
Like Once saved always saved and pretrib versus posttrib etc., people interpret scripture according to their understanding and preconceived teachings. It is best to pray for those you feel are in essential error when all else fails, and then trust the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.

PS.. Those are my own views and weren't meant to attack anyone personally who doesn't share them.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

I am going to ask you this in love : Who is teaching you at this moment, because if you do not know the basics yet, then why are you forming such strong opinions? I mean this in all sincerity : You should be looking to change to another place of worship, because your current one is not teaching you. I do not want to offend you, but its important, because I am sure you know how important eternal life is and that you cannot entrust your life into the hands of men who do not know how to teach their flock.

C

Probably because I see so much disgusting sexism abound in the churches today that I'm flat sick of it. I am a fairly new Christian, and I do try to learn -- I study the bible and bible history every night. I do not wish to teach in the church, but I would much rather listen to a woman pastor than a male, if I had a choice. My daughter's school has a female children's pastor that sometimes substitutes for our regular pastor in our church services. She's listed as part of the pastoral team, and her official title is "Chaplain". This is fine, because I go by the official listed doctrines of the church and what they are teaching -- not who is teaching, just what.

Now, I decided to start going to my daughter's church instead of the Nazarene church I was previously attending specifically because of the sexist stereotyping I perceived was going on (I believe I've posted in other threads about this before). Nazarenes are rather strict, so I have no doubt they uphold and truly believe exactly what you are talking about. I have never seen anyone covering their heads, though. Oops -- there's a rather large woman that likes to dress like she's going to a costume party all the time, and she wears a huge floppy hat. And I've seen a few young men wearing baseball caps -- God helps to keep me from reaching out and knocking them off of their heads in the middle of service.

Satan sure does know how to get to me, because if there is one thing that will surely keep me away from ANY church, it's this. Definitely--it's a game-ender. I was in the Marine Corps for 4 1/2 years, and I struggled with sexist perceptions initially every time I got to a new duty station -- it's hard to let go of preconceived notions/misconceptions, but I think women have come a long way in their efforts to dispell that. I'm not a "submissive" person by nature, and the only one I feel comfortable submitting to is Jesus -- himself, not people who claim to be in authority for him on Earth. He said to keep His commandments, which hang on loving him and others, not worring about whether or not my head is covered, or which gender is better able to give me my weekly dose of scripture and lead a congregation.

thinking my outward adornment could somehow put me in better standing with God, when it would only lead me (personally) into a bondage not so different than Islam.

Right.

Everyone here seems to have a different opinion of almost every detail in the bible -- why do you think there's a debate forum on here? People disagree all the time. There's some arguments I perceive to be insignificant (Christians should/should not recycle, water baptism) but everyone has their own opinion as to why they hold the stance they do -- and they believe they have the "right" one. God expects everyone who knows the Truth to teach it to others, and the "church" is best served by having the most qualified person leading them, male or female. IMO.

 

[Cornelius]

Thanks for sharing a bit more EP

OK, just on the side, the men are not allowed to wear caps in church too. They are also then out of order. LOL

I agree with you about this: I do not believe that the Bible is talking about the kind of submission that we sometimes make it out to be. First, the church is not a place where anybody must lord it over anybody else, including women.

Mar 10:42 And Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they who are accounted to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great ones exercise authority over them.
Mar 10:43 But it is not so among you: but whosoever would become great among you, shall be your minister; (servant)
Mar 10:44 and whosoever would be first among you, shall be servant of all.

So if a man in church LORDS it over a woman, he is then part of the Nicolatian error, which Jesus hates.

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

(This when we are ruled over by somebody. When the laity is ruled over, by the clergy ) When there is anger in the "ruler", when he has no love, no respect, no servant heart.....get away from him.)

Submission is what men must do regarding Jesus. Believe me, that in some men, the male ego can step in and they refuse to submit to Him as well. Submission of a woman, never means you must stay under a wrong , hard or unfair system, ruled by men that are only "right" because they are men.

I have left the church system. I have said goodbye to the Nicolaitan error and only after I did this, did God start to teach me Himself.

1Jn 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

I am writing to you, because even though you do not know me, and even though you think I am trying to make a case for men, I am really writing to you , only because I love the people of God.And you are one of His people.

Hurts are real stuff. They influence how we see things. Something happened and changed your viewpoint. We cannot change without forgiveness. Forgiveness sets us free, to come into who we really are in Jesus.

I do not know what happened, but I am a man, and as a man, I can ask your forgiveness. So I do: I want to ask your forgiveness and I will stand here, in the place of the man who should be standing here.Please forgive me for (you fill it in........)

your brother
Cornelius

 

[Justice]

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Yes that is true. Today we have spiritual infants on our pulpits and woman are ruling as well. The Bible teaches that they both lead God's people into error and they destroy the paths.

We have a Jezebel spirit today that we honor and welcome into the church.But the church is also paying dearly for it . It has been reaping spiritual immaturity.

Hello everyone!

I just had to ask Cornelius if he thinks that Deborah's leadership caused the people to err?

Can you explain John's letter to the elect lady and her children?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... &version=9

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/pastors.htm

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

I am saved today because someone showed me love. I am not saved because I was beat over the head with my sins, or because I was thrown into submission; I was saved because someone showed me the love of Christ.

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

"children are their oppressors" = immature people.
"Women will rule over them" = see verses 3:16-26. I love the imagery there, though -- it reminds me much of the well-to-do women I see congregating in groups in the church that give you a once-over when you approach them to see if you "fit in" with them. Women are notoriously vain -- I do see why they are used as an example of such frequently.

Hurts are real stuff. They influence how we see things. Something happened and changed your viewpoint. We cannot change without forgiveness. Forgiveness sets us free, to come into who we really are in Jesus.

I do not know what happened, but I am a man, and as a man, I can ask your forgiveness. So I do: I want to ask your forgiveness and I will stand here, in the place of the man who should be standing here.Please forgive me for (you fill it in........)

Cornelius, I really do appreciate what I *think* you are trying to do here...but I don't think you "get" it, at all. I don't think I can make you "get" it, either. There are no psychological "hurts", or abuses by men, and I'm not a man-hater. I am seriously thinking about what to write next right now, because your post began so beautifully, and then you ended it with this. You are still not thinking in terms of "persons", but are separating male and female. Certainly we all have hurts, but you just assumed that this must be my "problem". My "problem" is perception.

More posting later, after I get over the shock of someone going from biblically rooted scripture to psychoanalyzation as a (last?) resort.

:bigfrown

 

[Cornelius]

I am saved today because someone showed me love. I am not saved because I was beat over the head with my sins, or because I was thrown into submission; I was saved because someone showed me the love of Christ.

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

"children are their oppressors" = immature people.
"Women will rule over them" = see verses 3:16-26. I love the imagery there, though -- it reminds me much of the well-to-do women I see congregating in groups in the church that give you a once-over when you approach them to see if you "fit in" with them. Women are notoriously vain -- I do see why they are used as an example of such frequently.

Hurts are real stuff. They influence how we see things. Something happened and changed your viewpoint. We cannot change without forgiveness. Forgiveness sets us free, to come into who we really are in Jesus.

I do not know what happened, but I am a man, and as a man, I can ask your forgiveness. So I do: I want to ask your forgiveness and I will stand here, in the place of the man who should be standing here.Please forgive me for (you fill it in........)

Cornelius, I really do appreciate what I *think* you are trying to do here...but I don't think you "get" it, at all. I don't think I can make you "get" it, either. There are no psychological "hurts", or abuses by men, and I'm not a man-hater. I am seriously thinking about what to write next right now, because your post began so beautifully, and then you ended it with this. You are still not thinking in terms of "persons", but are separating male and female. Certainly we all have hurts, but you just assumed that this must be my "problem". My "problem" is perception.

More posting later, after I get over the shock of someone going from biblically rooted scripture to psychoanalyzation as a (last?) resort.

:bigfrown

I do not want to get personal, so forget it, if it does not apply. If you have no unforgiveness in your heart, then praise the Lord. Then we do not have to first work through this, before you can submit to the Word of God.
If there are no hurts to work through, then we are back to just plain bad teaching and/or rebellion towards the Word of God. Then you must look at why you want to insert your opinions into the Word.

You told me you are a young Christian, and yet you have formed an opinion about the Word of God and you are now teaching this on a world wide platform.Somebody taught you this, and it is not God (God does not contradict His own word)

 

[Cornelius]

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Yes that is true. Today we have spiritual infants on our pulpits and woman are ruling as well. The Bible teaches that they both lead God's people into error and they destroy the paths.

We have a Jezebel spirit today that we honor and welcome into the church.But the church is also paying dearly for it . It has been reaping spiritual immaturity.

Hello everyone!

I just had to ask Cornelius if he thinks that Deborah's leadership caused the people to err?

Can you explain John's letter to the elect lady and her children?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... &version=9

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/pastors.htm

Deborah is Old Testament, she is not part of our Covenant.
Deborah was a judge, not a pastor or teacher. She did not fill any New Testament office.

Never the less, I will show you something in this story:They were in captivity, because they (Israel) did evil in the sight of the Lord. Deborah, was a prophetess (NT also tells us that woman are allowed to prophesy) . But notice that when a MAN (Barak) did not want to fulfill his duty and take his position, she then told him that because he gave this position to her (Deborah) this will not be for honor, but the honor will pass to a woman.



Jdg 4:1 And the children of Israel again did that which was evil in the sight of Jehovah, when Ehud was dead.
Jdg 4:2 And Jehovah sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, who dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.
Jdg 4:3 And the children of Israel cried unto Jehovah: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.
Jdg 4:4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
Jdg 4:5 And she dwelt under the palm-tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in the hill-country of Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.
Jdg 4:6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not Jehovah, the God of Israel, commanded, saying, Go and draw unto mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Jdg 4:7 And I will draw unto thee, to the river Kishon, Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thy hand.
Jdg 4:8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go; but if thou wilt not go with me, I will not go.
Jdg 4:9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding, the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honor; for Jehovah will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

 

[Cornelius]

Can you explain John's letter to the elect lady and her children?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... &version=9

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/pastors.htm

2 John 1

1The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

3Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

4I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

5And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

12Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

13The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Its a great letter and all is true. It does not mention or indicate that woman must teach and rule over the church.

 

[Cornelius]

I think that I am done with this thread.

Last thing: The matter about woman being silent in the church is not because they cannot make a sound. They can speak. But it points very directly to the husbands of the woman as well. So it is saying : Ladies, honor your husbands and do not go over their heads to the preacher . Ask them FIRST. If you ask questions and you have not asked your husbands at home first, you are in fact saying: I do not trust my husband, so tell me what YOU think.
Husbands, honor your wives and search with them for answers , through prayer and your personal relationship with the Lord. The Lord is well and able to tell you the answers to your questions if you trust Him to do that.

Honor the Word.

C

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

You told me you are a young Christian, and yet you have formed an opinion about the Word of God and you are now teaching this on a world wide platform.Somebody taught you this, and it is not God (God does not contradict His own word)

I'm not teaching anything -- we're having a discussion, and everyone is participating. That's what "forums" are for. No one "taught" me anything -- My impressions of things are based on the picture I have of Christ's salvation as a whole. I didn't read through things with a gender discerning lens, separating "man" and "mankind" from "women and womenkind". Maybe my problem is that I'm focusing too much on the message of hope and salvation in the bible, because that's really the meat and potatoes of the meal.

God doesn't contradict his own word, but just as I discard how you choose to interpret certain things, there are those that you have chosen to discard as well. Christ already came and took away all the sin that separated us from God, and Christ took away all the old laws of the Torah. So why should I even begin to think that as we are all one in Christ, I am of a lower station here on this Earth than a fellow brother in Christ, within whose body we both dwell?

You're right -- I don't feel like discussing this anymore, because I know that we won't agree. We don't have to, and it's okay. You feel as though no one from another gender could possibly be of any spiritual influence in the Church, and you only have things to learn from men who have spiritual influence, because they're the only ones competent to be able to teach the words of God. I hear you, and you are welcome to your opinion. Even if you are wrong, I'm sure you won't be burning in hell, because your intent is to obey what you perceive the law is -- you honestly believe you are following the Lord's commandments. I honestly believe differently, and my intent isn't to dishonor God in any way either.

 

[turnorburn]

It comes down to rightly dividing the Word. I see what I see, and to deny what the word says in the context of what I understand it to mean, in line with the character of the God I know in my heart, would put me under the law of man, thinking my outward adornment could somehow put me in better standing with God, when it would only lead me (personally) into a bondage not so different than Islam.
Like Once saved always saved and pretrib versus posttrib etc., people interpret scripture according to their understanding and preconceived teachings. It is best to pray for those you feel are in essential error when all else fails, and then trust the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.

PS.. Those are my own views and weren't meant to attack anyone personally who doesn't share them.

Destiny has it right.

Like Once saved always saved and pretrib versus posttrib etc., people interpret scripture according to their understanding and preconceived teachings. It is best to pray for those you feel are in essential error when all else fails, and then trust the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.

When she says preconceived ideas, mans worst enemy if he wants to know God and
Jesus Christ whom he sent into this dark and wicked world.

tunorburn

 

[Justice]

I believe in the Godhead but many Church leaders have bypassed Jesus and jumped over God to do the same thing that Lucifer was cast out of heaven for. Genesis 3:5 satan used “ye shall be as Gods†(his own desire) to lie and introduce sin to mankind. Not much has changed.

Revelation 22: 18-19
18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Knowing there will be 2 witnesses is not enough most have to name them. There are no new revelations but that has never stopped the perversion of God’s word. There’s the book of Mormon, the Quran, the so called lost books, the left behind mumbo jumbo and so forth. If people truly believe that God created everything in 6 days why do they say silly things like God will need people to populate the earth in their earthly millennium rapture belief?

The oneness doctrine has God the Father kicked out of Heaven. Where does it stop? When they preach or teach as if they have everything all figured out, run! The job title God is already taken but many have yet to learn that. There is so much heresy being taught.

The error was that men did not step up thus a woman (Deborah) Judges 4:9 “the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman."

If all the heresy/false teaching among the male leadership continues the Lord may use a woman/women to call them on it. There will always be someone or something willing to cry out even the stones.

Luke 19:39 some of the Pharisees wanted Jesus to rebuke his disciples. But in verse 40 Jesus replied “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Matthew 7:22-24
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Be it Jezebel or Lucifer/satan both are the wrong spirit.

Our only hope is getting back to the basics which is Jesus Christ, his words, the Holy Spirit, and remembering that God our heavenly father is to be loved and feared.

Jesus said in Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

I don’t see why any woman would want to be in Church leadership. It is more rewarding to do as Jesus Christ outside the comfort of 4 walls.

 

[Ivy]

I'll confess I haven't read this whole thread, only this fifth page.

I highly suggest the film, "A Man Called Peter," about Peter Marshal. There are several of his sermons delivered inspiringly and eloquently in the movie. One of the sermons, delivered by the actress that plays his wife, says that women seeking equality with men are seeking a step DOWN from where God has placed them.

I've taught in the church, many times past. I was asked to by both men and women. One time, in a particularly religious area, where there are a lot of spiritual strongholds and superstitions, I spoke before my husband sang, and the TALK that went on afterward...how my husband should not have "allowed" me to speak....And you know what? It didn't hurt me one bit because I considered the source, and I grieved for the darkened state of people's understanding. It doesn't matter what people think, and it shouldn't shake us, if we are full-faced before the Lord, striving to live in obedience to His Spirit; let them say and think what they will. We each have God to answer to.

Cultures change, come and go, and influence people greatly, tragically sometimes, within them. Back when Paul was saying that women should be silent in church - did you know that Jewish women sat in an overlooking balcony, and when the Torah was being read, they would routinely call down to their husbands, telling them anything from their viewpoints on what was being read, to asking them to pick things up from the market on the way home?! Realizing this, do you wonder WHY Paul wanted them to be silent? They brought these bad habits into the home, Christian meetings. Paul was trying to bring order from chaos - he had not only the Jewish women, and their habits to deal with - but the GREEK women, sheesh! They had been running amuck, promiscuous and irresponsible mothers - which is why Paul said to them, "Listen to your OWN husbands...stay quiet at home and take care of your children."

Often, I find women in leadership arrogant. It is the arrogance I personally have a problem with. Because of the misconceptions about "equality," some women teach from an attitude of having something to prove. But no one can deny true humility, and whether a person is male or female as a teacher, and displays true humility, listening ears will benefit.

 

[Ret]

Often, I find women in leadership arrogant. It is the arrogance I personally have a problem with. Because of the misconceptions about "equality," some women teach from an attitude of having something to prove. But no one can deny true humility, and whether a person is male or female as a teacher, and displays true humility, listening ears will benefit.

Jesus words....from Matt 23:
8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
11 " But the greatest among you shall be your servant. NASU

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

http://www.intervarsity.org/mx/item/4175/download/

Anyone want to take a stab at this?

The issue has pretty much been resolved for me, but I found this a few minutes ago and I'm kind of curious as to what refutations others on this forum will have to offer...