Can you be saved and reject the Trinity?

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

NPX,

I still believe in Hypostatic Union, Jesus having two natures…fully human and fully man.

Other than being contradictory, the other problem I have with that is found in Phil 2:

"6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

If Jesus "emptied himself," how could he be "fully" God?

[quote:7ad5b]It does not confuse me and it makes perfect sense to me, also consider that just because it does not make sense to humans does not mean it is not so.

I am not confused by the Hypostatic Union and it does make sense, I just find it is lacking as a explanation of the nature of Christ.[/quote:7ad5b]

Interesting points but look at Colossians 2:9

Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:9 (AMP)
9For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

Look at the following link for an explanation of Jesus:
http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_know.htm

(in your explanation that would be the Father personality and the Human personality…both of which being in the same Jesus…of course I reject that notion as do you.)

But if Jesus is fully God and fully man, then you have the same dilemma, only with the Son. The temptation is to say that either the Son was speaking or his humanity was speaking, and once again Jesus has dissociative identity disorder.

See that is just it…The Son was speaking…the Son was praying to the Father.

 

[JM]

Quote: :-D

The Son of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father's glory, of one substance and equal with him who made the world, who upholdeth and governeth all things he hath made, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her: and the power of the Most High overshadowing her; and so was made of a woman of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.
( John 1:14; Galatians 4;4; Romans 8:3; Hebrews 2:14, 16, 17; Hebrews 4:15; Matthew 1:22, 23; Luke 1:27, 31, 35; Romans 9:5; 1 Timothy 2:5 )

The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure, having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth, he might be throughly furnished to execute the office of mediator and surety; which office he took not upon himself, but was thereunto called by his Father; who also put all power and judgement in his hand, and gave him commandment to execute the same.
( Psalms 45:7; Acts 10:38; John 3:34; Colossians 2:3; Colossians 1:19; Hebrews 7:26; John 1:14; Hebrews 7:22; Hebrews 5:5; John 5:22, 27; Matthew 28:18; Acts 2:36 )

 

[Rose of Sharon]

Since there has been a great deal of discussion in the Theology part of the Christian forums I thought I would ask this question:

Can you be saved and reject the Trinity?

I believe that if you reject the Trinity then you are indeed not saved, and cannot be saved. One is saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ was the Messiah?
Jesus was the “word became flesh,†right?

Well if you don’t believe any of the above then how can you say you believe in Jesus Christ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'am saved and I reject the trinity . I'am saved by grace and by faith in Jesus Christ because GOD sent his only son to die so that I might be saved. I beleive that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
There is ONE God, nowhere in the word says a trinity, nor a threefold gospel. The Jews did not beleive in it nor did the Apostles. They taught ONE God. Constantine and his council brought in the trinity beleif.
I do not deny the father, the son, nor the Holyghost. They are titles of God, not a trinity. God manifests HIMSELF in many differnt ways, but he does NOT manifest HIMSELF as other "divinities".
Jesus was NOT the word, GOD was and is the word. GOD became flesh ( John 1:14) and that was Jesus Christ in the FORM of God.

I believe in Jesus Christ. He is the son of God. The only "begotten"son of God. But when we speak of Jesus, it is in the humanity sense, not divine. Jesus was not and is not "another" divine person in the godhead. Jesus is litterly God. There are not two divinitys in God and Jesus. They are one in the same.

See passages Phillippians 2: 6-11 where Paul is speaking of Jesus' humanity and God the spirit's exaltation of the MAN Christ Jesus.

verse 6; Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

( who being in the form of God. Jesus was the " form", the manifestation of God. So, that stands to reason that since Jesus was the actual form of God, then he was and is God HIMSELF.)

verse 7; But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

( Jesus took upon the form of a servant ( humanity)

verse 8; And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

( plain as day, Jesus being found in fashion as a man)
This goes into the fact that Jesus , a man, died on the cross , but the spirit within did not as the spirit of God cannot die.

verse 9; Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

( GOD exalted the MAN Jesus.)


God bless
[/u]

 

[Free]

RoS,

God manifests HIMSELF in many differnt ways, but he does NOT manifest HIMSELF as other "divinities".

So you don't believe then that the Holy Spirit or Jesus are God.

Jesus was NOT the word, GOD was and is the word. GOD became flesh ( John 1:14) and that was Jesus Christ in the FORM of God.

The Word was the Son who became Jesus as God in the flesh.

Jesus was not and is not "another" divine person in the godhead. Jesus is litterly God. There are not two divinitys in God and Jesus.

And yet Jesus himself said he would send "another" (John 14:16). Either you are wrong or Jesus is wrong.

But when we speak of Jesus, it is in the humanity sense, not divine...Jesus is litterly God.

And here is the Jesus with dissociative identity disorder. Please tell me RoS, if we speak of Jesus in the "humanity sense," how is it that you can say he is lilterally God? You are essentially saying that his humanity is God.

 

[Eve777]

Sorry, I just read this. I have been away from the computer due to illness.


Jesus was both God and man. Although this union is sometimes referred to as God-man, this term may be misleading, for it may lead some people to think of Him as a demigod. On the other hand, it is equally incorrect to refer to Him as a anointed man. Although quantitatively God cannot be confined to a body, qualitatively he could reside in a body. Neither was Jesus a part-human, but he was man in the full sense. He was fully God and fully man. He possessed both the nature of God and the nature of man. He was aware that He was He was God and that He was man. He could and did speak and act as a man, and he could and did speak and act as God. As a man, he did not know the day or hour when the Son would come in power and glory (Mark 13:22); as God he forgave sins. Both His humanity and deity, although fused into His one being, remained distinct within His one personality. Admittedly, the Incarnation is a mystery beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

Did Jesus pray to Himself ? No, not when we understand that Jesus was both God and man. In His deity Jesus did not pray, for God does not need to pray to anyone. As a man, Jesus prayed to God, not to his humanity (7). He did not pray to Himself as humanity, but to the one true God, to the same God who dwelled in His humanity and who also inhabits the universe. No further explanation is given, and none is needed. Does Jesus pray now since his exaltation ? The answer is no. He prayed in the days of His flesh (Hebrews 5:7). The work of the mediation was finished through His death on the cross at Calvary (Hebrews 9:14-15). There is no more sacrifice for sins, for once and for all time His blood was shed for the remission of sins (Hebrews 10:12). Unlike the Old Testament priests, he does not continually offer sacrifices for sins. There is no more offering, but there remains remission of sins for those who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:18, Acts 2:38). His present role as intercessor consists not only of daily prayers but the application of the benefit of the cross to our lives (Romans 8:34; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:1-2).


he above was taken from "The Pentacost Chronicle" which describes what I beleive on this better than I can.

 

[evanman]

The eternal Word of God became a human being. He was Wholly God, even though he did not live as Almighty, Omni-present and Omniscient. He lived as a completely human being.

Not Two separate natures that were separate from each other, so that one day jesus would be human, and the next day would be God! He was always God and Always human! Both at the same time!

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus was the embodiment of Deity in human form!

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Rose of Sharon,

There is ONE God, nowhere in the word says a trinity, nor a threefold gospel. The Jews did not beleive in it nor did the Apostles. They taught ONE God. Constantine and his council brought in the trinity beleif.

There is one God; the Trinity does not deny that. The concept known as the Trinity is found is scripture; the word itself is not in the Bible because such a word did not exist when it was written.

I do not deny the father, the son, nor the Holyghost. They are titles of God, not a trinity. God manifests HIMSELF in many differnt ways, but he does NOT manifest HIMSELF as other "divinities".

Interesting. Look at this:
Refer back what I posted in the "No pre-existant Jesus:â€Â
The plurality of God in the Old and New Testament

Once you have read that then please explain to me how words like "us" and "our" could be referring to a God that is not three persons in one but one God with only one person.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

In order to better discuss the topic I put up I thought it is about time I define what The Trinity is (I know this would have been nice at the beginning of the topic but hay better late then never)

Below is from carm.org:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Trinity

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. (See also, "Another Look at the Trinity")

Jesus, the Son, is one person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.

There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses who will be saved (Eph. 1:4); the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them, (Eph. 1:13).

A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit is a force (Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father, became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son (where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (Oneness theology). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).

The word "person" is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

The chart below should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture. The list is not exhaustive, only illustrative.

The first step is to establish the biblical doctrine that there is only one God. Then, you find that each of the persons is called God, each creates, each was involved in Jesus' resurrection, each indwells, etc. Therefore, God is one, but the one God is in three simultaneous persons. Please note that the idea of a composite unity is not a foreign concept to the Bible; after all, man and wife become are said to be one flesh. The idea of a composite unity of persons is spoken of by God in Genesis (Gen. 2:24).

There is only one God

The first step is to establish how many Gods exist: one! Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9

• "I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

• “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).

• "I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God, (Isaiah 55:5).

The Trinity

[For Chart click on link and scroll down till you see it… Chart link click me]


Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Source

--Please note that the scripture links within the web page from carm.org have been changed to link to BibleGateway.com so I can show you what the KJV and AMP versions say.--

 

[spiritfilled7]

Amen. There is only one God. The trinity is Father,son and Holy Ghost. They each play the role in there role.

 

[paxigoth7]

'All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved'

 

[Blazin Bones]

Meaning what exactly Pax?

 

[anonymous_christian02]

Belief in the trinity is essential for salvation because jesus is the only way to salvation and jesus is God and if jesus is God then that means God is two beings and then the holy spirit is the part of God that lives in our hearts and guides us every day of our lives

 

[Eve777]

that means God is two beings

No, I have to disagree. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. Not a seperate being. He WAS God. God is spirit. To forgive our sins, he needed a sinless sacrifice but in human form. Since God is the only one that cannot sin, he chose to reporduce himself in the form of a human man. Although he was fully man, he was also God and did not sin while in the flesh although he was tempted as any man.


Seen of Angels–1 Timothy 3:16.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory


God was---manifest in the flesh

God was---seen of angels

God did----preached unto the Gentiles

God was---believed on in the world

God was--received up into Glory

It says God was....not Jesus, although we know these things are about Jesus....who was God....

Only one......

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

that means God is two beings

No, I have to disagree. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. Not a seperate being. He WAS God. God is spirit. To forgive our sins, he needed a sinless sacrifice but in human form. Since God is the only one that cannot sin, he chose to reporduce himself in the form of a human man. Although he was fully man, he was also God and did not sin while in the flesh although he was tempted as any man.


Seen of Angels–1 Timothy 3:16.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory


God was---manifest in the flesh

God was---seen of angels

God did----preached unto the Gentiles

God was---believed on in the world

God was--received up into Glory

It says God was....not Jesus, although we know these things are about Jesus....who was God....

Only one......

I have to disagree with you. The Bible clearly speaks of The plurality of God in the Old and New Testament and the concept of the Trinity. There is only one God but composed of The Father, Son, and The Holy Spirit.

 

[DM]

Back to . . .

Hi all.

Back to . . . the beginning of this discussion regarding whether or not salvation hangs on this issue.

Why is it, that the doctrine of whether or not God is a Trinity is singled out amongst such a wide range of differing doctrinal positions?

For example: Take classic dispensationalism vs. preterism. Or Calvanism vs. Armenianism [sp?]. Or whether or not tongues are still being exercised. etc.

You'll often note, that as a "general" rule within Christianity (certainly there are groups to which this wouldn't apply), such topics are not divisive to the point where one would conclude whether or not someone's sins are forgiven . . . and thus "saved". I think this is good. I don't see where we should be dividing over things that are profoundly deep questions of the mind, versus our loving one another / our behavior and faith in Christ.

And yet here we are, (again . . . the forum topics surrounding the Trinity are numerous just on this one site), with various interpretations of the text.

Many have made their opinions known . . . and many believe them to be absolutely true. But where does the idea that salvation hangs on this issue versus any other issue come from?

If salvation comes from believing in the doctrine of the Trinity, does that means we should ignore Scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:23,24? What's the point?

Looking forward to further discussion on the issue, my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Peace and JOY in Him.
David

 

[Henry]

God is a trinity that is just the way it is. To deny the very nature of God is to deny God, himself.

Oneness teachings are not true to the nature of God as we are taught in the bible, to place you faith in the Oneness god is as good as placing your faith in the mormon god. Both are equally untrue.

We are not saved by believing the trinity, but we are saved by faith in the one and true God who is a trinity.

 

[DM]

We are not saved by believing the trinity, but we are saved by faith in the one and true God who is a trinity.

But what if one didn't "know" that about God yet? That is to say . . . let's pretend you have a brand new believer who never heard of the doctrine of the Trinity. This believer only heard that God loves him, and that because of this love, God sent His only Son to die in his place. And let's also say that this message of good news is genuinely believed by this person, and in turn this person is willing to turn away from sin . . . is this sufficient for his salvation?

Peace in Him,
David

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

We are not saved by believing the trinity, but we are saved by faith in the one and true God who is a trinity.

But what if one didn't "know" that about God yet? That is to say . . . let's pretend you have a brand new believer who never heard of the doctrine of the Trinity. This believer only heard that God loves him, and that because of this love, God sent His only Son to die in his place. And let's also say that this message of good news is genuinely believed by this person, and in turn this person is willing to turn away from sin . . . is this sufficient for his salvation?

Peace in Him,
David

Good points. My question was intended for those who have heard about the Trinity and come to understand it but then still reject it. Sorry if my question did not imply that…perhaps I should go by advice I have given to others…don’t assume anything.

I believe that a person who genuinely accepts Christ into their heart and turns their lives over to Him then is saved. Now if someone learns about the Trinity concept and rejects it then I wonder how one can genuinely turn themselves over to the Lord if they reject the very nature of God. One is saved by the “right†Christ, not the Christ of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons are Oneness….they are saved by the Christ of the Bible and the Bible speaks of a God who is a Trinity.

 

[DM]

My question was intended for those who have heard about the Trinity and come to understand it but then still reject it.

Thanks for that clarification Nocturnal.

According to my hypothetical then, the genuine believer "at first", who then comes to a special insight or knowledge about God (namely that He's a Trinity) - must then believe it, or lose his salvation?

I would be more inclined to concern if there were a passage in the New Testament where Paul or Peter or somebody else had said something like, "Now brothers, I don't want you to be ignorant . . . God is a triune being. Three persons that make up the one true God. It's REALLY important that you get this, otherwise your faith is futile."

Something that direct would get my attention.

It's not that I'm suggesting that God is absolutely "not" a Trinity. But to be fair . . . a verse like the following certainly causes me to scratch my head and wonder:

John 7:17 (Jesus speaking) "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

Is being honest about one's own doubt about the doctrine of the Trinity a sign of "bad fruit" necessarily? And therefore, should any of my brothers or sisters in Christ decide in their hearts that I'm not saved? I often hear/read the very point which you made Nocturnal. That to deny the Trinity is to deny "the very Nature of God". What if, genuinely, "the very Nature of God" - is simply too profound to understand with the mind?

I believe that Jesus is God's Son. I believe that he is the only way to God. I believe that he will judge the living and the dead. I believe that apart from him, there is no salvation.

As a last point for this post, what are your thoughts regarding the sense that the Father is still Jesus' God - even after the resurrection? Also that Jesus ends up with a "new name":

Revelation 3:12 "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name."

Thanks Nocturnal - and others . . . good discussion! And important too.

Peace and JOY in Him,
David

 

[Free]

So, what if someone gets saved at a Franklin Graham crusade and, not knowing any better, begins attending a Oneness church. Here they are taught Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead and that the Trinity is false. Is this person still saved?