[_ Old Earth _] Carbon dating in respect to Creation/ Darwinian Evolution

[felix]

barb, while i like st.agustine but we arent catholics and the apochrya isnt scripture and uh sda is a cult and and when the word yom has a number in front of it. it can only be a unit of 24 hr measurment

for in six long ages (per barb) god made the hevens and the earth. and on the seventh age he rested.

in context that talks about the week and the seventh day being the sabbath. so if that is age then when did the first sabbath end?

Jason, it's not six long ages. It's still 6 days. The point is, a day has nothing to do with sun but morning and evening. Also, morning and evening has nothing to do with sun either but light and darkness. Hence, a day is defined by God w.r.t light and darkness and not the sun because He created sun only on the 4th day and the first 3 days are calculated without the sun. The ruling power of the sun over the day was given by God only after the 4th day. So, the 1st 3 days are not 24 hrs. However, when the sun began to rule from the 5th day, it's 24 hrs (or) whatever hours it takes for earth to rotate itself.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, it's not six long ages. It's still 6 days. The point is, a day has nothing to do with sun but morning and evening. Also, morning and evening has nothing to do with sun either but light and darkness. Hence, a day is defined by God w.r.t light and darkness and not the sun because He created sun only on the 4th day and the first 3 days are calculated without the sun. The ruling power of the sun over the day was given by God only after the 4th day. So, the 1st 3 days are not 24 hrs. However, when the sun began to rule from the 5th day, it's 24 hrs (or) whatever hours it takes for earth to rotate itself.

i know what the jewish concept of day is the jews of today start all religion days at 6pm not at midnight and if god wanted to convoy the word day he would have to use what we do understand and also if it was "new " word then the lord would have told them what it was. remember moses wasnt ignorant and was a learned man.

barb if the flood isnt global then therefor the jugment of man cant be global either and peter makes that clear. he compares the jugment of flood to the pending judgement.

 

[jasoncran]

and God delinated what the 24 yr period was not the sun, did you not think that he set the earth(not the sun) to rotate at its speed the sun doesnt measure the time. we measure the time by our position to the sun.

the are solar days and solar hours these are used by nasa.

 

[felix]

No. It has never been orthodoxy in Judaism to believe the world is 6000 or so years old.

The Torah gives me exact number of years to calculate and you are telling me it is not orthodoxy? Paul in Acts gives some calculations which can be done only by manual calculations. With Torah giving you exact number of years to calculate as ~6000, how can you say it is not orthodoxy in Judaism. I am not sure of the Judaism you are speaking about where people does not know or believe the Torah.

If you're a YE creationist, you do. Until the SDA brought YE to evangelicals, most creationists were OE. It was the form of creationism presented at the Scopes trial, for example.

I am not a old earth creationists either. I believe God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning (which is much older). The rest of all creation including the light, stars, oceans, plants, animals etc are just ~6000 years ago. There is a big difference.

Nope.

Never mind.. it doesn't prove anything. At some point, people did thought the earth was flat and someone must come and tell they were wrong.

For one thing, the corners you think the Earth has. Where are these corners?

Barbarian smiles:
That would be odd, considering that men were building fires, building shelters, and drawing very good art on cave walls long before that.

A corner stone is not literal stone. It's the first structure in the part of building.

(Job 26:7b) He hangs the earth on nothing.

The author of scriptures have well understanding of what shape earth was and where earth was.

Actually, we find symbolic information carved on material considerably older, at least tens of thousands of years old. We no longer know what they mean, but they were added over time to the objects, in some sort of code.

So, that, too was gradual in appearance.

Actually, the evidence shows that there were many languages long before 4000 B.C.

So, name the language then and the evidence of the oldest inscription found.

No evidence a global flood, and scripture doesn't say there was one.

Wow!
(Gen 7:19) And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

The calibration of C-14:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/varve.html

Notice dendrochronology fits very nicely in the curve.

That's not how it's done. Sorry about that.

Dendrochronology requires a reference point of known date of a timber sample from the same area to link the lifetime. The only method used for such is radiocarbon and with Geiger-Müller counter having many doubts and you declined to comment on the link I provided, I can only infer radiometric dates are nothing but a big lie to prove anything even nonsense except God.

 

[Roof]

barb, while i like st.agustine but we arent catholics and the apochrya isnt scripture and uh sda is a cult and and when the word yom has a number in front of it. it can only be a unit of 24 hr measurment

for in six long ages (per barb) god made the hevens and the earth. and on the seventh age he rested.

in context that talks about the week and the seventh day being the sabbath. so if that is age then when did the first sabbath end?

St. Agustine predates the Seventh Day Adventists, over a thousand years? (sorry I am short on time so I cant look up the proper years)

 

[jasoncran]

St. Agustine predates the Seventh Day Adventists, over a thousand years? (sorry I am short on time so I cant look up the proper years)

i understand that.

augustine uses as story of creation from the apochrypa. i am not catholic nor orthodox so that idea is moot.

its an athiest construct to say that yec originated with eg white(which it didnt).

 

[Barbarian]

i understand that.

augustine uses as story of creation from the apochrypa. i am not catholic nor orthodox so that idea is moot.

That was back in the day when the Bible was still unabridged. That was the only Bible available.

Its an athiest construct to say that yec originated with eg white(which it didnt).

White came up with the idea. The real apostle to the evangelicals was George McCready Price, an Adventist missionary.

Price's ideas were borrowed again in the early 1960s by Henry M. Morris and John Whitcomb in their book The Genesis Flood, a work that skeptic Martin Gardner calls "the most significant attack on evolution...since the Scopes trial". Morris, in his 1984 book History of Modern Creationism, spoke glowingly of Price's logic and writing style, and referred to reading The New Geology as "a life-changing experience for me".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_McCready_Price

Morris, as you might know, later founded the Institute for Creation Research, the largest evangelical YEC organization.

 

[felix]

That was back in the day when the Bible was still unabridged. That was the only Bible available.

Do you know what Septuagint LXXE is?

Bible was never abridged ever, esp, the old testament.

 

[jasoncran]

That was back in the day when the Bible was still unabridged. That was the only Bible available.



White came up with the idea. The real apostle to the evangelicals was George McCready Price, an Adventist missionary.

Price's ideas were borrowed again in the early 1960s by Henry M. Morris and John Whitcomb in their book The Genesis Flood, a work that skeptic Martin Gardner calls "the most significant attack on evolution...since the Scopes trial". Morris, in his 1984 book History of Modern Creationism, spoke glowingly of Price's logic and writing style, and referred to reading The New Geology as "a life-changing experience for me".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_McCready_Price

Morris, as you might know, later founded the Institute for Creation Research, the largest evangelical YEC organization.

I HAVE a tanakh that is way bigger then any christian bible with commentaries and theres NO JEWISH APOPHCRYA IN IT.

AND ITS from the masoretic text and is my deceased grandmothers. and no i dont care for links from wikipedia as they are rather biased.

in fact i will verify that from the creationist forum i am on

 

[Rhea]

Barbarian: No evidence a global flood, and scripture doesn't say there was one.

Felix: Wow!
(Gen 7:19) And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

So you're thinking 33 THOUSAND feet of water over the whole planet? That fell in 40 days? (comes to what, about 34 feet per hour or 6 inches per minute of rainfall? Bet that was tough on the buoyancy of the ark!)

So, where are you thinking it went?

 

[abrown9]

So you're thinking 33 THOUSAND feet of water over the whole planet? That fell in 40 days? (comes to what, about 34 feet per hour or 6 inches per minute of rainfall? Bet that was tough on the buoyancy of the ark!)

So, where are you thinking it went?

The dinosaurs drank it, resulting in universal hyponatremia leading to massive extinction. Case closed.

 

[jasoncran]

watch it.2

first off rhea and abrown while i dont expect you to understand nor believe the verse that speaks this in 2 peter directly relates to the flood and speaks of a new heaven and new earth and speaks of the noahide flood.

if the flood is mini then therefore in context the return of christ can only affect wherever region noahs flood lived in.

all gentiles and jews that live outside that region need NOT concern themselves with christ. that isnt what christ came to do per the te and they have to adress that sufficiently

the bible always tells you how to intepret itself or via the holy spirit

the acoplytic symbols are found in consisten from genesis to the last book. the same with typologies.

 

[Barbarian]

Do you know what Septuagint LXXE is?

A Jewish compilation of books, considered by several factions to be canonical.

Bible was never abridged ever, esp, the old testament.

Some Protestant groups removed several books considered to be canonical. And some wanted to go further. Luther lobbied for removal of James, because, as he said, it contradicted his new doctrine of sola fide.

 

[reba]

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

There was more than rain for Noah's flood.

Gen 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

 

[theLords]

A Jewish compilation of books, considered by several factions to be canonical.

Some Protestant groups removed several books considered to be canonical. And some wanted to go further. Luther lobbied for removal of James, because, as he said, it contradicted his new doctrine of sola fide.

Those were the Protestants, not the Jews. The Jews canonized their Scripture. We simply accepted their canonization and labeled it the OT (with a few organizational details remaining different). The Holy Spirit didn't allow Luther to overstep his bounds and mess with the NT.

 

[theLords]

So you're thinking 33 THOUSAND feet of water over the whole planet? That fell in 40 days? (comes to what, about 34 feet per hour or 6 inches per minute of rainfall? Bet that was tough on the buoyancy of the ark!)

So, where are you thinking it went?

Genesis 7:16 (NKJV)
So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.

God, supernaturally, shuts the door to the ark. He didn't abandon them after that.

 

[Barbarian]

The Torah gives me exact number of years to calculate

Some Jewish scholars think so, but most don't. That's never been the consensus among them.

And you are telling me it is not orthodoxy?

Yes, that's true.

Barbarian observes:
If you're a YE creationist, you do. Until the SDA brought YE to evangelicals, most creationists were OE. It was the form of creationism presented at the Scopes trial, for example.

I am not a old earth creationists either. I believe God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning (which is much older). The rest of all creation including the light, stars, oceans, plants, animals etc are just ~6000 years ago. There is a big difference.

That's YE creationism. Not all YE creationists think God also poofed heaven into existence 6000 years ago.

Never mind.. it doesn't prove anything. At some point, people did thought the earth was flat and someone must come and tell they were wrong.

Specifically, scripture speaks of a flat earth, with a solid dome over it, with windows to let in the rain. Like much of scripture, that is metaphorical, not intended to be a science text.

Barbarian asks:
For one thing, the corners you think the Earth has. Where are these corners?

(no answer)

Barbarian smiles:
That would be odd, considering that men were building fires, building shelters, and drawing very good art on cave walls long before that.

A corner stone is not literal stone. It's the first structure in the part of building

.

So now, it's not literal. Surprises on surprises.

(Job 26:7b) He hangs the earth on nothing.

No foundation, after all. Literalism is full of surprises.

The author of scriptures have well understanding of what shape earth was and where earth was.

Apparently, He didn't think it was important enough to inspire the people who passed on the important message. As the first Christians realized, Genesis wasn't literal, but the "firmament" was conceived long before as a domed roof.

Barbarian observes:
Actually, we find symbolic information carved on material considerably older, at least tens of thousands of years old. We no longer know what they mean, but they were added over time to the objects, in some sort of code.

So, that, too was gradual in appearance.

Actually, the evidence shows that there were many languages long before 4000 B.C.

So, name the language then and the evidence of the oldest inscription found.

Linguists call one of them Proto IndoEuropean. And earlier one may be Nostratic, which has enough surviving words that sentences can be written in it.

The oldest vinca script is about 9,000 years old. And the oldest lunar calendar is about 34,000 years old, the work of our own species, Cro-magnons.
http://lunarscience.nasa.gov/articles/oldest-lunar-calendars

Barbarian observes:
No evidence a global flood, and scripture doesn't say there was one.

Wow!

Yep. It's a common misconception. Here's one example of the way people are fooled:

(Gen 7:19) And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

In fact, the "earth" was actually "eretz", meaning land. It means for example, "the territory of Israel", "my land", or "hereabouts." So it doesn't mean the whole world.

Barbarian observes:
The calibration of C-14:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/varve.html

Notice dendrochronology fits very nicely in the curve.

(stuff about Geiger counters)
That's not how it's done. Sorry about that.

Dendrochronology requires a reference point of known date of a timber sample from the same area to link the lifetime.

Yep. That's how they do it.

The only method used for such is radiocarbon

Nope.

and with Geiger-Müller counter having many doubts and you declined to comment on the link I provided

I'd be pleased to hear what you think the best argument on that site is. If you think it's good. Put it out for us to see.

I can only infer radiometric dates are nothing but a big lie to prove anything even nonsense except God.

Or you could go with the evidence. That would lead you to the opposite conclusion.

 

[jasoncran]

barb why then did god promise noah not judge that said land by flood? and yet in those areas we have floods?

and also what is this new heavan and earth. and the earth is suspended on what? it orbits what?

the cross. let me ask you this. to some that didnt occur? what version of the bible or thiest do you arbitraily choose to believe as any doc will concur that all men will die and none come back to life.

evidence?

 

[jasoncran]

A Jewish compilation of books, considered by several factions to be canonical.



Some Protestant groups removed several books considered to be canonical. And some wanted to go further. Luther lobbied for removal of James, because, as he said, it contradicted his new doctrine of sola fide.

well i want bash the rcc here nor derail what is canon. but since you brought this up.

the idea of purgatory isnt even original to the the rcc or orthodox and also the it predates christ its called the mourners kaddish.

it involves the prayers of the living jews to raise so to speak the dead whether righteous or a sinner (even the likes of hitler) to the sheol level of abraham

that negates all that christ did. theres a reason why many a protestant dont do that and you forget the bible we protestants have comes from the vulgate not the version agustine used.

if you are going to argue eretz can only mean land then also the judgment per peter isnt so "grand" either.

jesus alludes to that judgement of all the earth not some local event

 

[Barbarian]

barb why then did god promise noah not judge that said land by flood? and yet in those areas we have floods?

Well, that's not what he promised. He said he wouldn't send a flood to kill all the people in that land again. So far, He's kept that promise. He never said he'd never let a flood happen.

and also what is this new heavan and earth. and the earth is suspended on what? it orbits what?

It's not actually suspended. That's the best guess the writer could make, and obviously God did not make the actual mechanism part of His revelation.

The cross. let me ask you this. to some that didnt occur?

It's pretty clear that the Crucifixion is a historical narrative.