Catholic Bible Study

[JM]

Just wanted to start a thread for the Catholic brothers and sisters on this forum, I'd like to lurk in while you study, hoping this gets you going. Would anyone like to lead?

 

[sehad]

I am not Catholic but I do have a good friend that is. I just have some questions.

1) Why do Catholic's pray to Mary when Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through him?

2) Why do Catholic's confess sins to a priest when only Jesus or GOD has the ability to forgive sin?

I'm not bashing the Catholic faith, I just don't understand all of it.

3) In the story the in Luke 16, after the rich man died he lifted up his eyes from hell suggesting that when he died he went straight to hell and Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom (in Heaven is the assumption) when he died. Therefore, is Purgatory biblical?

Please do not get me wrong, I am not bashing and I am not setting this up to bash Catholics. If you wish to reply in a PM to me please do to avoid this. Thanks.

 

[Rick W]

I'm not bashing the Catholic faith...

Please do not get me wrong, I am not bashing and I am not setting this up to bash Catholics.

:smt023

That will serve as an underlying attribute of this thread.

 

[thessalonian]

I am not Catholic but I do have a good friend that is. I just have some questions.

No offense taken at all for respectful legitimate questions Sehad. Thank you for them.

1) Why do Catholic's pray to Mary when Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through him?

It is quite true that noone comes to Christ, except by the grace of God. We ask for this grace ourselves to grow in the grace of Christ. We also ask others for their prayers that our faith might be deepened and we may be more loving and persevering in hope of the resurrection. Paul tells us in 1 Tim 2:1-4 that asking the intercession of others is a good thing. This is the context in which we pray to Mary. Pray in one definition means ask. We ask Mary (and other saints in heaven) to pray for us before the throne of God in heaven. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, now and at the hour of our death amen.". Now I am sure your concern is that we pray as a form of worship. Not the case. Mary is the creature. Yet we believe that Jesus honors her prayers in a special way, as his own command says "honor your father and mother". We believe that those in heaven are alive in Christ ("God is not the God of the dead but of the living") and therefore they can still intercede for us. Rev 5 indicates they are involved in some way in the prayer that goes on on earth and is raised up. Their prayers (represented by incense) is mixed with the prayers of those on earth. And we believe we can ask for those prayers. The grace that we receive comes from God and Mary can do nothing for us on her own

2) Why do Catholic's confess sins to a priest when only Jesus or GOD has the ability to forgive sin?

Well first of all I would direct you to John 20.
John 20

[19]
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
[20] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
[21] Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
[24]

Note here that "he breathed on them". There is one other place in scripture where God breathes on man. It is in genesis where he gives Adam life, both spiritual and physical. Here he is restoring spiritual life. Note also that he says "receive the Holy Spirit". He is conferring a power of the Holy Spirit on them. When the Apostles cured the sick and the lame for instance in Acts, was it they or God doing it. Well actually it was God through the power of the Holy Spirit. This understanding is key to your question. Note that the forgiveness here is forgiven or retained BY GOD when it is forgiven or retained by those given this power. God works through his creation. He works through us to his glory:

Eph 3
[20] Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen

Paul tells us that his work is not of his own but "Christ lives in me". The point in all of this is that when I am in the confessional, it in no way contradicts Christ having the power to forgive sins. The priest is the instrument through which he does it and when I confess and the priest gives me absolution (which acknowledges the power of Christ to forgive sins) I know that they are truly forgiven by God. I have asked forgiveness the way that he requested that we do in John 20 above. The means through which he set up.

One other interesting passage is:

Matt 9
[8] When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men. What was the authority?

This authority spoken of is given to MEN. Not just Jesus who excercised it. Let's look at what this authority is:

[5] For which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Rise and walk'?
[6] But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- he then said to the paralytic -- "Rise, take up your bed and go home."
[7] And he rose and went home.

The forgiveness of sins. In the same passage in Mark they say in this very episode as you do "only God can forgive sins". He does it through men.

3) In the story the in Luke 16, after the rich man died he lifted up his eyes from hell suggesting that when he died he went straight to hell and Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom (in Heaven is the assumption) when he died. Therefore, is Purgatory biblical?

Well first of all your view is one of not understanding Catholicism which does not say all go to purgatory. Therefore it is no conflict if one were in purgatory and one went straight to heaven. I've been through a whole debate on the idea of imputed righteousness and the need for sanctification before heaven and how if the sanctification is not completed on earth (which it can be) it must be completed before heaven is entered. This is by the grace of God. Some call it the fire of God's love which we come to know in it's perfection (for we shall see him as he really is). We think the passage below indicates the distinction I make:

1 Cor 3
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

One man is ready for his reward. The other must go through some sort of a purging by fire. The fire of God's love. We are told in revelations, "Nothing unclean shall enter" and so all sin and unrighteousness must be completely sanctified from us before heaven.

I will question whether "the bosom of abraham" was heaven since we are told that Chirst is the first fruits. We are told that after Christ's death the saints of old were released from the tombs in Matt 27. Noone was able to enter heaven before this time as I understand. Before mankinds sins were truly atoned for. Both men of the Old and men of the New Testament. Christ's sacrifice redeemed them all and so they could not enter heaven before his atonement.

I hope this helps you understand better.

Blessings

 

[sehad]

No offense taken at all for respectful legitimate questions Sehad. Thank you for them.

I'm here to learn about different religions, however I may not agree with them. I am not Catholic, but there are several different things about the Catholic religion that appeal to me. I have learned that the best way to learn about something is to question why, not point out why you think it is wrong. I will, however, share my interpretation of the scriptures that you offer in an effort to better understand them myself.

It is quite true that noone comes to Christ, except by the grace of God. We ask for this grace ourselves to grow in the grace of Christ. We also ask others for their prayers that our faith might be deepened and we may be more loving and persevering in hope of the resurrection. Paul tells us in 1 Tim 2:1-4 that asking the intercession of others is a good thing. This is the context in which we pray to Mary. Pray in one definition means ask. We ask Mary (and other saints in heaven) to pray for us before the throne of God in heaven. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, now and at the hour of our death amen.". Now I am sure your concern is that we pray as a form of worship. Not the case. Mary is the creature. Yet we believe that Jesus honors her prayers in a special way, as his own command says "honor your father and mother". We believe that those in heaven are alive in Christ ("God is not the God of the dead but of the living") and therefore they can still intercede for us. Rev 5 indicates they are involved in some way in the prayer that goes on on earth and is raised up. Their prayers (represented by incense) is mixed with the prayers of those on earth. And we believe we can ask for those prayers. The grace that we receive comes from God and Mary can do nothing for us on her own

You say that you believe that Jesus honors the prayer(asking) of his mother. I believe you are right. It is evident when Jesus turned the water to wine. Jesus was not ready but he did what his mother asked. But what about this: Mary, the mother of Jesus, was in the upper room and was filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost suggesting that she was not above the others. In other words, what was expected of the others was expected of her also. Also, Matthew 22:28 suggests that we will not be known in heaven as we are on Earth and in Revelation 5 it suggests that the elders(whomever they might be) simply are the keepers of the prayers of the saints, not necessarily add on to the prayers of the saints. Another point, if this does suggest that the elders are the ones that bring the prayers to GOD, why not ask them instead of Mary?

Well first of all I would direct you to John 20.
John 20

[19]
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
[20] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
[21] Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
[24]

Note here that "he breathed on them". There is one other place in scripture where God breathes on man. It is in genesis where he gives Adam life, both spiritual and physical. Here he is restoring spiritual life. Note also that he says "receive the Holy Spirit". He is conferring a power of the Holy Spirit on them. When the Apostles cured the sick and the lame for instance in Acts, was it they or God doing it. Well actually it was God through the power of the Holy Spirit. This understanding is key to your question. Note that the forgiveness here is forgiven or retained BY GOD when it is forgiven or retained by those given this power. God works through his creation. He works through us to his glory:

Eph 3
[20] Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen

Paul tells us that his work is not of his own but "Christ lives in me". The point in all of this is that when I am in the confessional, it in no way contradicts Christ having the power to forgive sins. The priest is the instrument through which he does it and when I confess and the priest gives me absolution (which acknowledges the power of Christ to forgive sins) I know that they are truly forgiven by God. I have asked forgiveness the way that he requested that we do in John 20 above. The means through which he set up.

One other interesting passage is:

Matt 9
[8] When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men. What was the authority?

This authority spoken of is given to MEN. Not just Jesus who excercised it. Let's look at what this authority is:

[5] For which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Rise and walk'?
[6] But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- he then said to the paralytic -- "Rise, take up your bed and go home."
[7] And he rose and went home.

The forgiveness of sins. In the same passage in Mark they say in this very episode as you do "only God can forgive sins". He does it through men.

I must read more into this one and study more. I have read these scriptures before but the power to forgive sins was only give to Jesus and to the 12 as far as I can see. They did get "breathed" on but this was the infilling of the Holy Ghost, which is not uncommon today. So what exactly gives the priest the right to forgive sins? Does GOD call him? Does he have something special that you do not?

Well first of all your view is one of not understanding Catholicism which does not say all go to purgatory. Therefore it is no conflict if one were in purgatory and one went straight to heaven. I've been through a whole debate on the idea of imputed righteousness and the need for sanctification before heaven and how if the sanctification is not completed on earth (which it can be) it must be completed before heaven is entered. This is by the grace of God. Some call it the fire of God's love which we come to know in it's perfection (for we shall see him as he really is). We think the passage below indicates the distinction I make:

1 Cor 3
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

One man is ready for his reward. The other must go through some sort of a purging by fire. The fire of God's love. We are told in revelations, "Nothing unclean shall enter" and so all sin and unrighteousness must be completely sanctified from us before heaven.

Agreed that nothing unclean will enter heaven. Thus, we are sanctified by repenting, being baptised, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost(Acts 2:38). Reading a more modern translation of 1 Corintians you get this. That the foundation of each man that comes to Christ is prepared by Christ and that everything on top of that should be done by us THROUGH CHRIST. Christ will eventually try what we are doing and if it is of him, then it will stand. If it is not, then it will be torn down to be restarted again. If we hold to the foundation, then we ourselves will not be destroyed(sent to hell).

I will question whether "the bosom of abraham" was heaven since we are told that Chirst is the first fruits. We are told that after Christ's death the saints of old were released from the tombs in Matt 27. Noone was able to enter heaven before this time as I understand. Before mankinds sins were truly atoned for. Both men of the Old and men of the New Testament. Christ's sacrifice redeemed them all and so they could not enter heaven before his atonement.

This is why I said that it was an assumption. The passage talks about a great gulf between the two and obviously Lazarus and Abraham were allowed to go to the same place without dieing around the same time. Again, I am not totally sure about this. I need more bible study on this topic.

I hope this helps you understand better.

Blessings

Another question I have, how do Catholics believe that you are saved?

Is there another book besides the bible that Catholics read and live by?

 

[Vic C.]

I'm not bashing the Catholic faith...

Please do not get me wrong, I am not bashing and I am not setting this up to bash Catholics.

:smt023

That will serve as an underlying attribute of this thread.

Absolutely, I agree. I will be assisting in modding this along with JM during Potluck's off hours and like Jason, I will be lurking. 8-)

This thread is to give our Catholic brothers and sisters a chance to discuss their beliefs. Honest questions with no intentions of sparking debates is appreciated.

Got a beef with something said here, take it to another Forum (Apologetics and Theology is good) or via PMs.

Peace all,
Vic

 

[thessalonian]

I like it!

 

[CatholicXian]

Cool thread.

Is this just for non-Catholics to ask Catholics questions... or for Catholics to discuss their beliefs on the Bible?

 

[sehad]

Cool thread.

Is this just for non-Catholics to ask Catholics questions... or for Catholics to discuss their beliefs on the Bible?

I have used it to ask questions of thess, but we are doing this over PM due to the fact that I understand that most poeple on here bash Catholics. Which I find it hard to believe that y'all will take such a beating and still stay on here. I'm not Catholic and honestly will probably never be Catholic but I do admire most of those that I know. Which is honestly very few. Is it possible to have a thread where only the poeple you want to can view it? I would love for you to be able to join in. Even people of the same religion can have different views, which can prove valuable.

 

[CatholicXian]

Another question I have, how do Catholics believe that you are saved?

Is there another book besides the bible that Catholics read and live by?

Generally speaking, we are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, which is expressed in the way which we live our lives (our "works").
Check out more in the Catechism (read to CCC 2016 )



Catholics read lots of books... the Catechism of the Catholic Church, papal documents, devotional/spiritual books. But the Bible definitely has a pride of place by way of spiritual reading: CCC 103 "For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body." (read more here)

 

[Vic C.]

I have used it to ask questions of thess, but we are doing this over PM due to the fact that I understand that most poeple on here bash Catholics.

Unfortunately, this circumvents the purpose of the thread Jason started. I though it was implied by mine and Potluck's posts that "bashing" wouldn't be tolerated here.

Peace,
Vic

 

[CatholicXian]

Cool thread.

Is this just for non-Catholics to ask Catholics questions... or for Catholics to discuss their beliefs on the Bible?

I have used it to ask questions of thess, but we are doing this over PM due to the fact that I understand that most poeple on here bash Catholics. Which I find it hard to believe that y'all will take such a beating and still stay on here. I'm not Catholic and honestly will probably never be Catholic but I do admire most of those that I know. Which is honestly very few. Is it possible to have a thread where only the poeple you want to can view it? I would love for you to be able to join in. Even people of the same religion can have different views, which can prove valuable.

Cool, I'm glad you and Thess have been chatting over PM. It's usually easier one on one.

 

[CatholicXian]

I have used it to ask questions of thess, but we are doing this over PM due to the fact that I understand that most poeple on here bash Catholics.

Unfortunately, this circumvents the purpose of the thread Jason started. I though it was implied by mine and Potluck's posts that "bashing" wouldn't be tolerated here.

Peace,
Vic

No offense intended, but it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. Christian charity should be expected at all times.

 

[Vic C.]

I have used it to ask questions of thess, but we are doing this over PM due to the fact that I understand that most poeple on here bash Catholics.

Unfortunately, this circumvents the purpose of the thread Jason started. I though it was implied by mine and Potluck's posts that "bashing" wouldn't be tolerated here.

Peace,
Vic

No offense intended, but it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. Christian charity should be expected at all times.

I will keep that in mind. ;-)

 

[thessalonian]

Anyone have a question?

 

[stovebolts]

Anyone have a question?

"The kingdom of God is at hand"
541 "Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying: 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe in the gospel.'" [Mk 1:14-15] "To carry out the will of the Father Christ inaugurated the kingdom of heaven on earth." [LG 3] Now the Father's will is "to raise up men to share in his own divine life". [LG 2] He does this by gathering men around his Son Jesus Christ. This gathering is the Church, "on earth the seed and beginning of that kingdoms". [LG 5] [2816, 763, 669, 768, 865]

542 Christ stands at the heart of this gathering of men into the "family of God". By his word, through signs that manifest the reign of God, and by sending out his disciples, Jesus calls all people to come together around him. But above all in the great Paschal mystery - his death on the cross and his Resurrection - he would accomplish the coming of his kingdom. "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Into this union with Christ all men are called. [Jn 12:32; cf. LG 3] [2233, 789]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

What are your thoughts on these?

Much Thanks,
Jeff

 

[thessalonian]

Anyone have a question?

"The kingdom of God is at hand"
541 "Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying: 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe in the gospel.'" [Mk 1:14-15] "To carry out the will of the Father Christ inaugurated the kingdom of heaven on earth." [LG 3] Now the Father's will is "to raise up men to share in his own divine life". [LG 2] He does this by gathering men around his Son Jesus Christ. This gathering is the Church, "on earth the seed and beginning of that kingdoms". [LG 5] [2816, 763, 669, 768, 865]

542 Christ stands at the heart of this gathering of men into the "family of God". By his word, through signs that manifest the reign of God, and by sending out his disciples, Jesus calls all people to come together around him. But above all in the great Paschal mystery - his death on the cross and his Resurrection - he would accomplish the coming of his kingdom. "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Into this union with Christ all men are called. [Jn 12:32; cf. LG 3] [2233, 789]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

What are your thoughts on these?

Much Thanks,
Jeff

I like em. :-D

Oh I suppose that is not what you are looking for. Well here is what I think. Cornelius was said to be a "God fearing and righteous man" BEFORE Peter came to him with the Gospel. He prayed to God and God heard his prayers. God brought salvation to him. I do not know of any "God-fearing and righteous men" (that's the words of scripture) who go to hell and so the conclusion could be made that Cornelius in his ignornace of Christ was not culpable for what he did not know but what he proved he was open to by his acceptance of Peter's words so readily. He had an eager heart for the truth as did the Bereans in Acts 17. God looks at the heart. So if Cornelius would have died BEFORE Peter brought him the Gospel the question is would he have gone to heaven or hell and I tell you I do not know and it is not mine to judge. The grace of God had already been working in his life and so God was about saving him before Peter came to him. God was already drawing him to him as the first two paragraphs you quote speak. God's laws are written on the hearts of all men such that they know right from wrong. (Rom 2:14-16).

[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them

This writing of the Law on men's hearts is by the grace of God as well.

I believe and the Church teaches that each man is accountable for the grace given him by God and I am not the judge of that grace. I am accountable, even at a higher responsibility of what he has given me. Therefore I hold hope that those who have not been given what I have MAY be saved.

Other examples are the Good Samaritain, held up as an example of good Christian behavior by Christ. The Samaritans were a mixture of Judaism and paganism. Also the three wise men saw Christ but there is no indication they knew the whole plan of salvation or anything about the ressurection. Do I need to preach the Gospel to all men? Most definitely but it is not my place to judge where they would go at that moment or the path that God (who desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth) has laid out for their salvation. I must trust in God that I have planted a seed that will later grow and bear fruit.

Hope that helps.

 

[Vic C.]

[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them

I like that you quoted from Romans 2. I was hoping you or someone would. 8-)

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you thess, You've stated that very nicely.

It's good to have a thread like this!

Jeff

 

[thessalonian]

Your welcome SB.

Any other questions?