Bible Study Catholics... Questions...

[Gary]

I guess my point was...The Father and the Son are one, to reject the Son is to reject the Father.

You are correct Job. However, the RCC thinks that it is OK to reject Jesus.

:-?

 

[CatholicXian]

I guess my point was...The Father and the Son are one, to reject the Son is to reject the Father.

You are correct Job. However, the RCC thinks that it is OK to reject Jesus.

:-?

Evidence of this, Gary? :roll:

 

[Dave...]

Evidence of this, Gary?

(beet ya to it.)

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." RCC

 

[Gary]

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 228#170228

The "plan of salvation" from the RCC includes Muslims, "first place amongst whom are the Muslims."

Are you not aware that Muslims REJECT Jesus?

:roll:

 

[Dave...]

Colossians 1:15-16 says of Jesus, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." John the Apostle says of Jesus, "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made" (John 1:3). Jesus accomplished the work of creation. He is preeminent in all of creation, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, as the Creator.

Somehow, Catholism is seperating the Father from the Son and saying that this god too can lead to salvation.

 

[Gary]

LOL with Job!!! :smt023 You win!

 

[CatholicXian]

:roll:
Does the Catechism suggest that ALL muslims will be saved? No, it does not.
Like I said.. CONTEXT... the ENTIRE Catehchism, not just one part (or paragraph!).

ALL who are saved are saved by the grace and mercy of God through the merits of Jesus Christ won on the Cross. Period.

CCC 432 "The name "Jesus" signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.""

CCC 1949 "Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him"

etc.,etc., etc.

 

[Gary]

CatholicXian: Does the Catechism suggest that ALL muslims will be saved? No, it does not.

Gary: Does the CCC suggest that Muslims can be saved WITHOUT accepting Jesus Christ? Yes, it does.

Forget the mumbo-jumbo of the CCC and READ the Bible instead.

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,†that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:9-10

I guess the RCC has a different Bible!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary, if all are saved through Christ, as I've shown you Catholicism teaches, then it ought to be clear that no one is saved apart from Christ, which would logically include accepting Christ (perhaps just not as you're accustomed to it.. i.e., explicitly verbal).

Words don't mean everything Gary... Matthew 7:21

 

[Gary]

RCC: The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, first place amongst whom are the Muslims...

Bible: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Those are two different Gospels! Muslims do not even believe that Jesus died on the cross let alone that God raised Him (Jesus) from the dead.

:o

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary, the Catechism is not guaranteeing Muslims salvation apart from Christ. You can make all the assumptions you want, but they will remain empty assumptions with no real understanding until you actually take it IN CONTEXT with the the rest of the Catechism.

 

[Gary]

CatholicXian, the CCC contradicts itself and has two different Gospels, one of which clearly contradicts Scripture.

You can call on the CCC as much as you like. The Bible is clear on this.

I select (again) the Bible over the CCC. You again select the CCC over the Bible.

How sad.

The CCC suggests that the God of the Bible is the same as the "god" of the Quran. Again, a serious error which shows very little understanding of Islam and the Quran.

 

[Gary]

Evangelizing Muslims

Some fresh thoughts about the subject.....

I have been involved with evangelizing Muslims for 5 years now. One thought struck me last night. I have yet to come across a Roman Catholic who does evangelism to Muslims. Online, almost all the well known evangelists to Muslims are Reformed in their theology. They are not all from the same denomination, being Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical Free, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ etc but NONE are Roman Catholic.

• M. N. Anderson
  James Arlandson
  Rev. Richard P. Bailey
  Andy Bannister
  Dr. William Campbell
  Roland Clarke
  John Gilchrist
  Samuel Green
  Dr. Ernest Hahn
  Farooq Ibrahim
  Dawud Jabal
  Memsuah Mansoor
  Abu Miriam
  Gerhard Nehls
  Alano Perez
  Dallas Roark
  Brahim Sene
  Sam Shamoun
  Silas
  Wail Taghlibi
  Anthony Wales
  Walid

Then I looked at the well known books on Muslim evangelism. Again, whether the book is in layman's terms or is theological or technical, I have not found a single book by a Roman Catholic.

Strange?

Not really. I then considered converts. Many, many converts to Islam from Christianity are from Roman Catholicism or were lapsed Roman Catholics. I think it is very easy to go from the Roman Catholic rituals to the Islamic rituals!

I also considered the converts to Christianity from Islam. Almost all of those who admit their conversion to Christianity have converted to born-again, Bible-believing Christianity, none to Roman Catholicism.

Strange?

Not really. When someone encounters the living Jesus and is born-again in the Spirit they will never go back to the ritual of something like Roman Catholicism or Islam.

Has this always been like this? Below are a list of very well know Christian authors of a more classical vintage. Guess what? I can't find a Roman Catholic amongst them!

• Al-Kalbi
  Al-Kindi
  James Levi Barton
  Richard Bell
  Leone Caetani
  Jens Christensen
  W. H. T. Gairdner
  Abraham Geiger
  H.A.R. Gibb
  William Goldsack
  Thomas Patrick Hughes
  C. Snouck Hurgronje
  Arthur Jeffery
  Duncan B. Macdonald
  David S. Margoliouth
  Alphonse Mingana
  Sir William Muir
  Theodor Nöldeke
  Carl Gottlieb Pfander
  Joseph Schacht
  Philip Schaff
  [Canon] Edward Sell
  John Subhan
  William St. Clair-Tisdall
  Charles Cutler Torrey
  E. M. Wherry
  Arthur N. Wollaston
  Samuel Zwemer

I guess the original answer by Roman Catholics to the Muslim threat was the Crusades. They failed miserably. The more recent "campaign" by Roman Catholics towards Muslims is Ecumenism. i.e. if you can't beat them, join them!

The above series of rather feeble responses to the errors about Islam and Muslims by CatholicXian and the RCC only reinforces the premise and conclusion..... Roman Catholicism has no answer to Islam because Roman Catholicism is not the truth.



Some light reading... (A Catholic priest admits that Islam has appeal)
http://www.yourcatholicvoice.org/index. ... ticle=1189

.

 

[Confusion]

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This is blasphemy and is calling Jesus a liar.

Is G-d not a liar then?
God called the Israelites (sp?) his choosen people... A people he would save... Yet they never knew of Jesus... When he came, they majoritly did not take his message to heart...

Therefore, as Gary says

Bible: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Since G-d said the Israelites (sp?) were his CHOOSEN People... Whom he saved... Since the main message is the Bible is that you have to confess Jesus is Lord and Ressurected... G-d Lied... Atheism here I come...

 

[Dave...]

Job wrote:
Quote:
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."


This is blasphemy and is calling Jesus a liar.

Confusion said:
Is G-d not a liar then?
God called the Israelites (sp?) his choosen people... A people he would save... Yet they never knew of Jesus... When he came, they majoritly did not take his message to heart...

Therefore, as Gary says
Quote:
Bible: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Confusion said:
Since G-d said the Israelites (sp?) were his CHOOSEN People... Whom he saved... Since the main message is the Bible is that you have to confess Jesus is Lord and Ressurected... G-d Lied... Atheism here I come...

Your arguement doesn't make sense, Confusion. (no pun intended)

Do you know how OT saints were saved? What did the Blood sacrifices symbolise and point towards?

 

[Confusion]

that would be a matter of opinion... I suppose that would be through faith and work... And belief in the future messiah, though they could not know of his ressurection... This even confused the Apostles... So then they would not be saved because they could not believe Jesus was raised form the dead since it could not happen...
Confusing as it may be, all I am saying is that anyone before Jesus' time could not be saved then if the Bible specifically say Jesus must be recognized as Messiah and raised from the dead... Since his ressurection would not have happened by then...
If that is what Gary says it is, then how could one be saved if he would have never known it...

From this site I've seen only literal Bible translation with a curve on interpretation... So I may as well use it to while I'm here