Charismatics ARE Cessationists

[whitney]

This is not how healing happened with the Apostles. Therefore it is not the same gift.

Cessation of Apostolic gift.



What are you referring to here?



I'll take a raincheck.

How about the 'tongues' that most people practice in their faith? Unintelligable ecstatic utterances. Is that the same as what the Apostles did regarding the miracle of tongues? I'd say no it isn't.

Cessation of Apostolic gift.



Right so, the Apostles had prophetic miraculous revelation. Thats not around today.

Cessation of Apostolic gift.



If that was the reason why didnt Paul heal himself when he was sick?



Absolutely! Amen! This was always the purpose of miraculous healing in scripture. Ultimately...to bring belief and TO HEAL THE SOUL.



Uhm...slightly cryptic. :



NO!

Ok, Strangelove, there are too many points in these posts, so if you don't mind let's pick one or two - if that is ok with you?

First, Paul's ailment.

2 Corinthians 12:7 <SUP id=en-ASV-29030 class=versenum>7</SUP> And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.

There was a reason Paul was given the thorn in his flesh, so he would not exalt himself, to keep him humble. He did not stay that way either, although he suffered a great amount for the sake of Christ! He KNEW the cause for his ailment. This is an example of not receiving your healing right away. The Word does not say we will never suffer, in fact, we are supposed to suffer for the sake of Christ.

James 1:2-4 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> whenever you face trials of many kinds, <SUP id=en-NIV-30270 class=versenum>3</SUP> because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. <SUP id=en-NIV-30271 class=versenum>4</SUP> Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Phillipians 1:29 <SUP id=en-ASV-29391 class=versenum>29</SUP> because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

We are supposed to suffer, the Word does not say we will never get physically sick, but Praise God we have a Physician who will manifest His healings in us.

God bless you Strangelove!

 

[Alabaster]

Why dont we see the same gifts in operation today? The gifts as seen in Charismatic churches are not the same as those in the apostolic era. Do you agree or disagree?

We do see the gifts today. They are the same as the gifts given to the early church.

Gifts were a sign to unbelievers. Why do charismatics use gifts as a sign to eachother? We dont need to have those miracles now because we have the full cannon of scripture and 2000 years of Christianity to lend legitamacy to the Gospel.

We need these gifts now because Jesus is still building His church in the world. That is what they are for.

Christians use their gifts in the spreading of the Gospel and in the meeting places for our edification. We rejoice in the presence of God and what He shows us and speaks to us through them.

We are exhorted to minister to each other, and then the world.

 

[reba]

Nicely said Mike

I heard someone say on the radio the other day, "Do you notice the reports of UFO sightings have decreased now that most people have phones with cameras and video?" Now, don't get me wrong. I believe healings happen, but I see a correlation with the amount of healings and supposed miracles decreasing. Again, I believe they happen and often go unreported. But the frauds who used shams to exploit their followers might be at a disadvantage with our modern technology.

 

[Strangelove]

Ok, Strangelove, there are too many points in these posts, so if you don't mind let's pick one or two - if that is ok with you?

First, Paul's ailment.

2 Corinthians 12:7 <SUP class=versenum id=en-ASV-29030>7</SUP> And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.

There was a reason Paul was given the thorn in his flesh, so he would not exalt himself, to keep him humble. He did not stay that way either, although he suffered a great amount for the sake of Christ! He KNEW the cause for his ailment. This is an example of not receiving your healing right away. The Word does not say we will never suffer, in fact, we are supposed to suffer for the sake of Christ.

James 1:2-4 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> whenever you face trials of many kinds, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30270>3</SUP> because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30271>4</SUP> Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Phillipians 1:29 <SUP class=versenum id=en-ASV-29391>29</SUP> because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

We are supposed to suffer, the Word does not say we will never get physically sick, but Praise God we have a Physician who will manifest His healings in us.

God bless you Strangelove!

Did Paul ever get sick apart from the thorn in the flesh incident?

What about Galatians:

4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel
unto you at the first.
4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor
rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.​

Why didnt Paul heal himself instantly?

Also in Timothy:

4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum
sick.

Paul could have healed his good friends here. Why didnt he?

The reason is because miraculous healing was for a sign to unbelievers. To convince them of the coming message of the Gospel.​

 

[Strangelove]

We do see the gifts today. They are the same as the gifts given to the early church.

So you have revalatory prophecy, instant healings (blind see, dead raised etc) and tongues speaking unlearned Earthly languages to the unsaved...in your church?

We need these gifts now because Jesus is still building His church in the world. That is what they are for.

Why is it that only charismatic churches seem to need them? Why dont other denoms. need the gifts?

 

[Alabaster]

So you have revalatory prophecy, instant healings (blind see, dead raised etc) and tongues speaking unlearned Earthly languages to the unsaved...in your church?

Many of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are seen and utilized in our church. That's the place for them.

Why is it that only charismatic churches seem to need them? Why dont other denoms. need the gifts?

Maybe it's because they are completely open to God and what He wants to do among His people. Allowing the Holy Spirit to flow is important to a healthy church, and healthy Christians.

All churches need the gifts, but not all churches welcome His presence.

 

[Strangelove]

Many of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are seen and utilized in our church. That's the place for them.

So if you are getting revalatory prophecy from God shouldn't you be sharing that information with us? Are you writing it down? Is it important to the Body?

If people are performing instant miraculous healings and causing the blind to see and raising the dead shouldn't they be on the news or going to hospitals and healing children with cancer?

Are you saying that the miracle of tongues as used in Acts is occuring in your church? So there are Jews present who are being converted daily via this miracle?

Maybe it's because they are completely open to God and what He wants to do among His people. Allowing the Holy Spirit to flow is important to a healthy church, and healthy Christians.

All churches need the gifts, but not all churches welcome His presence.

So all other denoms are closed to God and His will and do not welcome God's prescence? Thats your position? You are basically saying that there are no Christians outside of the Charismatic/Pente movement. Is that right? After all you cant be a Christian and be closed to God and His will. Correct?

Or is it possible that Apostolic miracles are different from what you see happening in your church?

 

[Alabaster]

So if you are getting revalatory prophecy from God shouldn't you be sharing that information with us? Are you writing it down? Is it important to the Body?

It is important for our (and it follows---your) body of believers. That is how the Holy Spirit works. That is why it is important that each fellowship open up to Him.

If people are performing instant miraculous healings and causing the blind to see and raising the dead shouldn't they be on the news or going to hospitals and healing children with cancer?

The Lord does these things for His people in their own body. If churches were behaving the way they should, then people wouldn't have to go far for their healings. It wouldn't have to be a sensational activity that it has become, nor would it become rife with error, either.

The Bible tells us that when we are sick we are to go to the churches and be anointed and prayed over---not to someone else's church, and certainly not to a TV show.

Every church should be taking care of each other, and the people within should be gong out and bringing healing and knowledge to those that they come into contact with in their communities.

Are you saying that the miracle of tongues as used in Acts is occuring in your church? So there are Jews present who are being converted daily via this miracle?

Of course it is.

So all other denoms are closed to God and His will and do not welcome God's prescence?

Many denominations inhibit and prohibit the Holy Spirit.

You are basically saying that there are no Christians outside of the Charismatic/Pente movement. Is that right? After all you cant be a Christian and be closed to God and His will. Correct?

False.

Or is it possible that Apostolic miracles are different from what you see happening in your church?

I don't think so. God doesn't change. People do.

 

[Strangelove]

It is important for our (and it follows---your) body of believers. That is how the Holy Spirit works. That is why it is important that each fellowship open up to Him.

Your saying that God delivers revelatory prophecy that is SPECIFIC to each charismatic church individually and not to the Body of Christ as a whole? Tell me, is that how revelatory prophecy worked in the Apostolic era?

I guess your not prepared to tell us what God is saying to your church then?

The Lord does these things for His people in their own body. If churches were behaving the way they should, then people wouldn't have to go far for their healings. It wouldn't have to be a sensational activity that it has become, nor would it become rife with error, either.

The Bible tells us that when we are sick we are to go to the churches and be anointed and prayed over---not to someone else's church, and certainly not to a TV show.

Chapter and verse please.

Every church should be taking care of each other, and the people within should be gong out and bringing healing and knowledge to those that they come into contact with in their communities.

Are your faith healers taking their gifts into the communities? Into hospitals?

Of course it is.

Are you seriously stating that people are using 'tongues' by miraclously speaking unlearned Earthly languages in your church and are converting Jews to Christianity on a daily basis with this method? If I write an email to your church they would be happy to confirm that?

Many denominations inhibit and prohibit the Holy Spirit.

False.

So you can be closed to God and still be Christian?

I don't think so. God doesn't change. People do.

Cessationism has nothing to do with the character of God changing.

Anyway, by your line of reasoning God changed at Pentacost when He introduced the 'gift of tongues'. Why no tongues before then? Did God change? Your argument is untenable.

 

[whitney]

Did Paul ever get sick apart from the thorn in the flesh incident?

What about Galatians:

4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel
unto you at the first.
4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor
rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.​

Why didnt Paul heal himself instantly?

The infirmity of the flesh is extremely likely the same as "the thorn in the flesh". I already gave you scripture as to why Paul was not healed immediately. The Bible does not say we will never get sick, but it does say we are healed.

Also in Timothy:

4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum
sick.​

Paul could have healed his good friends here. Why didnt he?​

The reason is because miraculous healing was for a sign to unbelievers. To convince them of the coming message of the Gospel.​

Because he had a stomach ache LOL, come on Strangelove, they were healing the BLIND, raising the dead, healing people who couldn't walk, healing leprosy and you pick scripture where someone has a stomach ache. I'm pretty sure Trophimus was just fine. LOL

The miracles that happen today, could be a simple stomach ache, but people who truly have the gift of healing are healing people with cancer, fatal illnesses, people who should be dead from car accidents are alive today because of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Thing BIG Strangelove, take a look around, get out of the box.

 

[Alabaster]

Your saying that God delivers revelatory prophecy that is SPECIFIC to each charismatic church individually and not to the Body of Christ as a whole? Tell me, is that how revelatory prophecy worked in the Apostolic era?

Sure. Prophecy is not simply foretelling. It is mainly forthtelling.

I guess your not prepared to tell us what God is saying to your church then?

He says a lot of things germane to our particular needs and flavour.

Chapter and verse please.

James 5:14 NLT
Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

Are your faith healers taking their gifts into the communities? Into hospitals?

We pray over each other when we are sick and hospitalized, and we pray over people we meet who have needs. That is how Christians are to live.

Are you seriously stating that people are using 'tongues' by miraclously speaking unlearned Earthly languages in your church and are converting Jews to Christianity on a daily basis with this method? If I write an email to your church they would be happy to confirm that?

If we had some Jews, they could come to Christ by hearing the Gospel. We don;t have foreign tongues spoken much, as our church is full of English-speaking people. I do not limit God to cause someone in our church to prophesy in tongues for the sake of one who is not English-speaking. However, in our church, we have many people who speak many different languages and we have actually had members simply translate the sermon to their visitors. That is not tongues in operation, but I am positive God can do that.

PS: Do not bother my church leadership with an email. I am sure the admins here would have something to say about that behaviour, should you try to do so.

So you can be closed to God and still be Christian?

A Christian can close one's heart off to the voice of God. Look at the prophet Jonah! They would be in line for a bit of a shaking---that's a given!

Cessationism has nothing to do with the character of God changing.

I wasn't speaking of His character.

Miracles today are no different from Jesus' day. He doesn't change and neither do His marvelous works!

Anyway, by your line of reasoning God changed at Pentacost when He introduced the 'gift of tongues'. Why no tongues before then? Did God change? Your argument is untenable.

No way.

God added power to His people, and began the new thing called the Church.

 

[Strangelove]

The infirmity of the flesh is extremely likely the same as "the thorn in the flesh". I already gave you scripture as to why Paul was not healed immediately. The Bible does not say we will never get sick, but it does say we are healed.

Because he had a stomach ache LOL, come on Strangelove, they were healing the BLIND, raising the dead, healing people who couldn't walk, healing leprosy and you pick scripture where someone has a stomach ache. I'm pretty sure Trophimus was just fine. LOL

The miracles that happen today, could be a simple stomach ache, but people who truly have the gift of healing are healing people with cancer, fatal illnesses, people who should be dead from car accidents are alive today because of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Thing BIG Strangelove, take a look around, get out of the box.

SHOW ME THEN!

Show me where people are being instantly healed by faith healing, healed from critical afflictions. Show me the proof! Show me the people who were CONVERTED by these miracles. Because that is what they are for.

 

[Strangelove]

Sure. Prophecy is not simply foretelling. It is mainly forthtelling.

Right so FORETELLING has ceased. Apostolic gift cessation. Therefore you are a cessasionist to some degree. Unless you say you or your church are receiving foretellings from the Lord.

He says a lot of things germane to our particular needs and flavour.

Can you give us an example? Are you talking about FOREtellings?

James 5:14 NLT
Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

You said:

"The Bible tells us that when we are sick we are to go to the churches and be anointed and prayed over"

The Bible verse not only says that the elders should be called and come to you, but in fact the word 'sick' means tired/exausted. So you are in error on both counts.

We pray over each other when we are sick and hospitalized, and we pray over people we meet who have needs. That is how Christians are to live.

Are any INSTANTLY healed? If not then that is Apostolic gift cessation.

If we had some Jews, they could come to Christ by hearing the Gospel. We don;t have foreign tongues spoken much, as our church is full of English-speaking people. I do not limit God to cause someone in our church to prophesy in tongues for the sake of one who is not English-speaking. However, in our church, we have many people who speak many different languages and we have actually had members simply translate the sermon to their visitors. That is not tongues in operation, but I am positive God can do that.

Then that is not the miracle of tongues as happened at Pentacost. That is not supernatural 'tongues'. Apostolic gift cessation. Translating the sermon into someones foreign language is the gift of interpretation. Absolutely valid. This is excellent.

PS: Do not bother my church leadership with an email. I am sure the admins here would have something to say about that behaviour, should you try to do so.

I dont need to, you've already confirmed miracle 'tongues' has ceased.

A Christian can close one's heart off to the voice of God. Look at the prophet Jonah! They would be in line for a bit of a shaking---that's a given!

A Christian doesn't stay closed to God's will. You're accusation that all non-Charismatic churches are closed to the will of God is a very serious one.

I wasn't speaking of His character.

Miracles today are no different from Jesus' day. He doesn't change and neither do His marvelous works!

You've confirmed in this post that Apostolic gifts have ceased.

No way.

God added power to His people, and began the new thing called the Church.

If God can ADD power to His people without CHANGING then He can SUBTRACT power from His people without changing TOO.

Thanking you for illustrating the point.

Doc.

 

[Elijah674]

The point is, is that Rev. 2:5 finds INSPIRED DOCUMENTED fact which would find this 'Candelstick' [A] given toss if they had ever been the Virgin one of Laodicea in the first place, which they NEVER had been! Their doctrines attest to that Christ could NEVER be in such stuff! Joshua 7:14 last part of the verse! 'NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANYMORE..' !!

(and that has been well past any probational 120 years of Striving of the Holy Ghost. as in Gen. 6:3.. to clean up their Rev. 17:1-5 'spiritual' mess with NO PROPHESIED RESULTS!!)

---Elijah

 

[zone]

If God can ADD power to His people without CHANGING then He can SUBTRACT power from His people without changing TOO.

Thanking you for illustrating the point.

Doc.

 

[zone]

The point is, is that Rev. 2:5 finds INSPIRED DOCUMENTED fact which would find this 'Candelstick' [A] given toss if they had ever been the Virgin one of Laodicea in the first place, which they NEVER had been! Their doctrines attest to that Christ could NEVER be in such stuff! Joshua 7:14 last part of the verse! 'NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANYMORE..' !!

(and that has been well past any probational 120 years of Striving of the Holy Ghost. as in Gen. 6:3.. to clean up their Rev. 17:1-5 'spiritual' mess with NO PROPHESIED RESULTS!!)

---Elijah

elijah.
how does The Lord save people from hell?
when will you know if He decided to save you?
what part do you have in making it to heaven?

 

[Elijah674]

elijah.
how does The Lord save people from hell?
when will you know if He decided to save you?
what part do you have in making it to heaven?

(My above highlites to your post)
He does not! Obad. 1:16 You are teaching in that post that God does indeed LIE, and that satan told the truth. (SICK POST!) Gen. 3:4

--Elijah

 

[zone]

deleted:
derailing thread.
not really interested anyways

 

[whitney]

SHOW ME THEN!

Show me where people are being instantly healed by faith healing, healed from critical afflictions. Show me the proof! Show me the people who were CONVERTED by these miracles. Because that is what they are for.

This is exactly what an atheist would say to me about God's existance. They can never just live by faith, they need proof, well it's a cycle isn't it? They want to believe, but they are lacking in faith, so how can you have faith in something if you don't have proof?
That is not faith - faith is believing something, when you don't see it.

 

[Strangelove]

This is exactly what an atheist would say to me about God's existance. They can never just live by faith, they need proof, well it's a cycle isn't it? They want to believe, but they are lacking in faith, so how can you have faith in something if you don't have proof?
That is not faith - faith is believing something, when you don't see it.

Uhm...no....faith is believing in God when you have the evidence and the substance of His existence. I believe in Jesus because of the Gospel testimonies. Thats the proof. Thats all I needed, I read it and I knew it was true. I SEE Jesus in scripture. Further proof was the regeneration of my life that came the moment I confessed Christ my saviour.

God made sure that those who are His sheep will hear His voice. He speaks to us through His Son, the Word, the truth. Scripture is truth.

Believing something when you dont see proof is not faith, its called something else.