Charismatics ARE Cessationists

[Alabaster]

Right so FORETELLING has ceased. Apostolic gift cessation. Therefore you are a cessasionist to some degree. Unless you say you or your church are receiving foretellings from the Lord.

Holy jump to conclusions batman!

There has been no cessation. Prophecy is forthtelling as well as foretelling.

Can you give us an example? Are you talking about FOREtellings?

I would rather not, except to say that the Lord has given us words about what we can expect as a church in our community, and they are being fulfilled.

You said:

"The Bible tells us that when we are sick we are to go to the churches and be anointed and prayed over"

The Bible verse not only says that the elders should be called and come to you, but in fact the word 'sick' means tired/exausted. So you are in error on both counts.

There is no difference. You are nitpicking God's word.

Are any INSTANTLY healed? If not then that is Apostolic gift cessation.

Yes, although Jesus healed in stages as well. All healings, however they happen, when we have declared healing to come forth in the name of Jesus, we can expect it no matter how it occurs, whether instant or gradual.

Then that is not the miracle of tongues as happened at Pentacost. That is not supernatural 'tongues'. Apostolic gift cessation. Translating the sermon into someones foreign language is the gift of interpretation. Absolutely valid. This is excellent.

Yes, a translation of a tongue one is learned in has got nothing to do with this. Tongues in prayer, however, is an ability all Spirit-filled believers have---like Paul had, whether or not they avail themselves of it is up to them.

I dont need to, you've already confirmed miracle 'tongues' has ceased.

Nothing has ceased, so you need to change your title to: "Only Non-Charismatics Are Cessationist."

A Christian doesn't stay closed to God's will. You're accusation that all non-Charismatic churches are closed to the will of God is a very serious one.

If they deny the power and the infilling of the Holy Spirit and His manifestations through His people, they stifle Him. Now THAT is very serious to God.

I grew up in a non-charismatic church, however, that did not deny the Holy Spirit, but they didn't encourage them, either. What a loss that is to believers. they have since sold their beautiful building due to severely declining numbers. I wonder why....

You've confirmed in this post that Apostolic gifts have ceased.

Then you must be dyslexic.

If God can ADD power to His people without CHANGING then He can SUBTRACT power from His people without changing TOO.

Thanking you for illustrating the point.

You just run rampant with your error and totally disregard what epople whoa re speaking the truth say.

Blessings to you just the same.

 

[Alabaster]

(My above highlites to your post)
He does not! Obad. 1:16 You are teaching in that post that God does indeed LIE, and that satan told the truth. (SICK POST!) Gen. 3:4

--Elijah

What do you think salvation means, Bubba? SAVED FROM SIN and HELLFIRE.

Jesus came to save us from eternal destruction as spoken in the ubiquitous verse found in none other than John 3:16. Look it up.

 

[Alabaster]

Uhm...no....faith is believing in God when you have the evidence and the substance of His existence. I believe in Jesus because of the Gospel testimonies. Thats the proof. Thats all I needed, I read it and I knew it was true. I SEE Jesus in scripture. Further proof was the regeneration of my life that came the moment I confessed Christ my saviour.

God made sure that those who are His sheep will hear His voice. He speaks to us through His Son, the Word, the truth. Scripture is truth.

Believing something when you dont see proof is not faith, its called something else.

Glad you profess Christ.

Now learn about faith.

Hebrews 11:1 NKJV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[whitney]

Uhm...no....faith is believing in God when you have the evidence and the substance of His existence. I believe in Jesus because of the Gospel testimonies. Thats the proof. Thats all I needed, I read it and I knew it was true. I SEE Jesus in scripture. Further proof was the regeneration of my life that came the moment I confessed Christ my saviour.

God made sure that those who are His sheep will hear His voice. He speaks to us through His Son, the Word, the truth. Scripture is truth.

Believing something when you dont see proof is not faith, its called something else.

Faith and believing are not the same thing. Even the demons believe and they shudder, but they do NOT have faith in God.

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD><TD vAlign=top><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=btext height=20 colSpan=2><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=orange2 width="99%"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
We have faith in God and we can not physically see Him, you can believe in God and still not have faith in God.

So we have faith He performs miracles today and He does, I have faith He will heal me and He does. I don't simply believe in Him, I have faith in Him. I believe He will do what He says He will do, even before it's done and that is faith.

 

[Alabaster]

Faith and believing are not the same thing. Even the demons believe and they shudder, but they do NOT have faith in God.

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD><TD vAlign=top><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=btext height=20 colSpan=2><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=orange2 width="99%"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
We have faith in God and we can not physically see Him, you can believe in God and still not have faith in God.

So we have faith He performs miracles today and He does, I have faith He will heal me and He does. I don't simply believe in Him, I have faith in Him. I believe He will do what He says He will do, even before it's done and that is faith.

Excellent!

If one requires visible evidence, then one has no need of faith, does he?

 

[jasoncran]

how can that which is perfect have already come?

the bible was put together nearly 3 centuries after that verse was put to pen!

and even then theres two "official versions" by the catholic church and both them were put together nearly the same time.

the vulgate and the early version of the duay reims.

which one is the "perfect"

we still argue over this today.

protestants will take the vulgate and the tyndale version till now but the catholics say the duay reims

the orthodox has its own along with the coptic

some much for perfection there.

 

[Strangelove]

Holy jump to conclusions batman!

There has been no cessation. Prophecy is forthtelling as well as foretelling.

I would rather not, except to say that the Lord has given us words about what we can expect as a church in our community, and they are being fulfilled.

The obvious conclusion to be drawn regarding your secret congregation specific prophecy and your reluctance to share with ALL Christians is that whatever prophecy you think you are getting from God, you don't have confidence in it. Do you write down prophecy from God? Is it important enough?

There is no difference. You are nitpicking God's word.

Everytime you are shown in error you try desperately to escape and then eventually you go silent. You would be better to just admit it....and say thank you.

There is a HUGE difference between elders being called to an exausted brethrens house to be prayed over and anointed with oil....and what charismatics do which is to carry out healing 'events' on stage in their congregations in church. Huge difference.

Yes, although Jesus healed in stages as well. All healings, however they happen, when we have declared healing to come forth in the name of Jesus, we can expect it no matter how it occurs, whether instant or gradual.

Jesus healed in stages? Documentation please. What happens when healing doesnt come to one of your congregation? I'm assuming some have died of disease, so whats the excuse?

Yes, a translation of a tongue one is learned in has got nothing to do with this. Tongues in prayer, however, is an ability all Spirit-filled believers have---like Paul had, whether or not they avail themselves of it is up to them.

Are you talking about babble? Everyone has the ability to do that whether Christian or not. You don't need to be spirit filled, its a skill learnt from man to man. Paul never spoke gibberish. 'Tongue of Angels' is a higher, eloquent use of Earthly language.

Nothing has ceased, so you need to change your title to: "Only Non-Charismatics Are Cessationist."

Until you show proof of Apostolic miraculous gifts then the title remains.

If they deny the power and the infilling of the Holy Spirit and His manifestations through His people, they stifle Him. Now THAT is very serious to God.

Other churches simply deny the power of MEN to perform miracles today. The fact we neither see them or need them justifies that logical position.

I grew up in a non-charismatic church, however, that did not deny the Holy Spirit, but they didn't encourage them, either. What a loss that is to believers. they have since sold their beautiful building due to severely declining numbers. I wonder why....

Probably because there will only be a remnant of true believers in the Word of God. Apostacy will rise and true faith will fall until the Great Tribulation that will bring millions of NEW believers to true faith.

Then you must be dyslexic.

Theres no need for personal attacks.

You just run rampant with your error and totally disregard what epople whoa re speaking the truth say.

Can God subtract manifestations of power from His people without changing? Yes or No?

 

[Strangelove]

Faith and believing are not the same thing. Even the demons believe and they shudder, but they do NOT have faith in God.

We have faith in God and we can not physically see Him, you can believe in God and still not have faith in God.

So we have faith He performs miracles today and He does, I have faith He will heal me and He does. I don't simply believe in Him, I have faith in Him. I believe He will do what He says He will do, even before it's done and that is faith.

So what was the telling evidence that gave you faith in God? Was it signs and wonders and miracles and healings? Or was it the Gospel message?

 

[Strangelove]

Excellent!

If one requires visible evidence, then one has no need of faith, does he?

If one has true faith, then one does not require visible evidence, does he?

 

[Strangelove]

how can that which is perfect have already come?

the bible was put together nearly 3 centuries after that verse was put to pen!

and even then theres two "official versions" by the catholic church and both them were put together nearly the same time.

the vulgate and the early version of the duay reims.

which one is the "perfect"

we still argue over this today.

protestants will take the vulgate and the tyndale version till now but the catholics say the duay reims

the orthodox has its own along with the coptic

some much for perfection there.

Rather than debate over lines of demarcation in the bible like 'that which is perfect'.........why not simply agree that the Apostolic gifts that we see in the Bible do not happen in charismatic churches. They simply dont happen. If they did, you could show us instant healings, blind people seeing, rasing the dead, miracle 'tongues', sure words of revelation prophecy etc.

Therefore even charismatics have to be cessationists at some level.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm curious about the point that you're trying to make here. Seems to me that you've stated that you've been called a cessationist, that somebody, somewhere has labeled you "one of those"

The Bible does speak of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit:

• Faith,
• Healings,
• Miracles,
• Tongues,
• Interpretation of Tongues,
• Prophecy,
• Wisdom,
• Knowledge and
• Discernment of Spirits

Your point then is that to one degree or another everybody, every Christian, is like you. Okay. That's true enough. Although I'll concede that Jesus is not here with us today in His Physical Presense, that He is with The Father and not on earth and will further concede that neither Peter nor Paul are walking on the earth today, I would still maintain that His promises are "Yes and Amen!" What I can not understand, nor agree with, is the need for continued naysaying.

If there are those who look forward to the restoration of the full ministry of Christ, seen through His followers, why then postulate that this can not happen because it has not been fully seen?

 

[whitney]

So what was the telling evidence that gave you faith in God? Was it signs and wonders and miracles and healings? Or was it the Gospel message?

There was no telling evidence, when I was about 9 years old I was given a child's Bible, I started reading it and just knew it was true, so I kept reading it. In fact, I wanted a sign and this may sound silly (but I was ONLY 9 years old), I put a rose in the Bible and wanted God to make it come alive again LOL but He never did, yet I still believed and that is when God taught me about faith, because we have to have faith w/out seeing, without signs and evidence.

God is the one who gives us our faith, we can not get it from ourselves. As I grew in my faith, I began to see signs of miracles and healings, and I am still growing in my faith.

God bless -

 

[whitney]

If one has true faith, then one does not require visible evidence, does he?

That is true, we don't require it, but God does it anyway. Once we have faith, His miracles and healings are not because He needs to show us He exists, we already KNOW He does, we already KNOW He can. They are blessings from Him, He loves to bless His children.

 

[zone]

I'm curious about the point that you're trying to make here. Seems to me that you've stated that you've been called a cessationist, that somebody, somewhere has labeled you "one of those"




The Bible does speak of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit:

• Faith,
• Healings,
• Miracles,
• Tongues,
• Interpretation of Tongues,
• Prophecy,
• Wisdom,
• Knowledge and
• Discernment of Spirits

Your point then is that to one degree or another everybody, every Christian, is like you. Okay. That's true enough. Although I'll concede that Jesus is not here with us today in His Physical Presense, that He is with The Father and not on earth and will further concede that neither Peter nor Paul are walking on the earth today, I would still maintain that His promises are "Yes and Amen!" What I can not understand, nor agree with, is the need for continued naysaying.

If there are those who look forward to the restoration of the full ministry of Christ, seen through His followers, why then postulate that this can not happen because it has not been fully seen?

because aside from unbiblical appropriations of Joel & relevent passages in Acts of THE APOSTLES, there is NOTHING written that says the Body of Christ has or will have Apostolic Authority and Powers today, nor that there will be a great revival. NOR DO WE NEED THEM!

in fact: THE OPPOSITE IS WRITTEN : apostasy, falling away to false teachers, an unwillingness to 'endure' sound doctrine; doctrines of devils; lying signs and wonders, etc.

and what's up with 'those who look forward to the restoration of the full ministry of Christ'??

we are told to proclaim the gospel and make disciples for Christ. that IS THE FULL COMMISSION.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm curious about the point that you're trying to make here. Seems to me that you've stated that you've been called a cessationist, that somebody, somewhere has labeled you "one of those"

Correct, it puzzled me that theres actually a name for this.

The Bible does speak of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit:

• Faith,
• Healings,
• Miracles,
• Tongues,
• Interpretation of Tongues,
• Prophecy,
• Wisdom,
• Knowledge and
• Discernment of Spirits

Yes the Bible mentions these things in a coupla verses. Some of those gifts were for everyone. But the miraculous ones we dont see anymore. People make WAY too much out of these.

Your point then is that to one degree or another everybody, every Christian, is like you. Okay. That's true enough. Although I'll concede that Jesus is not here with us today in His Physical Presense, that He is with The Father and not on earth and will further concede that neither Peter nor Paul are walking on the earth today, I would still maintain that His promises are "Yes and Amen!" What I can not understand, nor agree with, is the need for continued naysaying.

Well, because people are carrying out ungodly antics in church in the name of Jesus and becoming APOSTATE and dragging others down with them. I'm not trying to stop it, just speaking truth. The gifts displayed in charismatic churches are NOT the same as those described in the bible, but people claim they are. If I can get the truth through to just a few people (I've already had one person renounce kundalini shenannigans on the strength of my posts) then great.

If there are those who look forward to the restoration of the full ministry of Christ, seen through His followers, why then postulate that this can not happen because it has not been fully seen?

Whats wrong with the full ministry of Christ we have now? We evangelize the Gospel and keep eachother in sound doctrine while fellowshipping. Thats the ministry and how it works. We are told very clearly which gifts to hold firm in and they are all non-miraculous.

People are being deceived Sparra'. They are not worshipping in spirit and in truth.

 

[Strangelove]

There was no telling evidence, when I was about 9 years old I was given a child's Bible, I started reading it and just knew it was true, so I kept reading it. In fact, I wanted a sign and this may sound silly (but I was ONLY 9 years old), I put a rose in the Bible and wanted God to make it come alive again LOL but He never did, yet I still believed and that is when God taught me about faith, because we have to have faith w/out seeing, without signs and evidence.

God is the one who gives us our faith, we can not get it from ourselves. As I grew in my faith, I began to see signs of miracles and healings, and I am still growing in my faith.

God bless -

So, the Gospels then yeah?

 

[Strangelove]

That is true, we don't require it, but God does it anyway. Once we have faith, His miracles and healings are not because He needs to show us He exists, we already KNOW He does, we already KNOW He can. They are blessings from Him, He loves to bless His children.

Yes we can pray for healing and God will heal us if it suits His divine plan. If it doesnt then a Christian can get sick and die. Either way, that Christian is still saved.

 

[Alabaster]

Yes we can pray for healing and God will heal us if it suits His divine plan. If it doesnt then a Christian can get sick and die. Either way, that Christian is still saved.

Yes, Christians die, but it is never God's will for us to be sick. His healing is a promise.

Psalm 103:3 NLT
He forgives all my sins
and heals all my diseases.

 

[Alabaster]

The obvious conclusion to be drawn regarding your secret congregation specific prophecy and your reluctance to share with ALL Christians is that whatever prophecy you think you are getting from God, you don't have confidence in it. Do you write down prophecy from God? Is it important enough?



Everytime you are shown in error you try desperately to escape and then eventually you go silent. You would be better to just admit it....and say thank you.

If and when I err, I admit it. So far, I'm batting 1000.

There is a HUGE difference between elders being called to an exausted brethrens house to be prayed over and anointed with oil....and what charismatics do which is to carry out healing 'events' on stage in their congregations in church. Huge difference.

Oh, do they all? Are you that knowledgeable? Come on!

Obviously not.

Jesus healed in stages? Documentation please. What happens when healing doesnt come to one of your congregation? I'm assuming some have died of disease, so whats the excuse?

Jesus healed the blind man in stages.

Mark 8:22-26 NLT
<SUP id=en-NLT-24494 class=versenum>22</SUP> When they arrived at Bethsaida, some people brought a blind man to Jesus, and they begged him to touch the man and heal him. <SUP id=en-NLT-24495 class=versenum>23</SUP> Jesus took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village. Then, spitting on the man’s eyes, he laid his hands on him and asked, “Can you see anything now?”

<SUP id=en-NLT-24496 class=versenum>24</SUP> The man looked around. “Yes,” he said, “I see people, but I can’t see them very clearly. They look like trees walking around.” <SUP id=en-NLT-24497 class=versenum>25</SUP> Then Jesus placed his hands on the man’s eyes again, and his eyes were opened. His sight was completely restored, and he could see everything clearly. <SUP id=en-NLT-24498 class=versenum>26</SUP> Jesus sent him away, saying, “Don’t go back into the village on your way home.”

Are you talking about babble? Everyone has the ability to do that whether Christian or not. You don't need to be spirit filled, its a skill learnt from man to man. Paul never spoke gibberish. 'Tongue of Angels' is a higher, eloquent use of Earthly language.

We need Holy Spirit to speak in tongues.

Tongues of angels is what heaven speaks.

Until you show proof of Apostolic miraculous gifts then the title remains.

Unbelievers need God to open their eyes, not men. Picking and choosing what one will believe from God's word is not faith at work at all.

Other churches simply deny the power of MEN to perform miracles today. The fact we neither see them or need them justifies that logical position.

I see them. God working through faithful people...that is what He looks for. The Spirit-filled and Spirit-led churches are swelling with new members and the Spirit stifling churches are drying up.

Probably because there will only be a remnant of true believers in the Word of God. Apostacy will rise and true faith will fall until the Great Tribulation that will bring millions of NEW believers to true faith.

Obviously in this place there is a very tiny remnant.

Theres no need for personal attacks.

Why do you do it then?

Can God subtract manifestations of power from His people without changing? Yes or No?

Yes. He will remove His presence from those who turn on Him by denying His presence and power.

 

[Alabaster]

If one has true faith, then one does not require visible evidence, does he?

That's right. So, tell us why you want all this proof from people that only God can give you if you ask Him instead?