[_ Old Earth _] Chimps and humans: How similar are we really?

[Barbarian]

Now I realize that the status quo mantra says that chimps and humans started out with exactly the same chromosomes.

Not even two chimps have exactly the same chromosomes. There are always differences. No two humans have exactly the same chromosomes. So no.

Then, about 5 million years ago, the two started to drift apart in evolution. And that EITHER the two in chimps could have fused, or been one and then split,

Actually, no. The presence of the telomere and centromere remnants from the fusion would not be present if that were the case. And of course, it wasn't from chimps, but from the common ancestor of humans and chimps, which probably looked a lot more humanlike than the rather evolved chimpanzee.

but we do not have actual evidence of any drifting just the constructed narrative.

You've been misled there, too:

Different regions of the human and chimp genomes were found to have diverged at widely different times, and the two species' X chromosomes show a surprisingly recent divergence time.

This genetic evidence boosts the theory that the two species may have hybridized, because interbreeding causes strong selective pressure on the X chromosome and could have resulted in that chromosome's very young age in both humans and chimpanzees.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/humans-chimps_2.html

How do we prove this to be the case?

We need to sequence more primate DNA to see how this sorts out. That's on the way.

Since what we can know shows that the Y chromosome I inherited from my father is the same as his, and his was the same as his father’s, then logic demands this had carried on as far back as we go. The same is true for the chimpanzees. Since this is true, IMO it is more likely that the two were as separate then as they are now.

See above. The genetic data indicates that the split wasn't quick, and hybridization happened over a period of time, until the fusion event, at least.

If the chromosomal genome was identical between pre-chimp and modern chimp I can only surmise they were the same exact creature

As you see, that can only be true of identical twins. So, no.

 

[brother Paul]

So lets see...

In one post Barb says "All we can say is that a population of hominins with the same chromosomes as chimpanzees" from which two of them fused, and then Barb says "Not even two chimps have exactly the same chromosomes"....Hmmm? Which was correct and which incorrect since one negates the possibility of the other? "The same" chromosomes but not exactly "the same"chromosomes...right!

So first you postulate the existence of the same chromosomal genome to make one point (that it was from there they fused and produced the human divergence) and then declare its opposite to drive home another point....how very inconsistent!

IF the first had the "same chromosomes as chimpanzees" then they were in fact chimpanzees....and your add-on implied it was from these we descended...it was from these the fusion took place....can't you see that if your first assumption is true THEN this would indicate we evolved FROM chimpanzees (which you will now deny)....I think we are touching the area of cognitive dissonance again...

 

[Barbarian]

In one post Barb says "All we can say is that a population of hominins with the same chromosomes as chimpanzees" from which two of them fused, and then Barb says "Not even two chimps have exactly the same chromosomes"....Hmmm?

It's that little shuffle from "same chromosomes" to "exactly the same chromosomes." You and I, for example have the same chromosomes, but they aren't exactly the same. Every human on Earth has a chromosome number 2, but none of them, unless they are identical twins, from the same fertilized egg, have exactly the same.

Which was correct and which incorrect since one negates the possibility of the other? "The same" chromosomes but not exactly "the same"chromosomes...right!

IF the first had the "same chromosomes as chimpanzees" then they were in fact chimpanzees....

No. For example, gorillas have the same chromosomes as chimpanzees. Yet they aren't chimpanzees.

Here's a picture of the chromosomes from humans, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-other-great-apes-have-one-more-chromosome-than-us

can't you see that if your first assumption is true THEN this would indicate we evolved FROM chimpanzees (which you will now deny)...

See above. You can't parse away reality. Notice that chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans have the same chromosomes. But not exactly the same. Every individual has a slightly different set of alleles on the chromosome. And it is the alleles, not the chromosomes which code for proteins and make the organism what it is.

I think we are touching the area of cognitive dissonance again...

Afraid so. Is it clearer now?

 

[brother Paul]

No shuffle...they were your words, but I get what you meant now that you clarified...

Well I have contributed many differences...the reasons are not really relevant. The fact that they are there IS relevant. There's even a 20% difference in the lincRNA...and many many more not covered. Even where we are similar in design we are very different...yes we both have heads with eyes, ears, a mouth...we have arms with hands and legs....similar and yet very very different.

The many millions of genetic differences that may seem small in the grand scheme of things are apparently powerfully effectual.

The difference of brain development even in the fetal stages is magnanimous causing multiple differences. Our ability to intentionally influence our brains (like learning to quiet down the parietal lobe in practicing selflessness) effects the flow and function of brain chemistry where chimps are far more subject to it rather than able to shape such things.

The fact there are no actual supports for the historical narrative created by mockers and doubters, only theoretical ones, as a factor in how one comes to perceive these similarities and differences is powerful tool effecting such a discussion. And I agree, one could call the Creator concept a historical narrative of sorts and it also effects the way we perceive these similarities and differences.

Now though genetically we may only see a 5 or 6% difference at this time, more and more are ever forth coming (see the ENCODE work on the alleged sections called Junk).

Finally, since earth and evolution played such a major role in their original development, and God created us directly speaks volumes (and some scientists are also indicating the sudden appearance of humans). Everyone knows there is a God(s) until they are reasoned out of it (Genesis 3). Atheists are made not born....

Overall we are far more different than any 5 or 6 %....but the rhetoric that is repeated over and over will stick with most. So though I may disagree with your side as to what these things mean I do enjoy the engagement...iron sharpens iron as they say. So I am disengaging here as I have a couple of projects that are taking up much of my time...I will post on other threads from time to time but not as engaged as usual...have a great day Barbarian it is always a challenge, the Lord bless....

 

[Barbarian]

I assumed that everyone knows that having the same chromosomes doesn't mean having the same alleles on those chromosomes. And that assumption is often wrong.

 

[brother Paul]

It was great fun explaining this to my son many years ago and explaining their important role to my grandson last year in 7th grade....yes assuming people know or do not know is one more error....sometimes they, regarding somethings, just have a different interpretation of the same phenomena or event because some insight or information raises questions.

Some believe the energy change in the parietal lobe CAUSES "the spiritual experience" others can see that applying spiritual exercises and pursuits causes a change in the parietal lobe. The change is undoubted by all but its place in the process depends on what one has come to assume about consciousness and life.

 

[Barbarian]

Some believe the energy change in the parietal lobe CAUSES "the spiritual experience" others can see that applying spiritual exercises and pursuits causes a change in the parietal lobe.

It's always an interaction between life and environment. But the larger issue is why that happens.

God made nature to do His will, as He tells us in Genesis. Why is it such a surprise for so many people that it works that way?

 

[brother Paul]

Some apparently can only see one way for the why, and others can see another, while yet others can see all the alternatives. .