Choice or Chance?

[reba]

DO you guys believe in "divine providence"?

As i think you are using the term YES!.

 

[Danus]

As i think you are using the term YES!.

Mike you'll find my response here:

We are using the term the same based on an earlier comment you made about the nature of God. It was that comment that brought the term to mind and Jason's question asking about God' and 9/11.

It's been said in the past that God is like a watchmaker. He sets the gears and parts in motion, leaving it all to run on it's own. This is still somewhat of a prevailing thought. However, the bible tells us otherwise. God is either actively involved, or he is not. Divine Providence says that he is, and the bible surely says he is.....or was?

If God is not involved then we are on our own. In fact there is little need for prayer since God is not going to get involved, but we know this is not the case. Clearly God is involved.

That said, if he is involved then he is so by his will. He has a plan of action. He knows the plan of action and the course he will take.

We are also involved, clearly, and we are involved by our own will. However it was not our will that involved us to being with.

Anyone who has been, or currently has, a teenager knows this line; "I Never Asked to be born!" ....ever said or heard that? Thought it? It's a true statement. The fact is we did not, by our own will, create ourselves into being, but God did by his will, as part of his plan...not of our own.

Our will comes into play after we are born, not before. We have no control over our initial existence. We could use our will to commit suicide and end ourselves , but God could intervene and stop it by his will...or not, if you believe in the providence of God.

So our will is in fact limited....limited to what? To the will of God. True or False?

God can allow things, stop things, or direct things through his divine providence, and he either does or does not. this is either true or it is not.

If it is false, then our will takes precedence over God's will since God is not involved. We decide ...we make the choices, and one of those choices could be to come to God and be Christians or not. Again, God is not involved and we decide. We essentially save ourselves by our own free will to do so.

If it is true, then God is involved, and just as we have no will to create ourselves we have no will to save ourselves unless given the will first by God to do so. God enacts his will on humanity through his providence, his control.

But, to what degree do we have choices in this? To the degree of our own will which was given us by God through his will for us, and in this who's will is greater? ;)

 

[reba]

Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

 

[Danus]

Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

Good one. The bible is littered with these truths from God. On the one hand we are told of his all encompassing providence and, yet we are also directed to choose him by our own free will. Is he toying with us? or rather is he trying to convince us to give up our will and flow with his? Clearly some will not.

Here is a silly analogy to further explain Calvin.

Calvin, Satan and say....John Wesley are swimming. God is at the shore and asking them to swim to him. It's a long way to the shore and there are currents and high waves, but God says; "Do not fear. It is my desire for you to be with me. I am In charge. Trust in me. I am working on your behalf in this based on your will to be with me here on this shore, and I provide the way."

Satan says; "Forget you I'm swimming this other way. MY WAY. I have no desire to be on that shore with you."

John Wesley says; "I will swim to you lord. I am a strong swimmer. You just watch. I'm coming to you. I have a strong desire to be on that shore with you".

Calvin says, "I will not swim in my own way lord. My desire is to be with you, but I will float to you. I trust that you are in charge."

John Wesley says to Calvin; "You fool! swim man! If you do not make an effort you will drown!

Calvin says to Wesley; "But God said to trust him and to not be afraid. Surly he knows what's best for me and will not let me parish. If I am to be saved then I am so."

Wesley says to Calvin; "Your crazy. These waves and currents will swallow you up without your effort to resist them. You could easily drown or float towards Satan over there.

Calvin says to Wesley; "but if God is in charge then my efforts to get through the waves and currents are not of me.

Both are afraid, but both find solace in Gods word; "Do not fear. It is my desire for you to be with me. I am In charge. Trust in me. I am working on your behalf in this based on your will to be with me here on this shore, and I provide the way." as they move along the high winds, waves, and strong currents. At their most desperate hours Wesley is exhausted he sometimes feels of giving up his efforts, but he pushes on. Calvin, still floating, is terrified.

Finally they reach the shore. Wesley is exhausted. Calvin stand up shaken but alive. Wesley looks at Calvin and says; "I don't understand. You did not swim a stroke yet you'er here with me and God. God why is that? I am worn out. Why is Calvin here with us? I had the faith and you seen me using the faith to get to you. heck I did not know if I'd make it but I pressed on."

God says to Wesley; "Did I not say I was in charge? Did I not say trust me and do not be afraid?"

Wesley says; "Yeah. yeah you did and that's what kept me going in my effort to swim to you, but Calvin, ....he did not swim a stroke."

God says to Wesley; "Who him? That's because he can not swim son."

 

[childeye]

That was pretty good Danus. I am not a student of Wesley or Calvin but I think I get a picture of how they see things. I do believe there are two sides of the cross and two perspectives generally speaking, give or take, accuse and excuse. One is Old Testament and one is New and the wise shop keeper keeps some of both. Or perhaps is it only a stick and a carrot?

 

[Danus]

That was pretty good Danus. I am not a student of Wesley or Calvin but I think I get a picture of how they see things. I do believe there are two sides of the cross and two perspectives generally speaking, give or take, accuse and excuse. One is Old Testament and one is New and the wise shop keeper keeps some of both. Or perhaps is it only a stick and a carrot?

Glad you found value in it.

I think your very right. We are condemned in our sin and excused in our faith. We are wise to know both.