Choice or Chance?

[jasoncran]

Not exactly. A carnal mind does not reason the same and it's desires are carnal even as it's goals are contrary to God. It counts success and prosperity not according to God's ways. Whereas a fool despises correction it cannot be said he can choose to be wise. And I find it highly unlikely that a wise man would trade in his wisdom to become a fool.

They wouldn't. Nor did they ever know Christ. Note they are carnal minded because they seek to make merchandise of people.

really the were cleansed from the pollutions of the world, meaning at one time saved. can a carnal sinner ever be cleansed like that without the work of the cross?

no they cant. i see that wont budge, and neither will i.

we are at an impasse.

 

[childeye]

really the were cleansed from the pollutions of the world, meaning at one time saved. can a carnal sinner ever be cleansed like that without the work of the cross?

no they cant. i see that wont budge, and neither will i.

we are at an impasse.

At an impasse according to what? Your misrepresentation of what you think I say?
Where does this extrapolation come from? When did I ever imply the work on the cross was not the power to cleanse? To what are you refering pertaining to cleansed, a carnal mind? I believe The Holy Spirit was able to minister to whomever God chooses only through a new way, the blood of this Godman who sends the comforter. The comfirmation of a New Covenant. For Jesus swept through all things in both heaven and earth in descending and ascending. His blood for us is his, passing through, higher seeing and now lowest seeing Love. His ascension is the hope of a New heavens and earth because he broke the gates of hell.

 

[childeye]

The love of money and power

Yes as I said, they did not know the love of spiritual things, nor therefore value the things of God.

 

[Danus]

Thought I'd peek back in here. I figured by now I'd have this thing spinning pretty fast on some anti predestination track

However, reba your comment got me thinking. You said. .....

What ever God does, or does not, is Godly. God can only be Godly. We people try to understand God in our human minds/hearts. We cant even come close....

And Jason you asked a while back

i add one more caveat.

God knows our prayers(needs) correct? yes

but sometimes in our needs when we either sin or are in trial. did God orchestrate say 9-11?

DO you guys believe in "divine providence"?

 

[n2thelight]

The choice is, to follow God, or satan!!!!!

Choice!

 

[Mike]

I believe it might be best if everyone re-read the OP and get back to the spirit of it. We all know there are 100 threads on 5 Point Calvinism to debate over. I found the first few pages extremely interesting.

 

[childeye]

=Danus;571976]


DO you guys believe in "divine providence"?

Absolutely even as He is the absolute. food for the stomach and the stomach for food. Whereas if there were no need for charity there would be no charity. In this present age we must discover what Love is through such a view made available from two perspectives. God can swallow up death with life but death cannot swallow up life.

 

[Danus]

The choice is, to follow God, or satan!!!!!

Choice!

But aside from that, meaning only, hold that thought about Good and Evil; ...........when we make choices in life, are we really making choices or are we simply stepping into our own destiny with the choices we think we are making?

This thought dissevers silence in the heart for just a moment.
Our first inclination is to say; "Of course we have choices. I make them every day! I can wear this, or that. I can turn left or right."However...and think about this....are we really making these choices?

1. On one hand we do what we are inclined. It seems like a choice, but there are aspects of detail that lead us to one direction or another. "Why did you choose the red shirt over the blue shirt?.....well, because _________. "

2. Once we have made a "choice" it becomes our reality, it's what we do, or have done, it is our path. There is no alternative to the reality of our choice, because that choice is now past and part of us. When at first the choice was in front of us, we chose and now it is behind us.

When the choice was in front of us we saw it as an option in the future, and as such, the reality of the choice existed in the future, only we had no foreknowledge of it, so to us it seems an option. Could go one way or the other, but once we made the choice, and it becomes a reality, current or past, we only have knowledge of the choice we made, but not the alternative. And since we did not choose the alternative, it is not part of any reality current or past, did that alternative choice actually exist in the first place? ......think hard about this.

I contend that choice is an illusion. No one chooses anything, because the choice and the options of choice, are entertained in the mind only.

You can't make a choice and go back and change it, because once you have made the choice it is reality, and that reality existed before you even made the choice.

You can change corse or change your mind, but that's different. "I chose the red shirt then I changed my choice and chose the blue one".......NO, I chose the red shirt. I can not change the reality of the fact that I chose the red shirt, simply by taking the red shirt off and putting on the blue shirt. I chose the red shirt and the fact that I did, was a fact that I was going to do that before I did it, because I did do that. It was my destiny to chose the red shirt.

However, I changed course of mind, or direction and I later chose the Blue one, which was also my destiny because that's what I did.....So, .....did I even make a choice at all? or did I simply step into my own destiny?

 

[Sinthesis]

Destined to murder?
Choose to murder?

You are not an animal blindly loyal to instinct and stimulus.

 

[jasoncran]

childeye, so god destined the ethopians and sudenese et all to suffer?

yes for the record i do believe at time what some may call divine providence but that again is rare. God does control what Goes on but i think he allows alot more then we think.

remember the argument adam and eve choose sin. well adam did.

 

[Danus]

Destined to murder?
Choose to murder?

You are not an animal blindly loyal to instinct and stimulus.

A fair thought, but your leaving out a critical step when it comes to the choice part. The second part about animal instinct, or reason is a mute point to the topic. lets look at the details.

It's one thing to choose to murder and another thing to actually murder. It does not become murder until someone caries it out and actually kills someone else. At that point the murder and the choice to murder become reality. Can you change it? The reality of the final result that is? .....NO.

If you say; "I'm going to murder someone." You've done nothing, so if you decide not to murder someone it never happened in the first place so a "choice" was never made. If you carry out the murder then it's done. Once it's done you can't change the choice against having done it. How much power to control of the outcome did you really have to begin with.

Before the carrying out of the act, when the decision to kill, or not, was being entertained; The person to be murdered was either going to be, or not going to be, and the future reality of that was known only to God, biblically speaking. No person could actually know of anything but an idea that it might, or might not, happen. So how is murdering someone really the choice of someone else verses the destiny.

If you decide to kill someone and you do, then it was your destiny to do that as it was their destiny to die that way. You don't have the choice because you where predisposed to the act carried out or not. If it happens you did it and you had a reason or predisposition in your head and heart to do it. If it does not happen then you did not, or put another way, you where predisposed to not do it. How does one change their predisposition to not do something if that "thing" never happened?

There may be two possibilities, but only one outcome, and the one outcome is the reality, and because the reality is what it is and no one can alter it, then the reality becomes the destiny, and that destiny was going to be what it was going to be before it came to be. Our lack of knowledge of it does not mean that it did not exist before we knew about it, because God did.

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

“when we make choices in life, are we really making choices or are we simply stepping into our own destiny with the choices we think we are making?..... There may be two possibilities, but only one outcome, and the one outcome is the reality, and because the reality is what it is and no one can alter it, then the reality becomes the destiny, and that destiny was going to be what it was going to be before it came to be. Our lack of knowledge of it does not mean that it did not exist before we knew about it, because God did.â€

And with that you’ve come full circle, right back to where you started.

There was a philosophy in 19th century America called manifest destiny that said that American expansion was both justified and inevitable. True justice for the indigenous races was ignored. A very human philosophy in a supposedly Christian nation.

There are only two choices. Pun intended. You either believe we are free agents under the grace of God or you believe in destiny where the only choice open to us is provided by destiny. And as I said before, if one believes in the idea of destiny, the idea of a God is unnecessary, as is the idea of redemption. Certainly a Bible that constantly presents choices to us couldn’t possibly be relevant. Whatever choices we make is destiny.

The Buddhist idea of karma makes more sense to me than the idea that it’s all predestined before hand to the extent that whatever we think or do is our destiny. The idea of a personal God and the idea of destiny is mutually exclusive. A personal God, at least the one described in the Bible, cares more than destiny allows.

FC

 

[childeye]

There was a man, and He being carnal minded valued worldly things. As his goals were not Godly he was destined accordingly to not do Godly things. All of his choices reflected that. Then one day He met Jesus and he was changed and so was his course of action, for his goals became Godly and his choices reflected that. The Truth sent into a world corrupted by lies is the power of re-creation.

 

[jasoncran]

fc, i was going to bring in manifest destiny. many simply dont know the things we did to the indian in that name of the horrid doctrine.sure the indians werent innoceent they attacked but some of them did want to live in peace and rightfully were on their land FIRST and didnt want squatters either.

 

[Danus]

Danus


And with that you’ve come full circle, right back to where you started.

There was a philosophy in 19th century America called manifest destiny that said that American expansion was both justified and inevitable. True justice for the indigenous races was ignored. A very human philosophy in a supposedly Christian nation.

There are only two choices. Pun intended. You either believe we are free agents under the grace of God or you believe in destiny where the only choice open to us is provided by destiny. And as I said before, if one believes in the idea of destiny, the idea of a God is unnecessary, as is the idea of redemption. Certainly a Bible that constantly presents choices to us couldn’t possibly be relevant. Whatever choices we make is destiny.

The Buddhist idea of karma makes more sense to me than the idea that it’s all predestined before hand to the extent that whatever we think or do is our destiny. The idea of a personal God and the idea of destiny is mutually exclusive. A personal God, at least the one described in the Bible, cares more than destiny allows.

FC

Not at all. 2 points

1. It's not the logical loop you think it is. Rather it's liner. "--- vs O", It would be a logical loop if you interject the idea of choice against destiny. In other words the two can't very well coexist since there is only one outcome of any perceived choice. No one make a choice then experiences the choice and then goes back to change the choice since it's already happened, and time moves forward.

We are consciously aware of the past. We are consciously aware there is a future, but not consciously aware of what that future holds. One thing we do know about the future is that is will come to be. It will manifest in some form. How it will come to be is unknown to us as mankind. If we are the authors of the future then we are able to shape it by our own choice, but we know, or should know, that's not possible either since we can only guess at what it might be.

What we do know is that God knows. He clearly knows the future. This is a quality of the very nature of God as described in the bible. We don't know the future. God does know the future. This fact in the bible does not negate the need for God in one's life if one is predestined. If anything it highlights the need for the a connection to the only one who is the creator, The alpha and omega of the very space in which we live and have the audacity to think we control in any way....by our choice?

2. Your mixing in the idea of Justice, right and wrong with the understanding of choice, chance, destiny....and / or providence, as if to say that right and wrong should be intertwined with the idea of destiny. That leads people to this thought; "If destiny exist outside out ability to control it, then there should be an auto correct to all things good within destiny, and since there isn't then it can't be destiny, but choice because of the suffering. No loving God would allow ones destiny to be one of suffering, and we surly have control in this matter for that which is the greater good".....well do we? Why would God not allow suffering if we are more than willing?...because we are.

Do we know what's good? What's right? What's truth? What is justice? We know of it, or at least we think we do. But if there is a God, as described in the bible then he knows it perfectly, In fact he is it. So why should we think we know or can shape our future to that which is good, especially when you look at where we have come from in our own past efforts in doing this? And, since we are not just, not good, not right, not truth of our own, then why are we so surprised when things we label as bad, or wrong happen, and then say we had the power to control it if it is in fact NOT destiny, but rather our choice? Why then do we seem to choose that which is wrong, if it is in fact NOT our destiny to do so?

God reveals the future to us, and that future exist regardless of us, but it is about us, and we learn of it only when and as it is revealed. It's been said that if you could see your future you could not face it. Why? Because there is nothing you could do to change it. It's not our plan, it's God's plan. We may not like it and we may work against it, and I'd say many do, even some professed Christians. But, why? If God knows the plans he has made for us, plans to prosper us, and we don't know them, but he shows us who are willing, then why do we think we can shape those plans ....that we have no knowledge of? We call that our choice? It's clearly our destiny.

Free will? Well your right. You have the will to be in the will of God, or your own and the future of that already exist, and you will simply step into whatever you are predestined to do.

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

“God reveals the future to us, and that future exist regardless of us, but it is about us, and we learn of it only when and as it is revealed. It's been said that if you could see your future you could not face it. Why? Because there is nothing you could do to change it. It's not our plan, it's God's plan. We may not like it and we may work against it, and I'd say many do, even some professed Christians. But, why? If God knows the plans he has made for us, plans to prosper us, and we don't know them, but he shows us who are willing, then why do we think we can shape those plans ....that we have no knowledge of? We call that our choice? It's clearly our destiny.
Free will? Well your right. You have the will to be in the will of God, or your own and the future of that already exist, and you will simply step into whatever you are predestined to do.â€

Ah, a Calvinist. I was going to ask you where you find destiny in the Bible, but you answered that question. I hadn’t heard of destiny equated with the Calvinist idea of predestination before. But I guess it makes sense. Well, see you around. I don’t argue with Calvinists. FC’s Law.

FC

 

[Danus]

Ah, a Calvinist. I was going to ask you where you find destiny in the Bible, but you answered that question. I hadn’t heard of destiny equated with the Calvinist idea of predestination before. But I guess it makes sense. Well, see you around. I don’t argue with Calvinists. FC’s Law.

FC

I understand.

I appreciate your inpute on this thread FC. Your engagement has been thoughtful, fair, and respectful. This is not an argument BTW. We're just thinking. It's a "thinkument". But, before you go I owe you, and and everyone reading this thread a slight apology for setting up a friendly trap.

I purposely created a false dichotomy in the opening of this thread. I did it to disarm readers, and to neutralize the discussion, to get people thinking rather than clobbering each other with our bibles. It was a hole covered with brush.

I titled this thread "Choice or Chance?", leaving one with an impression that I'm suggesting one or the other, when in fact I'm not suggesting either.

Jason caught it early on, but only because he knows my theology. He tried to warn others. Reba touched on the hidden truth a little, but I sensed she was sniffing at the trap not wanting to walk into it. In any case I've enjoyed the back and forth take care. I'm leaving this one for the wolves.

 

[jasoncran]

I understand.

I appreciate your inpute on this thread FC. Your engagement has been thoughtful, fair, and respectful. This is not an argument BTW. We're just thinking. It's a "thinkument". But, before you go I owe you, and and everyone reading this thread a slight apology for setting up a friendly trap.

I purposely created a false dichotomy in the opening of this thread. I did it to disarm readers, and to neutralize the discussion, to get people thinking rather than clobbering each other with our bibles. It was a hole covered with brush.

I titled this thread "Choice or Chance?", leaving one with an impression that I'm suggesting one or the other, when in fact I'm not suggesting either.

Jason caught it early on, but only because he knows my theology. He tried to warn others. Reba touched on the hidden truth a little, but I sensed she was sniffing at the trap not wanting to walk into it. In any case I've enjoyed the back and forth take care. I'm leaving this one for the wolves.

no thats because i can smell calvinism a few thousand light years away.

i should do a thread on total depravity. it was touched on this morning and its what i thought it was.i have learned from debates here others and logically thought was the five point theology is by simple logic.

 

[Danus]

no thats because i can smell calvinism a few thousand light years away.

i should do a thread on total depravity. it was touched on this morning and its what i thought it was.i have learned from debates here others and logically thought was the five point theology is by simple logic.

I'll be looking for that then. I have a few "points" to add.

 

[Mike]

Danus, you know I don't agree with this doctrine, but your body of work needs to speak for you. I think it's fair to say you weren't trying to "trick" anyone into your line of reasoning, and you don't force this line of thought upon others. I've enjoyed reading along with this thread, and I still think there's good conversation to be had.

I see an overall solid point by FC. Anyone can fixate on particular verses (2 Peter 3:9 :D) to support their position, and disagreement will ensue. But the overall message of redemption seems to be more comfortable with one's choice to be disobedient. Yes, there is original sin, but there is also the depravity of the person unwilling to accept Him until he draws near to Him. Speaking of that...

James 4
'7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you."

This sounds like the willful response of the individual. My point is not to "hand pick" a verse, but to say this seems to me the premise of the Gospel.

I don't want to lend to this turning into just another Calvinist thread. You've offered a spin on this unique to others, and I've found it refreshing.