Choice or Chance?

[jasoncran]

sigh,childeye,

why then does the law allow patients who know that they are sick to refuse treatment. if a person has cancer and has 5 days to live then they can do what i have said. sign a legal document that says if my heart fails then dont revive me as i have a terminal illness.

there are men who know God and refuse that.
God said that there would be consequences. when you say no freewill that implies that we wouldnt knowingly choose hell of heaven if God revealed himself.if that is the case as levi states

the laws would be though cant, not though shall not. men are free to reject god. and they will reap that decision. the debate here isnt on whethers no consequences but rather that theres a choice made by men to reject God when they know him. judas knew who jesus was and rejected him"woe unto that man by whom the son of man is betrayed.. for its better that he was never born!"

God didnt make him do that, he choose to betray the lord for thirty pieces of silver. he died and didnt repent and is in hell. God didnt make him do that. he allowed it and foreknew it would happen.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes all directions we must choose from as it so happens we are alive and God has not left us without instruction. But I do not argue that I could not listen or in pride not hear His voice. I am simply saying to not follow His voice or hear it is the carnal mind subject to the carnal nature, sin, and death. This is not freedom lest I count God's voice treacherous. You are always pointing to choice existing for the sake of responsibility. Yet God is the Love that makes a man care about others. You talk of Him as an option of man's.

Deavonreye may misunderstand now, but it is my prayer that devonreye does see even because I believe Devonreye has an issue with religion. Look at Saul who became Paul, certainly he had heard the Gospel and misunderstood. But yet God turned him even though he was at one time an enemy to the Gospel. I do not ignore this. Do you honestly think Paul would say he chose, or rather he gained sight by God's grace for God's purpose?

ah yes when all else fails fall back to the typical calvin paul had no choice. sheesh. what of Jonah. he didnt change his tune even in the whale(big fish) and still had hate for the assyrians. God intervened but it was like he really changed, he begrudgenly went to the city of niveneh. yes God soften hearts but some heart wont change and only God knows when they wont

heres a true story i know the son and mother and grandmother of this deceased child.

meet colton. he was in a sunday service. the pastor was told to state to the church this" THERE IS A PERSON HERE WHO NEEDS TO GET SAVED FOR IN FOUR DAYS YOU SHALL DIE.." colton came forward and repented. he died four days later.,why then if there was no choice for him to come forward was that warning issued? morality IMPLIES CHOICES TO REFUSE AND TO ACCEPT THE LAWS.

 

[childeye]

sigh,childeye,

why then does the law allow patients who know that they are sick to refuse treatment. if a person has cancer and has 5 days to live then they can do what i have said. sign a legal document that says if my heart fails then dont revive me as i have a terminal illness.

there are men who know God and refuse that.
God said that there would be consequences. when you say no freewill that implies that we wouldnt knowingly choose hell of heaven if God revealed himself.if that is the case as levi states

the laws would be though cant, not though shall not. men are free to reject god. and they will reap that decision. the debate here isnt on whethers no consequences but rather that theres a choice made by men to reject God when they know him. judas knew who jesus was and rejected him"woe unto that man by whom the son of man is betrayed.. for its better that he was never born!"

God didnt make him do that, he choose to betray the lord for thirty pieces of silver. he died and didnt repent and is in hell. God didnt make him do that. he allowed it and foreknew it would happen.

Frankly speaking Jasoncran, in my view your words are constantly a contradiction. Look at this: why then does the law allow patients who know that they are sick to refuse treatment?

I can only shake my head at the mindset that asks this. Not because I think you are stupid or anything like that but because it is plain to see there is misunderstanding. I never said we don't choose moraly. I said we don't choose freely. I am saying there is lust of the flesh influencing our choice to sin and Love influencing our choice to not sin.

Please note, that the law is meant to serve man. The laws of God first and foremost says Love God with all heart mind and soul. There is no option lest you count death an option. But even this option would not exist without God first having given us life. Quite simply we are arguing semantics because we define freewill differently and see choice from two different perspectives. Moraly speaking, I believe in determinism which means moral choices are necessary not voluntary, since dead people can't volunteer anything moral or immoral and living people must volunteer something moral or immoral.

I would state it is a fact that the brain is calculating at all times except not as much when asleep. Every second a decision is being made whether to do this or not do that. Look at the highway how everyone stays in their lanes moment by moment and watches out for themselves and one another. The caring about how we affect one another is what Love does. Not like a puppet as some would envision but like a Kingdom of God or a body of Christ. So why begrudge me awarding the source of goodness to God? Now if there is one sick man who is on the highway without Love as his prime directive why begrudge me awarding the reason to a carnal mindset?

The question is therefore, can a man knowingly see the Truth of God and deny it without the lust of the flesh and a carnal mindset being the reason the man denies the Truth? I think Danus stated this quite clearly. I believe there is always a moral impetus or there must be an immoral impetus. There must be light or there must be darkness. Therefore the fact we are saved by mercy is proof we are not free in our wills lest God save us. It is this belief that we are free in our sin that is a backward thinking. We are free when we don't sin, and I believe God leaves us in sin by giving us over to the flesh until we understand that He is Who makes us good. Hence when Paul asks God to take away the messenger of Satan God says, "My grace is sufficient for thee".

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;571376] morality IMPLIES CHOICES TO REFUSE AND TO ACCEPT THE LAWS.

This is the exact same statement my atheist humanist Uncle uses to deny God as our morality. Freewill is the foundational argument for unbelief, for it denies the necessity of Love for goodness at the foundation of it's premise. It is the knowledge of good and evil. And such knowledge presumes that with such knowledge one can choose between the two.

 

[reba]

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Was the whole story of Jacob's son Joseph planed by God or did God just use what man did?

 

[jasoncran]

This is the exact same statement my atheist humanist Uncle uses to deny God as our morality. Freewill is the foundational argument for unbelief, for it denies the necessity of Love for goodness at the foundation of it's premise. It is the knowledge of good and evil. And such knowledge presumes that with such knowledge one can choose between the two.

by thinking, you assume that without God , man can do NO good at all. that all athiests and sinners are devils incarnate?who says that

i didnt come to christ because i loved him after i heard of the cross. IT WAS IN sheer desperation in that he was the only one who could help me. do you love the the lifeguard that reaches to you and says take my raft and pulls you safety, or after the fact that he saved you.

the later is the case , you then realise how bad it was and become thankful.


then as time goes on you decide well then christ isnt so bad and start listening to him.i didnt stop stealing all at once. Gods word convicted me of that and a year later i stopped.this is a lengthy testimony and i have thrown bits and pieces at you all since i have been here.

 

[Former Christian]

Reba

Too many Christians see Romans 9-11 as still talking about Justification. That it is God who chooses who is to be Justified and we don’t have anything to do with it except to go along with the program. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. And to me that’s a problem. Because I see the part about Justification as ending at the end of chapter 8. In 9-11 it’s talking about the mystery of the Gentiles becoming a part of Justification. And the argument then becomes, that if God wants the Gentiles to be a part of Justification, it’s up to God. And this,

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Is concluded by this,

Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Referring to Jew and Gentile in Christ. The whole point of 9-11. Proving that this is true,

Romans 11:
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

There’s nothing in Romans 9-11 that says physical Israel is the future. Nor anything that says we haven’t a choice about whether or not we become a part of God’s plan in Christ. The practice of interpretation is a blinding influence on us all. Through the practice the Bible can mean anything. It’s why I’m adamant in my opposition to the practice, in myself as well as in others. If the Bible can only be understood through the practice of interpretation, then it’s the writings of men, and that’s all it is. Certainly not anything Divine that can be understood according to human thinking, whether determined historically or individually.

And Reba, don’t think I’m writing against you here. The intention was to support what you are saying. That God used what man did. I hope it came out right.

FC

 

[reba]

And Reba, don’t think I’m writing against you here. The intention was to support what you are saying. That God used what man did. I hope it came out right.

I believe God had/has a plan. I believe God set up Joseph, and on down the time line to Moses' Pharaoh, and beyond. Lets just say the folks of the Scriptures. I think God forced Pharaoh i believe the scripture words are God 'hardened his heart'

.Exo 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

This to me shows the direct hand of God in/on/about Pharaoh(s).

Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

I dont think my simple life is under the same type of the hand of God. Although i can look back and see His mighty hand holding me over and over.

Maybe if i had a better vocabulary/education i could make this more clear. All ya get this old grandma....

 

[childeye]

I believe God had/has a plan. I believe God set up Joseph, and on down the time line to Moses' Pharaoh, and beyond. Lets just say the folks of the Scriptures. I think God forced Pharaoh i believe the scripture words are God 'hardened his heart'

.Exo 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

This to me shows the direct hand of God in/on/about Pharaoh(s).

Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

I dont think my simple life is under the same type of the hand of God. Although i can look back and see His mighty hand holding me over and over.

Maybe if i had a better vocabulary/education i could make this more clear. All ya get this old grandma....

Judging from your picture you don't look so Old.

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;571418]by thinking, you assume that without God , man can do NO good at all. that all athiests and sinners are devils incarnate?who says that

I do believe without Love mankind can only serve the flesh.

i didnt come to christ because i loved him after i heard of the cross. IT WAS IN sheer desperation in that he was the only one who could help me.

Same as me.

do you love the the lifeguard that reaches to you and says take my raft and pulls you safety, or after the fact that he saved you.

After the fact when we realize do we become thankful.

then as time goes on you decide well then christ isnt so bad and start listening to him.i didnt stop stealing all at once. Gods word convicted me of that and a year later i stopped.this is a lengthy testimony and i have thrown bits and pieces at you all since i have been here.

This is no different than most testimonies. I do not see where I have said anything to discount your testimony. It is valid and atypical.

 

[jasoncran]

I do believe without Love mankind can only serve the flesh.

Same as me.

After the fact when we realize do we become thankful.



This is no different than most testimonies. I do not see where I have said anything to discount your testimony. It is valid and atypical.

love from whom is the question? i never denied God loves love only disagree with the fact that man can reject said act. its like this

you have a son or daughter on drugs and you try to get them to stop they dont or wont and die later. you cant be held for thier actions. you told them that their actions would kill them they choose to ignore you.

God didnt make me cry out.he may have allowed circumistances as he set up the laws of sowing and reaping since the dawn of sin. but he neither made me repent.

 

[childeye]

love from whom is the question? i never denied God loves love only disagree with the fact that man can reject said act. its like this

you have a son or daughter on drugs and you try to get them to stop they dont or wont and die later. you cant be held for thier actions. you told them that their actions would kill them they choose to ignore you.

God didnt make me cry out.he may have allowed circumistances as he set up the laws of sowing and reaping since the dawn of sin. but he neither made me repent.

Scripture says that it is the goodness of God that draws men to repentance. And I take that to mean we are drawn to the light by the hope of His goodness toward us. However there exists a light also inside of man that understands what goodness is. This is the residue of God's Word in us from when we were created and what has been corrupted through the belief in a false image of god. We understand Love, because who we are as sentient beings is the Life that God breathed into us when we were created. It is therefore His Word in the Christ through the Gospel that not only calls to us but also His Word in us that answers the call. My sheep know me and I know them.

Whatever circumstances that have sent us into the darkness, they have been foreseen and even foreordained unto the purpose of proving to all of heaven and earth that God is Holy and Love is eternal. Reba is right, God has a plan. And you are right, God will turn our unbelief into his glory.

We do not like seeing evil present in man, and we do not like that here in the flesh is where God has decided to allow and destroy vanity once and for all. But we must as Job did, suffer for the sake of making an everlasting point. And so like Job, Our sole obligation is to not curse God no matter what befalls us. For this life we know is not the Life that God intends for us in the end, but we must endure in faith to see that.

 

[Former Christian]

Reba

Exodus 1:
8 ¶ Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:
10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.
11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

Ex 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Ex 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.


Doesn’t seem to me as if God had to do much to harden Pharoah’s heart.


Ex 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Ex 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.


And Jehovah does, as you say, give a reason for hardening Pharaoh’s heart,

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

(above in KJV)



Proverbs 8:
12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power.
15 By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just
(NIV)


FC

 

[jasoncran]

Scripture says that it is the goodness of God that draws men to repentance. And I take that to mean we are drawn to the light by the hope of His goodness toward us. However there exists a light also inside of man that understands what goodness is. This is the residue of God's Word in us from when we were created and what has been corrupted through the belief in a false image of god. We understand Love, because who we are as sentient beings is the Life that God breathed into us when we were created. It is therefore His Word in the Christ through the Gospel that not only calls to us but also His Word in us that answers the call. My sheep know me and I know them.

Whatever circumstances that have sent us into the darkness, they have been foreseen and even foreordained unto the purpose of proving to all of heaven and earth that God is Holy and Love is eternal. Reba is right, God has a plan. And you are right, God will turn our unbelief into his glory.

We do not like seeing evil present in man, and we do not like that here in the flesh is where God has decided to allow and destroy vanity once and for all. But we must as Job did, suffer for the sake of making an everlasting point. And so like Job, Our sole obligation is to not curse God no matter what befalls us. For this life we know is not the Life that God intends for us in the end, but we must endure in faith to see that.

who said that i curse god for all the evil., trust me if i wanted to ge jaded with 9-11 and the war on terror i could. such as" if its such a big war why is only 4.5% of the population enganged in it?"

but i wont go there and then theres this.

that man loved darkness more than the light. for if they came to the light they works would be reproved..

loved that sin more then God.

 

[mondar]

I believe God had/has a plan. I believe God set up Joseph, and on down the time line to Moses' Pharaoh, and beyond. Lets just say the folks of the Scriptures. I think God forced Pharaoh i believe the scripture words are God 'hardened his heart'

.Exo 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

This to me shows the direct hand of God in/on/about Pharaoh(s).

Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

I dont think my simple life is under the same type of the hand of God. Although i can look back and see His mighty hand holding me over and over.

Maybe if i had a better vocabulary/education i could make this more clear. All ya get this old grandma....

reba, I think we agree and want to thank you for speaking up. I would make one clarification. I guess I am reacting to your sentence....
"I think God forced Pharaoh i believe the scripture words are God 'hardened his heart'
What I am talking about is the method God used to harden Pharaoh's heart and I would like to clarify how God did the hardening. My concern is that some will see the decree of God for evil and good as the same kind of action by God. I do not think Gods decree of evil is equal to his decree of righteousness. In salvation, God is changing natures. He to regenerates us and makes those whom he chose capable of faith. God then is totally responsible for the righteousness that results. When he hardens, or reprobates Pharaoh, he did not have to change his nature to make his nature more evil. Pharaoh already had a nature that was evil (as we all do). The action of God by which he hardened Pharaoh's heart is when he "raised thee up." God is responsible for the good that comes from his change of our natures to the "new man" or the new nature, but God is not responsible for the Pharaoh's actions when he raised him up. God did not hep Pharaoh defy God's rule. God gave Pharaoh power and authority, but then he judged Pharaoh for the evil way in which he used this power and authority.

reba, I just wanted to make that comment. I am going to apologize in advance if I am not around to continue any conversation. I am not trying to be disrespectful or rude, but I rarely come here. You might want to leave me a PM if you want me to read a reply.

 

[reba]

What ever God does, or does not, is Godly. God can only be Godly. We people try to understand God in our human minds/hearts. We cant even come close....

 

[childeye]

who said that i curse god for all the evil., trust me if i wanted to ge jaded with 9-11 and the war on terror i could. such as" if its such a big war why is only 4.5% of the population enganged in it?"

but i wont go there and then theres this.

that man loved darkness more than the light. for if they came to the light they works would be reproved..

loved that sin more then God.

No one said you curse God, only that the devil desires we do so. As for those who Love darkness more than light, I think the scripture speaks for itself. Certainly those who turn away from the light are of a carnal mind, for only fools despise correction but the wise are most thankful for it.

 

[jasoncran]

No one said you curse God, only that the devil desires we do so. As for those who Love darkness more than light, I think the scripture speaks for itself. Certainly those who turn away from the light are of a carnal mind, for only fools despise correction but the wise are most thankful for it.

lol but they have a choice to be fools per that statement! why in the world would one who knew christ do what peter said here in 2 peter 2?


turn themselves into false prophets , and the old well they didnt know the lord. and here he said that they did.

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;571896]lol but they have a choice to be fools per that statement!

Not exactly. A carnal mind does not reason the same and it's desires are carnal even as it's goals are contrary to God. It counts success and prosperity not according to God's ways. Whereas a fool despises correction it cannot be said he can choose to be wise. And I find it highly unlikely that a wise man would trade in his wisdom to become a fool.

why in the world would one who knew christ do what peter said here in 2 peter 2?
turn themselves into false prophets , and the old well they didnt know the lord. and here he said that they did.

They wouldn't. Nor did they ever know Christ. Note they are carnal minded because they seek to make merchandise of people.

 

[reba]

turn themselves into false prophets

The love of money and power