Christ’s words vs. Paul’s words?

[AVBunyan]

I’ve seen these statements often…â€ÂJudge Paul by Christ – not Christ by Paul.†Or…â€ÂI take Christ’s words over Paul’s.†And more….

The above quotes tell me several things about folks who make such “pious†statements.

Now I understand some folks just don’t understand and I have grace here.

1. It appears they do not believe all scripture is equal.
I thought every word of God is pure and all scripture is given by inspiration.

2. It appears that they do not believe that Paul’s words were actually Christ’s words.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

3. It appears that these folks think they sound more spiritual by stating they “follow Christ’s words†while we do not when in fact they don’t keep all of Christ’s commandments anyway. Compare Matt. 28:20 with Matt. 23:1-3. Yes, Jesus just told them to keep the law there – do you? You like to quote Matt. 28:20 don’t you?

4. They don’t recognize advance revelation when they see it. See #2

5. It appears that these folks would rather be a Jew under the law instead of a regenerated saint in the body of Christ.

6. These folks accuse us, who follow Paul, that we do not take heed to Christ’s words.

7. It appears that these folks would rather “do things†to get saved or become spiritual instead of walking worthy of the vocation wherewith they have been called.

Bottom line – Christ gave Paul the latest instructions. Only Paul said (word of God)…
2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

You best consider what God told you to consider. You never know – if you start with Paul then you finally just might understand:

1. Who Christ really is and what he actually came to earth for.
2. Just what true salvation really is.
3. How to live that salvation.
4. The difference between Israel and the body of Christ.

BTW - I read and believe those "red letters" to be just inspired as Paul's and all others in the book.

God bless

 

[Georges]

BTW - I read and believe those "red letters" to be just inspired as Paul's and all others in the book.

God bless

Glad too see they measure up to Paul's standard..... :D

 

[Darrell dunn]

If you find conflict with any two or more scripture.

YOU ARE THE ONE WITH PROBLEMS NOT GOD'S WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THERE IS ONLY ONE ABSOLUTE TRUTH AND ALL ELSE IS A LIE.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

....I thought every word of God is pure and all scripture is given by inspiration...

Excellent post AVBunyan!!

Fact: Truth can not contradict truth!

I have noticed a bit of anti-Paul posts on several different boards. One that I used to frequent has started an anti-James thread. I have been giving some thought on how to address the issue, and I thank God that He used you to do it!

Just another attempt of the devil to keep us from the Word of God. It is something that needs to be prayed over (or against). The weaker brethren get caught up in such things, and need to be set free.

You know, the devil does not attack things that do not worry him. :smt011
If he truly thought the Word of God was somehow contradictory, or powerless, he would not be working so hard to try to drive a wedge between us and God.
The body of Christ must be getting real good with the sword of the Spirit, and cutting down some strongholds with it.

It kind of reminds me of Glenda's words to Dorothy to keep tight in those ruby red slippers. The witch would not want them so bad if there were not some power in them.

 

[francisdesales]

You best consider what God told you to consider. You never know – if you start with Paul then you finally just might understand:

1. Who Christ really is and what he actually came to earth for.
2. Just what true salvation really is.
3. How to live that salvation.
4. The difference between Israel and the body of Christ.

This begs the question: Why IS Paul being compared to Jesus Christ? Paul is no better than James or Peter or John, and certainly not better than the Gospels. Who ever came up with this "canon within a canon" idea? If you read something in Paul that you think doesn't match what Christ or James or John says, then your interpretation is WRONG. We don't use Paul to determine what Jesus says!

Regards

 

[mutzrein]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

And regarding scripture in general, the only inconsistency I find is the premise upon which the reader stands. :wink:

 

[xicali]

The sound words of Jesus Christ on the lips of Paul

Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 1:13

The Sound words or sound teachings for the sons of God where given to Paul under revelation and not under inspiration.

"And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth" Acts 22:14

"I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee" Acts 26:16

"I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 12:1

Paul learned a hidden knowledge that was kept secret from the foundation of the world for "...he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter [up to that time]"
2 Corinthians 12:4

These word had never left paradise until Jesus appear to Paul several times during his ministry, and was able to give us The gospel of Grace.

"we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world [for his world or his people] unto our glory... " 1 Cor 2:7

 

[TanNinety]

2 Timothy 1:15 As you know, all the Christians who came here from the province of Asia have deserted me;

The above are paul's own words about how the church in asia has rejected him.

Revelation 2:1"Write this letter to the angel of* the church in Ephesus. This is the message from the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand, the one who walks among the seven gold lampstands 2 "I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don't tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars.

The above in revelation, are the words of Jesus to the church in Ephesus which is in Asia, that rejected paul (in his own words which Jesus is praising) that they have found the liars and the called out the claims of people who say they are apostles and are NOT.

Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.

I wonder where this thirteenth apostle paul fits in?

 

[Georges]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

And regarding scripture in general, the only inconsistency I find is the premise upon which the reader stands. :wink:

Mutz....you haven't read the pdf yet I sent did you....? You couldn't have...Every Chapter proves Paul false....easily....and it uses the Torah, Jesus, James, John and Jude to do it....it is not the Gospel that Jesus preached....just because he uses the name of Christ doesn't mean the same message is preached....

 

[Georges]

2 Timothy 1:15 As you know, all the Christians who came here from the province of Asia have deserted me;

The above are paul's own words about how the church in asia has rejected him.
[quote:66c10]Revelation 2:1"Write this letter to the angel of* the church in Ephesus. This is the message from the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand, the one who walks among the seven gold lampstands 2 "I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don't tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars.

The above in revelation, are the words of Jesus to the church in Ephesus which is in Asia, that rejected paul (in his own words which Jesus is praising) that they have found the liars and the called out the claims of people who say they are apostles and are NOT.

Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.

I wonder where this thirteenth apostle paul fits in?[/quote:66c10]

Bravo....James also aludes to the trial of Paul at Ephesus....Jesus commends the Church at Ephesus for rejecting the false teacher...

Tan...did I send you the pdf concerning Jesus Words Only...? I can't remember...this is just a little bit of the information in the pdf book.

 

[TanNinety]

These word had never left paradise until Jesus appear to Paul several times during his ministry, and was able to give us The gospel of Grace.

Acts 1:10-12 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Well Acts seems to portray that Jesus' return would be as dramatic as His ascenstion. Didn't know He was making special appearances for paul?

What gospel was Jesus preaching? ..why is there any need for another gospel? ..don't tell me Jesus preached the gospel of grace because He didn't.

Jesus showed up and the blind could see. Paul meets Jesus and he gets blind? Hmmm.

 

[xicali]

These word had never left paradise until Jesus appear to Paul several times during his ministry, and was able to give us The gospel of Grace.

Acts 1:10-12 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Well Acts seems to portray that Jesus' return would be as dramatic as His ascenstion. Didn't know He was making special appearances for paul?

What gospel was Jesus preaching? ..why is there any need for another gospel? ..don't tell me Jesus preached the gospel of grace because He didn't.

Jesus showed up and the blind could see. Paul meets Jesus and he gets blind? Hmmm.

Wow having learned so much!

 

[mutzrein]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

And regarding scripture in general, the only inconsistency I find is the premise upon which the reader stands. :wink:

Mutz....you haven't read the pdf yet I sent did you....? You couldn't have...Every Chapter proves Paul false....easily....and it uses the Torah, Jesus, James, John and Jude to do it....it is not the Gospel that Jesus preached....just because he uses the name of Christ doesn't mean the same message is preached....

No I haven't read any PDF from you. Where did you send it?

Actually I have never read anything that PROVES Paul false but since that is what you say the document does, I would say it is based on a false premise. HOWEVER - I am prepared to look at it if you would like to reciprocate with a PDF I have to offer.

 

[TanNinety]

Tan...did I send you the pdf concerning Jesus Words Only...? I can't remember...this is just a little bit of the information in the pdf book.

Yes you did George. I even read a couple of chapters, but then decided to put paul through my own litmus test through the holy spirit so I dont read any pre-conceived ideas into it. So far, he is border line the very false prophet we need to be looking out for. This might seem like paranoia but I cant deny what the holy spirit is leading me to.

Did Jesus tell paul why He visited paul immidiately or after paul went to damascus?

Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

In chapter 22 paul had to wait till he went to damascus to figure out what he was to do. But in chapter 26 Jesus has longer dialogue with him on the road itself before he gets to damascus about what he is to do.

Jesus seems to have wasted 3 and 1/2 years with the disciples teaching them the ways of our God, but for paul all it took was one *zap* in the desert. :-?

 

[Georges]

Tan...did I send you the pdf concerning Jesus Words Only...? I can't remember...this is just a little bit of the information in the pdf book.

Yes you did George. I even read a couple of chapters, but then decided to put paul through my own litmus test through the holy spirit so I dont read any pre-conceived ideas into it. So far, he is border line the very false prophet we need to be looking out for. This might seem like paranoia but I cant deny what the holy spirit is leading me to.

Did Jesus tell paul why He visited paul immidiately or after paul went to damascus?

Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

[quote:1300e]Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

In chapter 22 paul had to wait till he went to damascus to figure out what he was to do. But in chapter 26 Jesus has longer dialogue with him on the road itself before he gets to damascus about what he is to do.

Jesus seems to have wasted 3 and 1/2 years with the disciples teaching them the ways of our God, but for paul all it took was one *zap* in the desert. :-?[/quote:1300e]

Well when you have your own opinion formed (and so far it is very close to the pdf) then read the pdf....It puts all of that in a nice neat order...I'm telling you it will knock you socks off....

 

[jgredline]

Tan...did I send you the pdf concerning Jesus Words Only...? I can't remember...this is just a little bit of the information in the pdf book.

Yes you did George. I even read a couple of chapters, but then decided to put paul through my own litmus test through the holy spirit so I dont read any pre-conceived ideas into it. So far, he is border line the very false prophet we need to be looking out for. This might seem like paranoia but I cant deny what the holy spirit is leading me to.

Tan
Hate top be the bearer of bad news, buts its not the holy spirit speaking to you but the spirit of the antiChrist. In other words your listening to the devil. The Holy spirit will not steer you away from his inspired text.

 

[AVBunyan]

Excellent post AVBunyan!!
I have noticed a bit of anti-Paul posts on several different boards.

It kind of reminds me of Glenda's words to Dorothy to keep tight in those ruby red slippers. The witch would not want them so bad if there were not some power in them.

Thanks Gabby -

BTW - I like the analogy :-D

God bless 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

Thanks Mutz - OK a challenge (friendly challenge)
Show me from scripture Christ's message to the Jews regarding himself while on earth.

There is reasoing to my madness :-D

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

1. This begs the question: Why IS Paul being compared to Jesus Christ? 2. Paul is no better than James or Peter or John, and certainly not better than the Gospels.
3. If you read something in Paul that you think doesn't match what Christ or James or John says, then your interpretation is WRONG.
4. We don't use Paul to determine what Jesus says!Regards

1. Because many people say that we are to follow Christ's words over Paul's/

2. Amen - all the same in standing.

3. We differ here - many doctrines from different ages do not match - that does not make any wrong - just need to put them where they belong to whom they belong to - for example:

a. OT - sacrifice a lamb
Paul - the Lamb has been sacrificed

b. OT - can't eat catfish
Paul - eat whatever you want - I TIm. 4:4

c. Gospels - before Christ died - Matt 6:14-15 You don't forgive - the Father will not forgive you
Paul - we have forgivenss now (Eph. 1:7) and it is not based upon our forgiving others (Eph. 4:32)

d. Gospels - the message? Believe that Jesus was who he said he was (Messiah/Son of God) John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Paul - Believe Chirst died for your sins, was buried, raised, etc.

e. OT - walk by your faith Hab 2:4 but the just shall live by his faith.
Paul - live by the faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20)

f. OT - Abraham looked for a city Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. - Rev. 21
Paul - we look for Christ Col. 3:1 - body of Christ is nto looking for a city

g. Gospels - some folks mansions prepared for them (John 14:1-4; Rev. 21; Heb. 11:10)
Paul/body of Christ - seated in heavenly places in Christ Eph. 1:3, 20, 2:6; 3:10

There are many more "differences" - What that means is that all scripture is for you but not all to you. Ex. The OT law was to Israel - The OT law is for us to learn about God and how God did things.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,

Find out what is doctrinally to you and then you can take doctrine that was meant for other ages and make application to you but don't take doctrine meant for others in other ages (past or future)and then make that doctrine for you today.

God bless 8-)

 

[francisdesales]

We differ here - many doctrines from different ages do not match - that does not make any wrong - just need to put them where they belong to whom they belong to - for example:

You then go on to give examples comparing the OT to the NT dispensations...

Your examples are red herrings. They have nothing to do with comparing Paul with Jesus with Peter with James. We are speaking of the New Covenant, the New Testament, the fulfillment of the Law brought out by Christ. Thus, Paul and James SHOULD agree with Jesus Christ. And of course, the OT will be incomplete when compared to the Law of Love - the OT is the "shadow of the good things to come".

Thus, when formulating a systematic theology, one should take into account ALL authors of the New Testament, not form a canon within a canon by placing the work of Paul over and above Christ's teachings. Paul would certainly not have it that way.

Regards