Christ’s words vs. Paul’s words?

[Georges]

Tan...did I send you the pdf concerning Jesus Words Only...? I can't remember...this is just a little bit of the information in the pdf book.

Yes you did George. I even read a couple of chapters, but then decided to put paul through my own litmus test through the holy spirit so I dont read any pre-conceived ideas into it. So far, he is border line the very false prophet we need to be looking out for. This might seem like paranoia but I cant deny what the holy spirit is leading me to.

Tan
Hate top be the bearer of bad news, buts its not the holy spirit speaking to you but the spirit of the antiChrist. In other words your listening to the devil. The Holy spirit will not steer you away from his inspired text.

Tan you read it and be your own judge.....

 

[AVBunyan]

You then go on to give examples comparing the OT to the NT dispensations...Your examples are red herrings. Paul would certainly not have it that way. Regards

You are misunderstanding completely what I am trying to point out.

Ths question -

Are you going to live by the latest instructions that Christ gave by Paul or stay stuck in a Jewish/earthly kngdom message meant for Jews who are destined for an earthly kingdom or...

Move on to where the body of Christ is destined for and the truths associated with the body of Christ?

Are you a Jew in the kingdom or a regenerated saint int he body of Christ? Which is it - can't be both - they are separate.

God bless

 

[Georges]

Here is where AV is wrong....

1. This begs the question: Why IS Paul being compared to Jesus Christ? 2. Paul is no better than James or Peter or John, and certainly not better than the Gospels.
3. If you read something in Paul that you think doesn't match what Christ or James or John says, then your interpretation is WRONG.
4. We don't use Paul to determine what Jesus says!Regards

1. Because many people say that we are to follow Christ's words over Paul's/

How many out in forumland think Paul's words supercede Jesus'? Paul teaches contra to Jesus....Jesus warns about men such as Paul as workers of Negators of the Law.....

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus is directely addressing Paul...."iniquity" = anomia = Negation of the Torah.....For AV...that means making the Torah of no effect.

2. Amen - all the same in standing.

Paul is substandard because he is not an official Apostle....
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Christ commends the Ephesians for ferreting out Paul and dismissing him...That is why everyone in Asia turned their back on Paul...
3. We differ here - many doctrines from different ages do not match - that does not make any wrong - just need to put them where they belong to whom they belong to - for example:

a. OT - sacrifice a lamb
Paul - the Lamb has been sacrificed


b. OT - can't eat catfish
Paul - eat whatever you want - I TIm. 4:4

Probably the most glaring example of what Jesus was talking about in Mat 7:23...Paul was teaching what you claimed...and that is teaching the Torah is negated....

What did Jesus say? Remember AV, Revelation was written 30 years post Paul....3 times Jesus addresses the "Food" issue....

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Jesus is addressing the Ephesians early in Rev Chap 2...the same people who tested the false prophet and found him to be a liar....

Hmm...Paul teaches "OK to eat all food", Jesus says "Not OK" 3 times in Revelation. Who ya gonna believe...?


c. Gospels - before Christ died - Matt 6:14-15 You don't forgive - the Father will not forgive you

Correct...

Paul - we have forgivenss now (Eph. 1:7) and it is not based upon our forgiving others (Eph. 4:32)

Again, Paul supercedes Jesus?

d. Gospels - the message? Believe that Jesus was who he said he was (Messiah/Son of God) John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If you believe in Christ, you will follow him....that is you will do the will of his Father as he had done...that is what saves you...

Paul - Believe Chirst died for your sins, was buried, raised, etc.

Sorry...I'll go with Jesus on that....Believe that Jesus was found righteous enough to be raised...as an example of how every righteous person "who attempts faithfully" who keeps Torah will also be raised (to enter the Messianic Kingdom). Faith and Works...as put forth by Jesus, James, and especially Jesus in the book of Revelation (again written well after Paul).

No less than 14 times in the book of Revelation is it stressed that "Works" matter.....How many times is faith mentioned? 3 times. How many times in a "salvation by faith alone" in Revelation? 0 times....

Getting the picture yet?


e. OT - walk by your faith Hab 2:4 but the just shall live by his faith.

This is an easy one.....Paul uses the Hebrew Septuigent for his translations and this is one of several where he makes the mistake of not using the Hebrew Tanach. The Septuigent translation reads "faith". The Hebrew reads "faithfulness"....as in Torah observence...

Paul - live by the faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20)

The faith of Christ was Torah obedience in love for Jehovah....

f. OT - Abraham looked for a city Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. - Rev. 21
Paul - we look for Christ Col. 3:1 - body of Christ is nto looking for a city

Geez....the city is New Jerusalem....every believer is looking for that...

g. Gospels - some folks mansions prepared for them (John 14:1-4; Rev. 21; Heb. 11:10)
Paul/body of Christ - seated in heavenly places in Christ Eph. 1:3, 20, 2:6; 3:10

Point makes no sense....

There are many more "differences" - What that means is that all scripture is for you but not all to you. Ex. The OT law was to Israel - The OT law is for us to learn about God and how God did things.

Makes no sense....

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,

It's talking about OT.....not NT.....NT wasn't formed yet....

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,

Find out what is doctrinally to you and then you can take doctrine that was meant for other ages and make application to you but don't take doctrine meant for others in other ages (past or future)and then make that doctrine for you today.

Just as Paul taught....and that is false.....Paul taught Torah negation...Jesus said it would last forever....who is the Liar?

God bless 8-)

Too easy AV.......

Paul supercedes Jesus? that is laughable....or sad....both I guess.

 

[Lewis]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

And regarding scripture in general, the only inconsistency I find is the premise upon which the reader stands. :wink:

Mutz....you haven't read the pdf yet I sent did you....? You couldn't have...Every Chapter proves Paul false....easily....and it uses the Torah, Jesus, James, John and Jude to do it....it is not the Gospel that Jesus preached....just because he uses the name of Christ doesn't mean the same message is preached....

George I wish you would not be sending these PDF's to people against Paul or even offering it to people on this site. Because you are undermining the Bible by doing this. Just because you do not believe in Paul, do not at all via this board try to change or cast doubt in their minds about Paul. I respect you George, I really do, and I think you have good knowledge, but you are wrong about Paul. His is the inspired Word of Christ, who personally converted Paul, and continued to give Paul instructions for the rest of Pauls life.

 

[AVBunyan]

I respect you George, I really do, and I think you have good knowledge, but you are wrong about Paul. His is the inspired Word of Christ, who personally converted Paul, and continued to give Paul instructions for the rest of Pauls life.

I've said all along the real issue is authority - What is one's final authority.

If one's final authority is one source - the Bible (I believe the AV) then 90% of these discussions would cease. The reason being is the Bible says all scripture is given by inspiration so it means what it says and it says what it means. The problem is many don't really believe what the Bible says so out come the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Lexicons, the church Fathers, tradition, USAA Newsaper and all the rest of the conflicting "authorities".

The scriptures confirm basically what you said Lewis..."His is the inspired Word of Christ, who personally converted Paul, and continued to give Paul instructions for the rest of Pauls life." The scriptures bear witness to this - case closed...unless...unless...one doesn't believe what he holds in his hands is final on the matter.

My life is simple - I take a King James Bible and read it - I have to believe what it says because I believe it to be the word of God and if I do not agree with it then I will just have to study it more and then line my beliefs and life up with it not it with me. :o

God bless 8-)

 

[francisdesales]

You then go on to give examples comparing the OT to the NT dispensations...Your examples are red herrings. Paul would certainly not have it that way. Regards

You are misunderstanding completely what I am trying to point out.

Ths question -

Are you going to live by the latest instructions that Christ gave by Paul or stay stuck in a Jewish/earthly kngdom message meant for Jews who are destined for an earthly kingdom or...

Move on to where the body of Christ is destined for and the truths associated with the body of Christ?

Are you a Jew in the kingdom or a regenerated saint int he body of Christ? Which is it - can't be both - they are separate.

God bless

Ah, now that I have read some other posts, I see what is going on. I hadn't realized that there are "anti-Paul" people who are Christian. Perhaps they are Messianic Jews? At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Thus, we either accept Paul's writings as Scripture - which means that they cannot contradict Christ's teachings - or we become the authoritative determinant of WHAT is Scripture - a road that is a dead-end one that cannot lead to God.

The heresy of Marcion continues, it appears...

Regards

 

[jgredline]

You then go on to give examples comparing the OT to the NT dispensations...Your examples are red herrings. Paul would certainly not have it that way. Regards

You are misunderstanding completely what I am trying to point out.

Ths question -

Are you going to live by the latest instructions that Christ gave by Paul or stay stuck in a Jewish/earthly kngdom message meant for Jews who are destined for an earthly kingdom or...

Move on to where the body of Christ is destined for and the truths associated with the body of Christ?

Are you a Jew in the kingdom or a regenerated saint int he body of Christ? Which is it - can't be both - they are separate.

God bless

Ah, now that I have read some other posts, I see what is going on. I hadn't realized that there are "anti-Paul" people who are Christian. Perhaps they are Messianic Jews? At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Thus, we either accept Paul's writings as Scripture - which means that they cannot contradict Christ's teachings - or we become the authoritative determinant of WHAT is Scripture - a road that is a dead-end one that cannot lead to God.

The heresy of Marcion continues, it appears...

Regards

Francis
Welcome to the jungle :D

 

[AVBunyan]

At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Regards

But there are contradictions...yet...both are right.

Allow me to clarify if I may.

One example - I used it before but folks seem to miss it.

Repeat of earlier post above...

c. Gospels - before Christ died - Matt 6:14-15 You don't forgive - the Father will not forgive you
Paul - we have forgivenss now (Eph. 1:7) and it is not based upon our forgiving others (Eph. 4:32)

They both contradict - yet both are right - giving forgiveness in order to get forgivness is right under the Gospels prior to Calvary.

Today we don't get forgiveness by forgiving others - we have forgiveness because of Calvary -

Both different - both are right

There are many other examples also.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Regards

But there are contradictions...yet...both are right.

Allow me to clarify if I may.

One example - I used it before but folks seem to miss it.

Repeat of earlier post above...

c. Gospels - before Christ died - Matt 6:14-15 You don't forgive - the Father will not forgive you
Paul - we have forgivenss now (Eph. 1:7) and it is not based upon our forgiving others (Eph. 4:32)

They both contradict - yet both are right - giving forgiveness in order to get forgivness is right under the Gospels prior to Calvary.

Today we don't get forgiveness by forgiving others - we have forgiveness because of Calvary -

Both different - both are right

There are many other examples also.

God bless

Certainly. It helps when one remembers that the Bible is not CNN, but is a telling of history with a theological meaning. Thus, the number of angels at the tomb differs - not because the whole story is made up, but because each human author is expressing something at a theological level. The Bible is not ONLY a narrative of history. Once we get past that, we can understand that on the surface, the Bible seems to contradict, when properly understood, these contradictions pass away.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself.

...But there are contradictions...yet...both are right....

Certainly. It helps when one remembers that the Bible is not CNN, but it often uses the telling of history with a theological meaning. The PRIMARY purpose of Scriptures is to teach men about God. Thus, the number of angels at the tomb differs - not because the whole story is made up, but because each human author is expressing something at a theological level. Luke often is refering to discipleship and often utilizes pairs of men to alert us to it. Thus, it is not surprising that there would be a pair of angels in Luke's narrative of the empty tomb. The Bible is not ONLY a narrative of history. Once we get past that, we can understand that on the surface, the Bible seems to contradict, when properly understood, these contradictions pass away.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Welcome to the jungle

LOL! I am actively participating in an 11,500 post (so far) thread at another site... Some things never change.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Welcome to the jungle

LOL! I am actively participating in an 11,500 post (so far) thread at another site... Some things never change.

Regards

Let me guess Calvinism vs armenism
or Lordship vs free grace
or predestination?

 

[Georges]

You then go on to give examples comparing the OT to the NT dispensations...Your examples are red herrings. Paul would certainly not have it that way. Regards

You are misunderstanding completely what I am trying to point out.

Ths question -

Are you going to live by the latest instructions that Christ gave by Paul or stay stuck in a Jewish/earthly kngdom message meant for Jews who are destined for an earthly kingdom or...

Move on to where the body of Christ is destined for and the truths associated with the body of Christ?

Are you a Jew in the kingdom or a regenerated saint int he body of Christ? Which is it - can't be both - they are separate.

God bless

Ah, now that I have read some other posts, I see what is going on. I hadn't realized that there are "anti-Paul" people who are Christian. Perhaps they are Messianic Jews? At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Thus, we either accept Paul's writings as Scripture - which means that they cannot contradict Christ's teachings - or we become the authoritative determinant of WHAT is Scripture - a road that is a dead-end one that cannot lead to God.

The heresy of Marcion continues, it appears...

Regards

What is the Marcion heresy?

 

[Georges]

Marcion (the gnostic) was another Paul only guy.....Hmmm...gnositc verbage....where have I read some of that before......?

Compared to Paul, Marcion considered the Gospels and other Epistles inferior and uninspired....right up your alley AV.... You were the one who said Paul's words over Christ's...right? If I'm wrong about the quote please correct me...

From what I had read, I believe Tertullian ripped Marcion a new bohiney because of his Paul only beliefs...

 

[Bruchko]

I've been reading your PDF. I've only read the first 5 Chapters or so, but for the most part I find its arguments pretty weak. I still have a lot to read but I feel pretty confident that after all 430 pages of it I'll still be standing where I am now. Only with a greater understanding of the scripture I believe.

As far as contradictions... One of your arguments is Paul preaches you dont have to do works, yet James says you do. I think I covered this in another post but perhaps not. I don't see it as a contradiction. Paul is saying your works aren't what save you, you can't win your way into heaven by being a good person because not one of us is good. He's not saying run a muck, do what ever you want because Grace has your back. James isn't saying works is part of what save you. He's telling us that our actions are a display of our true heart. It's the same with my wife, my actions show my true heart attitude, not that fact that I say I love you. She wouldn't believe me when I said it if I never did anything to display it. The two messages work together not against each other.

You can pick out a few versus through out the Bible to almost back up anything you want to profess to believe. You have to look at all of them on a subject in context to get the real message.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Compared to Paul, Marcion considered the Gospels and other Epistles inferior and uninspired....right up your alley AV....

2. You were the one who said Paul's words over Christ's...right? If I'm wrong about the quote please correct me...

1. They are not inferior or uninspired - you misrepresent but actually I believe you misunderstand me.

2. In doctrinal matters yes because Christ himself told Paul to give out the latest instructions.

Question Georges - do you still sacrifice lambs? Still in the bible you know?

 

[francisdesales]

Welcome to the jungle

LOL! I am actively participating in an 11,500 post (so far) thread at another site... Some things never change.

Let me guess Calvinism vs armenism
or Lordship vs free grace
or predestination?

"All of the above" was the original thread topic, but it seems like every subject has been broached! Today, people are discussing the Eucharist among other things. Inevitably, though, it does return to free will vs. God's sovereignty.

Here is the current link, if you care to follow the current conversation - which now I am being questioned on "no salvation outside the Church" (now at 11800 posts...) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1550381/posts?page=11827#11827

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

What is the Marcion heresy?

Marcion was a man who could not contemplate the idea that the God of the Old Testament was the same as the New Testament. Thus, he presented a set of Scriptures that tossed out the Old Testament and most of the New Testament. He kept Luke and most of the Pauline Corpus, as it was anti-Semetic enough for him.

It was such heresy that prompted the Catholic Church to set the canon definitively.

Regards

 

[xicali]

These word had never left paradise until Jesus appear to Paul several times during his ministry, and was able to give us The gospel of Grace.

Acts 1:10-12 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Well Acts seems to portray that Jesus' return would be as dramatic as His ascenstion. Didn't know He was making special appearances for paul?

Well Acts seems to portray He made special appearnces for Paul...
Acts 9:15 Acts 22:21

Luke also says that Jesus said to Paul "... the Lord speaking. 'Quick!' he said to me. 'Leave Jerusalem immediately, because they will not accept your testimony about me." Acts 22:18

What gospel was Jesus preaching? ..why is there any need for another gospel? ..don't tell me Jesus preached the gospel of grace because He didn't.

Jesus was preaching the wisdom of God under the Law... and yes there was need for another gospel to save the beliver.

"...since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." 1 Corinthians 1:21

Jesus could not teach Grace because he was a servant of the Law, for Moses was still in force.

Jesus showed up and the blind could see. Paul meets Jesus and he gets blind? Hmmm.

Blinded by the light? Humm I wonder how bright is the truth. When you pass on and follow the light, please don't take the lighted tunnel because it's a trap. I recomend you to follow the dark tunnel because the lighted one is not for you. Somehow I feel youre not going to listen to me hehehheeh :roll: :P

 

[mutzrein]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

Thanks Mutz - OK a challenge (friendly challenge)
Show me from scripture Christ's message to the Jews regarding himself while on earth.

There is reasoing to my madness :-D

God bless

Several passages: Example John Ch 5, Ch 10 Jesus preached that He had come to give life.